Your Top 10-100 Players Of The Century?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Viola Star, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #26 Tropeiro, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    What do you value most? Highest peak, consistency at high level, how he was considered in the season/at the time or the performances in the national team?

    Ronaldinho had a higher peak and since the end of 2003, early 2004 was already considered by the Spanish media (Mundo Deportivo) as the best player in the world - even before being elected - and that was until 2006. After the failure of Brazil in the WC his hype went down and between injuries and a controversial photo showing Ronaldinho out of shape at the beginning of 2007 his high-level almost ended (some glimpses in 09/10 with Milan).

    Xavi, on the other side, had a arguably smaller peak (he was never really considered the best in the world) but both in clubs and in the national team he had a period of high level maybe between 2004 and 2011/2012 or at least 2004 and 2008 -2011.

    Highest Peak: Ronaldinho
    Consistency: Xavi
    How was considered at the time: Ronaldinho
    National Team Performance: Xavi

    In general... I feel OK if you put Xavi above Ronaldinho.
     
  2. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Ronaldinho had 24 Assists (Transfermarkt) in 2005/2006 out of 96 Barcelona Goals, it means that he assisted 25% of all Barcelona Goals in the matches he played.

    #16 Post explain his impact better.
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #28 carlito86, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    I'm not saying xavi definitely had the higher peak but what I am doing is attempting to bring some balance

    1.)Xavis peak as arguably the greatest central midfielder of all time is underrated

    2.)lack of ballon dors doesn't prove or disprove your point
    Many countless inferior players to prime xavi won the ballon dor
    Some players who were arguably even greater than xavi also didn't win the ballon dor(1960 ferenc puskas)

    Ballon dor is usually a great indicator for who is the worlds premier performer but it has always followed a inconsistent criteria going back 50-60 years

    The tie breaker here is xavi with a dominant support cast and supposedly past his prime was able to produce arguably the greatest ever european championship final performance vs Italy 2012 where pirlo didn't even see the ball let alone sniff it

    ThIs was the most dominant performance ever witnessed in a major international final orchestrated by xavi (even more dominant than Brazil vs Italy 1970 IMO)

    We could add to this xavi almost always turned up in major finals
    Prime Ronaldinho literally didn't turn up in 1 major final in his career (not a single one-French cups are irrelevant in the context of this discussion)

    How is it not even brought up that in his greatest season 05/06 he was completely subdued in the 2 biggest games he played vs Arsenal and France

    I mean I've been extremely critical of Romario maybe sometimes even too much for not turning up in the 2 biggest games he played in 93/94 vs Milan and Italy but no serious analyst ever says he was the GOAT here so he can to some degree be excused

    Dinho 05/06 is referenced as a all time peak but he failed to decide the 2 biggest games he played and not only that but was largely subdued
    However unglamorous Xavis playing style was he churned out 7-9 out of 10 performances game in game out
    No dips in form
    He did this consistently for at least 3 years

    Zinedine zidane and Ronaldinho were criticised in their prime for going absent for lengthy periods of a season
    This is something that cannot be attributed to xavi (but can to iniesta who was atrocious in 2009/10 but somehow inexplicably finished runner up in the ballon dor seemingly for scoring 1 well assisted goal by cesc fabregas vs the Netherlands

    IRonic considering fabregas who assisted the winner in a world cup final
    Was "objectively" and demonstrably superior to iniesta in 2009/10 (check who scored ratings)
    Despite this fabregas finished outside the top 10 ballon dor which further demonstrates that the ballon can't on its own always be used as a foolproof indicator for who are the very best players
     
  4. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #29 Tropeiro, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
    Kicker ratings for Ronaldinho was 2.5, not bad really: https://www.kicker.de/755887/aufstellung/fc-barcelona/fc-arsenal
    https://www.kicker.de/ronaldinho-28059/spieler/champions-league/2005-06/fc-barcelona
    Kicker also had Ronaldinho with 6 instead of 5 of Transfermarkt that combines to 25 assists in the total.

    Also Ronaldinho had no easy route to won the CL, he just surpassed the strong Milan side (TOP1 ranked) and the strong Chelsea side (TOP 3).
    He had involvement in 3 out of 4 goals scored for Barcelona in these matches.

    A Milan perhaps stronger than the Milan that destroyed the United in the next season


    2:25 That's a legendary high-quality assist against TOP1 ranked club according ELO (Just put out 2005/2006 there: http://elofootball.com/index.php#club).

    That's a very high peak with 52-53% direct involvement of his team goals while playing as dynamic playmaker, a 86 positive points season (Elo Club) with UEFA Champions League conquered, La Liga and Spanish Supercup with a high quaiity end product against the TOP teams.
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    If you're just going to copy and paste ELO rankings this is a futile discussion

    Milan 2005/06 a team that finished 3rd place in their domestic league 18 points off inter Milan is nowhere near to being the highest rated team in the world
    Their defensive record in the champions league was nothing even remotely special in 05/06 (made even worse by the fact they were placed in possibly the easiest groupstage a "big team" could ever hope for)

    I don't rate Milan under ancelotti that highly for two simple reasons
    1.)they were never able to replicate their champions league results in the league
    2.)Most of their champions league final runs came about due to fortuitous circumstances (facing easy and/or obscure opponents,5th place PL side liverpool in a CL final, how lucky is this?
    Incomplete teams as Manchester United 06/07
    Etc


    As I said without taking too much gloss of Ronaldinho as I realise he is idolised here.
    1 season at that historic level isn't enough IMO to place him as de facto 3rd best player of the 21st century
    It's bizarre, nonsensical and frankly downright delusional


    Now on a side note you like myself consider neymar as a superior talent to Ronaldinho
    We however do so on different grounds

    What I'm struggling to understand is how you are able to harmonise what you think about neymar with these ELO rankings/goal involvements which unequivocally demonstrate that Ronaldinho in his prime was superior and more valuable than neymar has ever been at any stage
     
  6. Viola Star

    Viola Star Member

    Fiorentina
    Italy
    May 9, 2006
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #31 Viola Star, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    I said he started most games and he did. 21 league games out
    of 34. 10 of 19 European games equals 31 out of 53 starts. He
    likely was injured in April of that year which was why he missed
    some games. Neither of us can remember that far back.
    Eh? He has around 107 goals/47 assists this century for his club
    in a top tier league.

    Modric has 55 goals/95 assists for his clubs. 21 assists/21 goals
    came in a third tier league so 34 goals/74 assists for clubs at
    the top level.

    Speaking of Ronaldino, I remember that I was more impressed with
    Riquelme for Villarreal in la la Liga around that time-frame. The reason
    Riquelme isn't higher is because I've lost track of his work since
    he departed for S. America.

    I think I probably placed Roy Keane too high on the list too.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    But oh well, Scholes is top ten material.
     
  8. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar lacks one big/historical season.

    Historical seasons imo: Ronaldo 96/97, 97/98; Cruyff 71/72, 73/74; Platini 83/84; Pelé 58, 62, 63, 65; Zico 81; Ronaldinho 05/06; Cristiano Ronaldo 07/08, 11/12; Messi 10/11, 14/15, maybe some Maradona season (85/86?) and etc. You can think about others.

    Neymar still does not have a season like that, and with these consecutive injuries, his level is no longer the same..
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Historical or not I don't see how you are able to harmonise the both together
    It's either his peak is higher based on consistency, tangible end product(goals, assists, key passes etc)

    Or Ronaldinhos is based on Elo and some marquee high profile moments (5 or 6 that neymar never had)

    This subjective application of sources is really getting frustrating
    You simply cannot have it both ways




    Edit:
    I love the way you just awarded Pele with 4 historic campaigns but pretended Messi and Ronaldo only had two
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #35 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    IF R9 of Barcelona was historic than without a shadow of a doubt so was Messi in 2011/12
    Matter of fact Messi 09/10 arguably already equalled and than surpassed R9 96/97
    With same goals tally, but better team play as demonstrated by his assists,better conventional dribbling, better solo goals (R9 could never score a solo goal as Messi vs real zaragoza)

    Id also take his "peak" performance against arsenal in the champions league R16 above R9 vs either one of compostela or valencia

    As has been covered I believe CR 09/10 was also a higher quality player than R9 of Barcelona
    Just a better all round threat with comparable end product (benefitting from a comparable team edge too)
     
  11. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #36 Tropeiro, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    What? Ronaldinho had higher peak compared with Neymar.




    Level and Level.

    Messi 10/11 + CA11 and Messi 14/15 + CA15 are still superior to a Cristiano's 07/08 + EC08 and Cristiano's 11/12 + EC, specially if we just consider the club season.

    Cristiano Ronaldo just has only two really historical seasons that could be compared with Ronaldinho 05-06 in terms of conquests, influences in big matches, direct involvement and in terms of improving his club.

    Ronaldinho 52-53% Direct Involvement in his team goals, high performance in decisive games and with a CL, La Liga and Spanish Supercup in a 86 Positive Points seasons is above all the rest of the great seasons Ronaldo had including 06/07, 09/10, 10/11 that are likely the rest of his TOP5 season.

    Just the legendary assist vs TOP1 ranked Milan, the solo goal vs TOP3 ranked Chelsea, both in the KO UCL matches + a 10/10 performance against Real Madrid (arguably better than any match that Cristiano had against Barcelona) is enough to kick easily any Cristiano Ronaldo season (exception made the two legendary seasons of 11/12 and 07/08 that are also historical, we can further here if you want).

    With Ronaldinho playing at his highest level, the Spaniards had no doubt that they were facing the best player in the world at that time, that never happened with Cristiano while in Madrid.

    Neymar while more consistent never reached that level.
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #37 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    False equivalence
    Madrid 2005/06 categorically cannot be compared to the Barcelona teams faced by Cristiano Ronaldo particularly the one under pep guardiola 2009-2012

    Madrid 05/06 can objectively be compared however
    to Madrid 18/19 (a declining team in need of rebuilding)
    Don't know what this is meant to prove or disprove
    Ronaldinhos challenger for best player in Spain was riquelme who played for villarreal
    In Europe it was Thierry Henry who scored 30 goals in all competitions(2005/06)

    Cristianos challenger in Spain was Lionel Messi
    A player who scored 73 goals in a single season
    28 assists
    Most dribbles in Europe
    Most through balls in Europe
    (2012)

    "Spaniards" thought they knew what greatness was but had to reevaluate their definition since 2009

    Tropeiro you are comparing apples with pears
     
  13. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #38 Tropeiro, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Neither Barcelona in the Ronaldinho's time could be compared to a Real Madrid teams between 2010 - 2018.
    The only Real Madrid that could be compared of Barcelona 05/06 is the Real Madrid of 09/10, and Cristiano Ronaldo did not have 1/10 of Ronaldinho's performance in that season.

    Cristiano Ronaldo in 2011/2012 had 60 Goals and 15 Assists and what? He still had less % of direct goal involvement than Ronaldinho, that doesn't mean nothing.

    60 Goals (46 Non-PK Goals) + 15 Assists 4902 Minutes 55 Matches - 1 Non-PK Goal or assist each 80,5 minutes
    Team Goals: 160 Ronaldo Involvement: 46,9% w/o includind PKs: 38,1%


    Messi had amazing stats, but he won what in 2011/2012? Champions League? Not really. La Liga? Not really.
    Spanish Supercup (OK) and a match vs Santos that ended up as 10º in the Brazilian League that years (Brazilian League is more or less of the level of the French League nowadays, so it is like facing a Nimes).
    Also according EloClub Barcelona lost his first position to Real Madrid this season.

    Madrid also had their problems this season, they are the TOP1 ranked club in the World and expected to won against Bayern and well... that was not what happened.

    These the Ratings of Kicker vs Bayern 12:
    https://www.kicker.de/1429324/aufstellung/bayern-muenchen-14/real-madrid
    https://www.kicker.de/1429326/aufstellung/real-madrid/bayern-muenchen-14
    Seems that Ronaldo didn't had much impact and his rating was 3.5 (that is worse than the 2.5 rating of Ronaldinho vs Arsenal for example)

    Ronaldinho won more things than Ronaldo 11/12 that year (La Liga, CL and Spanish Supercup), had more direct involvelment in his team goals (52-53% vs 47%), had better performance in the El Clasico being applauded by the own organized rival crowd in the Santiago Bernabeu, and had better big game performances than Ronaldo.
    Also Barcelona without Ronaldinho in the few matches they had struggled with some bad results.
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Not to take sides in the argument, but I did a bit of research to add an interesting Big Soccer source for Barcelona MOTM votes for 2008/09 (since I remembered Dazer had referred to the 2005/06 tallies, with Eto'o just pipping Ronaldinho - I found reference to his post today and they both had nearly 90 points):
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/fc-barcelona-2008-2009-motm-thread-part-2.946826/page-16
    Player Of The Season after 55 votings:
    105.5 - Messi
    69.5 - Iniesta
    61.5 - Xavi
    50.5 - Alves
    39 - Eto'o
    38 - Henry
    25 - Valdés
    18 - Puyol
    16 - Bojan
    20 - Touré
    13 - Márquez
    11 - Piqué
    9 - Pinto
    6.5 - Busquets
    4.5 - Gudjohnsen
    1 - Hleb, Keita

    Barcelona 2-0 Manchester United - Voting now closed
    41 Xavi
    34 Piqué
    32 Iniesta
    24 Eto'o
    16 Puyol
    5 Messi
    2 Henry, Valdés
    1 Touré
    =================
    MOTM v Manchester United
    5 Xavi
    3 Piqué
    1 Iniesta

    So, on one hand Xavi falls behind Iniesta by the end of the season (I had found the previous thread first, and when that ended in February he was still ahead of him by a fairly significant gap but not a massive one). On the other hand maybe Xavi actually stacks up a bit better there than according to DBS Calcio ratings (although of course they are for La Liga only so that might require further investigation). And he gets the nod for MOTM vs Man Utd (I do remember I and various others leaning towards Iniesta in that game actually, or picking him out for praise etc).

    Maybe since none of us could watch all the games it helps a little, when talking of most consistent Barcelona players. It doesn't value any one game over others of course though, or determine the opinion about level of play by each player in each game to pick out the really great performances for extra points (which might also be relevant points when assessing 2005/06 of course).
     
    carlito86 and Tropeiro repped this.
  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #40 Tropeiro, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Other thread about 05*06 season/time: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/who-is-the-most-important-player-of-the-team.232382/
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2005-06-fcb-man-of-the-match-thread-r-part-ii.312802/page-17

    Until the match vs Arsenal:

    Barcelona was already the La Liga Champions there too.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I just found that too (I needn't have bothered to search if I'd known you'd got it already lol!).

    I did think Ronaldinho vs Chelsea at home was a great one - this poster (who if he still posts will be surprised to be quoted so much later than he wrote this lol!) agrees:
    As do most of the posters I think:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/2005-06-fcb-man-of-the-match-thread-r-part-ii.312802/page-6

    But looking at Real Madrid 2 vs Barcelona 6 from 2008/09 (which I had a check for), to try to be balanced again, I'd point out Xavi conclusively topped the votes there, as can be seen via the thread I posted before of course.
     
    Tropeiro repped this.
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #42 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Comparing percentage involvement for a team that almost scored double is insane(Ronaldinho simply never had the durability and consistency to play as many games in a season as Ronaldo let alone be involved in 50%+ of goals for a team that scored 170+ goals

    As has been covered and I hate to burst your bubble at 21 years old Cristiano Ronaldo already matched prime Ronaldinho for percentage involvement
    Ronaldinho gaucho 2005/06
    Age:26 years old
    Stats(individual and team)
    26 goals (10 penalties)+24 assists in 46 games
    Barcelona Scored 120 goals in all competitions (league, Copa Del Rey,champions league,Supercopa España)

    Season
    2006/07
    Cristiano Ronaldo
    Age:21 years old
    Stats (individual and team)
    23 goals(inc 5 penalties-all earned through dribbling)+22 assists in 51 matches
    Manchester United scored 120 goals in all competitions

    Involvement without penalties
    Cristiano was involved in 33% of teams goals
    Ronaldinho was involved in 33% of teams goals


    All the while CR was offering considerably more dribbling runs and defensive work rate


    Now again you are cornered so you will change the criteria for evaluation
    Percentage involvement doesn't matter
    Elo rankings do

    When dbs calico places 2011/12 CR as a demonstrably superior season to Ronaldinho 2005/06 dbs calico also doesn't matter
    Changing the goalposts continously and it's frankly boring
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #43 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    05/06 Barcelona with
    Ronaldinho in his prime
    Puyol in his prime
    Deco in his prime
    Etoo in his prime

    Is to be compared with 09/10 Madrid with
    Cristiano in his prime
    Kaka past his prime
    Guti past his prime
    Raul past his prime
    Benz on the bench
    Higuain in his prime(still only 2 CL goals)
    :cautious:
     
  19. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #44 Tropeiro, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Comparing the 2006/2007 season of Cristiano Ronaldo with the 2005/2006 season of Ronaldinho is a clown thing. In all paramaters to comparition the Portuguese ends up small.



    1===> Direct Involvement and Level

    Ronaldinho had 26 Goals + 24 or 25 Assists (Transfermarkt + Kicker) out of 96 Barcelona Goals he could be envolved, that is a 53% direct involvement.
    Cristiano had 23 Goals + 20 Assists (Transfermarkt) out of 109 Goals that is 39,5% direct involvement.
    ESM Votes: Ronaldinho 7 Months, Cristiano Ronaldo 4

    Ronaldinho >> Cristiano.

    2 ===> Titles

    Ronaldinho (UCL, League, Spanish Supercup) >> Cristiano (League)


    3 ===>Big Games

    Cristiano Ronaldo strugled against big teams that time (7 Matches, 1 Goals + 1 assist: #16 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cristiano-ronaldo-best-season.2103915/), Kaka with two 1 ratings of Kicker made him look like an indigent.
    Ronaldinho with a clutch elite assist vs TOP1 ranked Milan, with a solo goal vs TOP3 ranked Chelsea and a 10/10 performances against Real Madrid en El Clasico kicks off Cristiano Ronaldo's 06/07 season into space.

    Ronaldinho >>> Cristiano


    4 ===> Elo Points Improvement (Club Elo)

    Barcelona (86 Points), Manchester United (60 Points)
    Plus I have to check but Barcelona without Ronaldinho that season lost some ELO points too, that makes his season even better.

    Ronaldinho > Cristiano


    Final Result:

    (05/06) Ronaldinho 4 - (06/07) Cristiano Ronaldo 0.

    Not even close, not even funny.
    06/07 CRonaldo season is not a legendary season, on the other hand, Ronaldinho 05/06 yes it was legendary.
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #45 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    This is voodoo
    Barcelona scored 120 goals in all competitions
    Not 96 goals so i don't know why you insist with this when it is demonstrably false

    2.)Ronaldinho scored a disproportionate amount of penalties and you have no evidence or at least haven't presented any evidence that he earned any of his penalties either with his passing or dribbling

    CR scored 5 penalties in 06/07 and earned all with his dribbling so should be given full credit (the footage is there if you require it)

    3.)Ronaldinho categorically was not directly involved In 53% of all goals scored by Barcelona
    this is a lie

    4.)In all likelihood CR 06/07 also pre assisted more goals than Ronaldinho 05/06(do you have footage for 7-9 pre assists? )

    5.)CR 06/07 almost certainly dribbled more like considerably more than Ronaldinho 05/06

    If you want to give the edge for Ronaldinho for turning up and taking over big games that's fine and acceptable.
    But don't insist with lies when we both know I've dismantled your "percentage involvement" argument
     
  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #46 Tropeiro, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    [​IMG]

    Kicker had 1 more assist in the CL campaing, that means 25 assists.

    The best comparison is 07/08 Cristiano and 11/12 Cristiano with 05/06 Ronaldinho. I can make this comparison if you want.

    There is no comparison here. Cristiano Ronaldo 06/07 and even his peak as a player has been superinflated these days.
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #47 carlito86, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    jekyll and hyde it seems these days the superinflating is coming from one of your multiple personalities
     
  23. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #48 Tropeiro, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    One thing has nothing to do with the other, between 2007-2012 Cristiano was actually one of the best players in all history. As already mentioned, there are very few players with a level of Cristiano between 2008-2012 and even after 2012 (for me even until 2014-2015) or with a historic seasons (like Cristiano 11/12 and 07/08)
    That has nothing to do with Ronaldinho at his best season being conclusively better than Cristiano 06/07.
    or even his prime being more or less at the same level:
    So far, Ronaldinho 12 votes vs Cristiano's 9 here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cr7-vs-ronaldinho-prime-only.2087789/



    With all Cristiano's level at his prime I still put him below Messi, Cruyff and Pelé for example. You put him below Maradona.
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Doubling down when you clearly contradicted yourself
    One of the highest peaks of all time "that very few players ever reached" cannot be superinflated
    Its a freaking oxymoron
    Either you don't know the meaning of the word
    Or you do
    Or one of your multiple personalities kicked in in which case I won't blame you for this
     
  25. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Of couse it can be superinflated, you - and many others Cristiano fanboys - are constantly trying to paint a imaginary scenary where Cristiano Ronaldo at his prime was much better than prime Ronaldinho (you even made a topic about it, of course just exposing one side of the coin) and that's not really the case. Ronaldinho arguably reached higher peak than Cristiano in his best season.
     

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