The best games of the best players

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, certainly quality set up play by Bergkamp there, making the space and angle and then playing an excellent pass in terms of timing, placement, weight etc that is pretty much a pre-assist (although there is a bit of pinball after the ball is put into the middle), or key pass as it'd be called now I suppose (I think!).

    I'm not sure Vegan10 posted the ratings for Coppa Italia games on his thread did he (I know he posted some for European Cup games though)?
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Close before the opposition goal (for the 1-1) he has also a good and effective piece of skill, where he wrong-foots three opponents on a poor and uneven pitch. Wins the foul. It starts at 1:33:30. With good reading and anticipation he wins quite a few possessions.

    One-and-a-half minute later, after the free kick, it was a goal for the opponent, by Gullit (Lombardo involved too); who plays somewhere else in the game Ferri through his legs at his first touch and starts an attack that way. He has a 6.90 at DBScalcio for that season; then in 1994-95 also a high 6.63 for his Milan games but (imho) a rather strange 6.2 for the Sampdoria matches that year, with the sort of productivity to show for it.

    Anyway, leadleader had a month ago this as a tip to look for.
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, that is nice skill and awareness by Bergkamp, and it is replayed I see (I like those nutmegs at times - I remember sometimes Savicevic vs Milan in Yugoslavia in 1988 did a few, even if now that video disappeared from Youtube and the quite a bit worse game by him in the leg in Milan is there instead, but anyway I guess if playing for Red Star Belgrade Bergkamp's play would have brought more crowd reaction lol....though I know Coppa Italia wasn't always thought of in the same way as for example the FA Cup).

    And that is a typical header of Gullit for the goal I think isn't it. I'm not surprsied that you would be impressed by, or notice, Lombardo and Jugovic anyway. I guess you already saw them a bit yourself back in those days too, but certainly I saw enough of them (but can also see some more now via Youtube too) to recognise their qualities too. Lombardo once scored an impressive goal vs Forest in a pre-season friendly I seem to remember actually! I put them both in these squads of course too (although used Jugovic for just 70 minutes, and Lombardo for 45 in the 'tournament' we did!):
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/a...sion-rules-squads-info.2105345/#post-38010364
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/a...sion-rules-squads-info.2105345/#post-38010381
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/a...sults-updates-fixtures.2105346/#post-38019022
    Yugoslavia (4-1-2-3) - All-Time World Cup - Football tactics and formations - ShareMyTactics.com
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/a...updates-fixtures.2105346/page-3#post-38050128
    Italy Reserves (4-2-1-3) - All-Time World Cup - Football tactics and formations - ShareMyTactics.com
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    1429223130174734343 is not a valid tweet id



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Decisive blocks after another Neto mistake, playing out of defense, combination play, shot on the crossbar, almost the winning assist... He didn't win the game but it was one of those (rare) games where I saw him doing it all - a todocampista per the Spanish press.

    ----------------------



    I thought he was good in the first ten minutes and good in the last half hour, but pretty bad and meaningless in between. Admittedly, his two attacking partners did close to nothing, when set up by him.

    https://www.espn.co.uk/football/bar...-as-barcelona-salvage-draw-at-athletic-bilbao
     
  5. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021
    Ironically when Maradona scored against England there was some attempts to “rob” him of his goal of the century with accusations it was an own goal, which were debunked, but there’s a much stronger case that Messi’s ‘maradona goal’ against Real Madrid in 2011 was an own goal (shot off target, deflected off the defender into the net).
    I think it’s still officially awarded to Messi but I wonder if this is why they did not nominate it for the FIFA Puskas Award for 2011.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That's interesting - sometimes these things are easier to spot than other times it seems.

    I'm tentatively considering making some Youtube videos for best goals/assists by a suggested top 125 players of the 2nd half of the 20th century, or circa 1948-2001 (no more than 3 goals, and 3 assists each, and progressively less as I'd move down the list), and so have been thinking about good options for a few players, and I realise now that this goal by Dalglish vs Chelsea in 77/78 takes a deflection (two Youtube commenters said so, and I think it does too now, even though at first glance it seems perfectly placed by Dalglish):
    Liverpool 2-0 Chelsea 1977-78 - YouTube
    (From 0:27)
    So potentially I'd put this one in instead now
    Ipswich 1-1 Liverpool 1977-78 (Dalglish cracker) - YouTube

    So this similarly takes a deflection to result in the ball going in a better place I suppose then (and would have been heading wide otherwise):
    Lionel Messi LEGENDARY Solo Goal vs Real Madrid ||HD|| - YouTube
    Just as with the Dalglish one actually, it does seem a bit impossible to pause the video in the best place to judge (just before 0:26 here!)
    Messi’s Bernabéu magic (2011) - YouTube
    As it happens, regardless of that, I had had a think about what Messi's best goal might be in my view and decided on the Getafe one (the one that actually most closely resembles Maradona vs England).
     
  7. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021


    It’s certainly difficult to see clearly because of the speed of the play. But if you pause at 28 seconds, slow the video down to 0.25 in the speed setting, play the video and then watch closely the direction the ball seems to go before it reaches Sergio Ramos and the direction it goes in after passing Ramos, it seems to change in my opinion.
    It wouldn’t be very surprising really, running at full speed, on his weaker right foot and falling over as he shoots, you might expect him to scuff it wide of the goal tbh.

    Making a top 3 goals and assists would be very hard for most of the great attacking players, because most have a wide variety of goal types, I think it would become quite subjective, but still probably a more worthwhile interesting activity than just collecting stats.
    If I had to boil Maradona’s goal catalogue down to just 3, I think I might go with:

    2nd goal Vs England 1986 World Cup
    2nd goal Vs Red Star Belgrade Away Match 1982/83 Cup Winners Cup (This was applauded by Belgrade fans, similar to how Messi was applauded by Betis fans for his chip goal that finished second in the 2019 Puskas Award)
    2nd goal (the long shot) Vs Lazio Home Match Serie A 1984/85 OR goal Vs Verona Home Match Serie A 1985/86

    The caveat here is that this excludes all the goals he scored before he turned 20, because there’s no footage of them.

    I won’t even go into his assists because it’s too difficult to choose between his long passes, through balls and solo runs and crosses....
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, it still seems somewhat difficult to be sure whether it has hit his leg or just gone past before his leg reaches where the ball had been, but for sure the ball doesn't just go straight through his leg anyway! Maybe it does seem like, based on the angle of the shot, it could be heading wide and does deflect but hard to be sure.

    Yeah, all those have crossed my mind for Maradona goals, and I was fairly sure the England goal and the Lazio chip (or more like a 'pitch' in golf terms, as like you say it was from quite long range) would be going in. I probably wasn't going to put in the Belgium semi-final goal (2nd one obviously) although hadn't ruled it out, and without thinking too much about goals in Argentina I had in mind for example a free kick for Argentinos Juniors vs Boca Juniors.

    I'm thinking of the assist at 1:48 here to Careca:
    1987/88, Serie A, Napoli - Roma 1-2 (21) - YouTube
    And the one vs Juventus here at 1:31:
    1987/88, Serie A, Juventus - Napoli 3-1 (26) - YouTube
    Both in losses funnily enough!
    In theory one of the ones to Burruchaga in the World Cup could be the 3rd, or the one to Caniggia in 1990 even, but I know he got some good ones for Barcelona, and there is the available footage from Argentina too (although it seems like some of his best plays didn't result in goals for Boca Juniors for example - that's always the thing, for any of the players - if the team-mate doesn't convert the chance it's not an assist).
    There are some other long/medium passes, like vs AC Milan, or some for Sevilla too IIRC, but if I put that one in vs Roma maybe I'd be reluctant to go with another somewhat similar pass, when there are various other good options for assists by him.
     
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  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm possibly torn between the one from 3:40 here for the other assist now
    Maradona assists and passing skills (Boca jrs.) - YouTube
    And the one at the start here
    1980 (December 16) Argentina 5-Switzerland 0 (Friendly).avi - YouTube
    Although I see Matigol did a top 50 Maradona assists video (with those being at #19 and #4, and the Juventus assist at #5 and Roma one at #39 I think it was although I think I still err to that as my pick for a long-ish pass by him myself, while the one to Caniggia in the 1990 WC gets top spot)
    Diego Maradona ● Top 50 Most Impossible Assists Ever (HD) - YouTube
    The free-kick I was thinking of is at 2:11 here (I suppose this game by him is relevant for this thread too, as somewhere among his best and/or most significant probably)
    RECUERDOS! Argentinos 5 Boca 3 - MARADONA GATTI - YouTube
    I'm not really sure at this point whether I would be having that as the other goal I'd select though.
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think perhaps what I'll do if I do end up making the videos for best goals/assists as described is to have a 'bonus section' for the top 4 players (which are set to be Pele, Cruyff, Maradona, Platini) with extra scenes and it could just be two more goals and two more assists for Maradona (already I was thinking of one disallowed goals by Platini and one disallowed assist by Cruyff plus the two famed computer-recreated Pele goals with actual footage not available).

    So then I could have on the video, whether in or out of my chosen 3 best goals, the one vs Red Star Belgrade, the Belgium 2nd goal and a free-kick from Argentina (I say a free-kick rather than specifically that one vs Boca I posted because there is a similar one from another game where the goalie is set in a better place, so potentially that could go in instead). Then perhaps also the assist to Caniggia would be in too indeed.

    Back on the main topic, albeit not videos with all touches I think it's clear, here are recent uploads for Dragan Stojkovic vs France from 1988 (World Cup qualifying) and Robert Pires vs Brazil from 2001 (Confederations Cup)
    Dragan Stojkovic Piksi ● Goal and Skills ● Yugoslavia 3-2 France 19.11.1988 ● WCQ 1990 - YouTube
    Robert Pires vs Brasil - FIFA Confederations Cup 2001 - YouTube
     
  12. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021

    I don’t know if you’re going 100% with technical excellence or also putting some weight on the significance of the moment. If you’re considering significance as well as technique, obviously the match winning assist against Germany in WC86 is his most significant. But I like this one as well


    Because it’s the main league tournament of Argentina, Boca Juniors are on 47 points, their opponent Ferro Carril Oeste is on 46 points, and there are just two more games to play. This is essentially a title deciding match, and with 10 minutes left in which either team could still win, he produces that assist. That’s why you can see the fans going wild. In the end Boca win the league by 1 point.
    And he’s only 20 years old which makes the story seem even better.
    Not as significant as the WC final but I think technically superior.
    Just another interesting fact: Maradona played in 8 finals in his career and had assists in 6 of them.
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I think it's tricky to decide but I was primarily aiming for the best quality wise (it's subject to opinion though of course, or 'preference' even), but where two similar goals occured then the more significant one would be likely to be picked (with some proviso re: whether I'd used it before on a video I'd made potentially, but I'd not be aiming for variety to the extent of excluding choices I'd obviously put in for a particular player).

    Difficulty could come into it in terms of level of opposition maybe also, but not necessarily, as if the goal or assist really seemed too easy it's less likely to be impressive enough anyway maybe.

    That's good info about that game anyway - I think I'd been aware before but wasn't tying that assist to an important game in my head necessarily earlier. I do think it's a little bit similar to the 1986 WC Final one yeah, but can see how you'd think it was better, in terms of the technique and style of pass.

    I know the game for Argentinos Juniors vs Boca where he scored the free-kick (plus another one, and a further goal too) would be a big game in it's own right, and even moreso maybe the one for Boca Juniors vs River Plate in 1981 which I do think was also important for a title wasn't it unless I mis-remember something (there is a goal he scores in that which I've used before on a video, where he takes the ball down with one touch in the area and sidesteps the goalie IIRC, but probably I don't have it in contention for this with the other available options; there is one goal they score where he sets it up with a bit of a dribble and a pass too but there is some pinball before it goes in rather than the player he passed to originally just scoring so it's not really a valid assist anyway).

    Goal number 6 on here is the other free-kick I mentioned, but I assume the game is not considered in a similar way to the one vs Boca (albeit that wasn't any kind of deciding game I don't think was it?):
    Diego Maradona 60 Free Kicks HD - YouTube

    I don't know if you know anything about that other assist from his Boca days I mentioned earlier, in terms of the game it was from (I'm not sure I was ever aware of that for that one) - the one at 3:40 on here (I thought it was helpful to be 100% clear which one I mean again!)?
    Maradona assists and passing skills (Boca jrs.) - YouTube
    Maybe the context of the match situation could have some impact on how I'd see the assist on that goal (more likely a top 3 candidate if very significant, possibly out of the equation if it was a very low level game or something), albeit it doesn't change the actual play.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Classic remains the 'Maradona as victim and ultimate underdog' trope.

    If one reads Balague his book carefully though, then it is clear he was too valuable for FIFA and their plotters (not the least in 1994, which is explicitly written) and the Italians let him off the hook with a criminal record in 1990-1991.
    Received a conditional punishment for stuff that normally gets a 28 years jail sentence - also if you're a CEO.
     
  15. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021
    Yes and what would the combined prison sentence be for all the physical assaults on the pitch he suffered that would be illegal outside a football pitch? >1000 years???
    I don’t really think Maradona is a sympathetic personality, is he winning any popularity contests off the field? I don’t think there’s any danger of that, all his personal failure are very well publicised. Maybe inside Argentina he is considered a saint, maybe....
     
  16. Calculator

    Calculator Member

    Aug 6, 2021
    This was an astonishing goal at Boca juniors against River Plate, from 1981. (First in the video)


    I did not previously realise how good it was because of the grainy video quality, shoddy camera work and lack of more close up camera replays. But I just took some screenshots of it and I can’t believe the accuracy...

    judging by the shadows this is the moment I think the ball has almost reached the goal line DD15E32D-ACEB-4909-9CAC-76ABABEDDECF.jpeg

    This is when it crosses the goal line
    EBA0E809-E4AA-4B62-9102-BA263700F60D.jpeg

    I almost can’t believe he hit the top corner from here
    F8D85FA0-91E2-4D20-8E37-707F43001053.jpeg


    I sort of assumed before that it was a very good goal but also a bit of a goalkeeper blunder. Judging by this I have to give it 10/10 for accuracy and innovation.
     
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  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, true, and I understand what you mean in that at first glance it seems like "how did that go in from there?". I mean maybe the goalie could have got there if he was alert but it wasn't exactly a major error given the ball entering right in the corner and the fact it took him by surprise too I guess.

    It's probably worthy of being in the ballpark for a top 5 goal by him, although I guess I should make my own mind up re: my proposed video (otherwise I'd end up taking requests - not to say recommendations like this aren't helpful in making me aware of possibilities though - I did consult Puck on possible Gullit assists for example too and possibly changed one of the choices because of that - Gullit is set to be #25 and therefore begin the 2nd part of the two-part 'top 25' series albeit I might do it before part 1 I think!) and for goals with some similarity maybe I still lean to the one vs Lazio and one of the free-kicks ahead of it as a choice.
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I notice Matigol on Youtube has uploaded a video of Maradona vs Verona 1985/86 actually (with the title asking whether it's the greatest performance of all-time):
    Is Diego Maradona vs Verona The Greatest Performance of all time? • GOAT 1985-86 | - YouTube

    For me it's not the best display of all-time (though Maradona vs Belgium in WC86 might be), but interesting to see, and actually it does make me reconsider whether among 5 Maradona goals for the video I'm planning I'd really leave out that one vs Verona (when I appreciate the first touch to bring the ball out of the sky in addition to the finish). I tend to think he was better individually in the 84/85 game vs Lazio although IIRC I didn't see all his touches from that game, and it might not be possible.

    It did receive very high ratings from Italian press though, as @Vegan10 showed on this thread
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    These were the ratings for that Lazio 84/85 game, likewise:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Without wanting to divert the thread onto a (kind of related) different topic, I thought I'd post the video for Part 2 of the top 25 that I got done today. As I mention in the comments (so far the only one below the video), I had to take out one Rummenigge goal to make sure the video can be viewed in every country, and part of one of Rivera's assists (from the 1969 European Cup Final) to make sure it wasn't blocked completely:
    Best 3 Goals, 3 Assists of suggested Top 25 Football Players of 2nd half 20thCentury Part2 (#25-#13) - YouTube

    Some of the choices felt tricky and arguable, but I think it's about as good a collection as I could do.
     
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  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Lazio 1984/85 was the second worst team in Serie A history(2 wins in the league)

    The worst team in Serie A history was catania 1983/84(1 win in the league)
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I hope the period chosen makes sense too - some footage of older players is available of course, but it's harder to judge players with limited footage and certainly have their best goals and assists available (though in all cases unavailable goals and assists can't be included obviously).

    And the end of the century seems like a good cut off point (approximately - I used 1948 to 2001), even though it takes out some great goal and assist options for a few players potentially, and obviously players who shined later, or are still playing aren't included (maybe it helps avoid controversy in positioning a bit, but also those goals and assists are mostly available and well known - I don't say Messi for example doesn't have a great set of 3 or 5 goals/assists by the way - somebody mentioned a goal he scored with a Puskas/esque little chip followed by a shot from outside the box in the comments for my Puskas/Kocsis/Czibor vs England video because Puskas had done basically the same chip off the ground on the halfway line towards the end of that game - anyway that Messi goal is an example of a recent one, just like that Puskas Award runner-up that calculator mentioned, that adds to his collection, and though in the past I've suggested sometimes commentators go overboard about how unstoppable Messi is even when he's not really done something special and actually missed the target, on the video I found for that goal it's the opposite effect and it's a bit of a worldie by most players standards I suppose that doesn't make the commentator go over the top whatsoever, although I suppose he's an after-match summariser rather than in-game commentator actually)
    Highlights FC Barcelona vs SD Huesca (4-1) - YouTube
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I see it now! Good selection.

    You asked if there is a video containing some good Gullit assists (I also said relative to other Benelux players I don't rate him as high as others do; he is in the 3 to 9 group for NED players for me, and I'm inclined to put De Bruyne/Hazard also at that plateau for example but I know many don't).

    I see you used one of that video indeed and put it into your own.



    Personally I like the one he did at 4:55 and 6:45 but each to his own and of course you're free to use the one you like.

    There is also one particular flick against Juventus in 1987 that I have always liked. Where he with one rainbow touch he plays Virdis facing the goalkeeper.

    Very difficult skill and tight margin of error, while losing very few balls that game (by the face of it). It's not like he tried 10 times a difficult thing and is then successful once.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I can't remember if I ever watched all of this, but maybe I should soon, since it contains one goal and one assist too on the video I just made (so in effect I suggest a top 3 goal, probably top 1 actually, and top 3 assist of Ronaldo's career at least up until 2001, so before his comeback from injury)
    96/97 Away Ronaldo vs Compostela - YouTube

    It could be a good candidate for the main topic of this thread. That video has been up 3 years now, but maybe many of you haven't watched it either....
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I think I realised the one at 4:55 with the outside of the boot cross is actually not technically an assist because the ball goes just wide from the team-mates header. Until I noticed that I was thinking of including that one, but I do think the backheel is a really good one too (previously I'd been set to include the assist vs Napoli to Van Basten in the 1987/88 top of the table clash).

    The chances created aren't worse if the player misses necessarily, but yeah I'm going strictly with assists (I suppose many exceptional chances created might remain unknown by most people also too, or not commonly seen anyway).
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    This is a valid point (the points total in 1987 wasn't great either) but overlooks the context and significance a bit. Napoli was in the first half of the season still flirting with relegation and Maradona had only scored 3 goals in all competitions (includes one penalty). The second half of the season went much better and this game against Lazio in the 20th round was part of the upturn.

    When you talk about absolute level though, then this cannot be among his very best games.
     

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