Title Match Style Championship [Multiple R]

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by aperfectring, Nov 22, 2013.

  1. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    A few days ago, I became fascinated by the idea of using the "title match" format for a soccer trophy. Basically, a "title match" format is the format that they typically use in boxing. If you beat the current champion, you become the new champion.

    So I decided to come up with a set of rules for it, and figure out how it would have worked out for MLS.

    Rules:
    1. You must win in order to take control of the trophy. This means if you currently hold it, then a draw is enough to retain it.
    2. If a game featured extra time, the result at the end of that is what counts.
    3. If a game featured a penalty shootout, but the individual game hadn't been a tie, the penalty shootout is ignored. An example would be if the trophy went into the RSL/POR game this Sunday, and Portland was ahead by 2 goals at the end of the extra time, Portland would get the trophy, even if RSL won the penalty shootout which followed. If the individual game had been tied just before the penalty shootout, the penalty shootout counts.
    4. If a team folds while holding the trophy, the most recent champion still playing gets it.
    5. If a team relocates, the trophy relocates with them.

    All US & Canadian Leagues

    I started off with including all MLS regular season and playoff games, as well as games in the US Open Cup and Canadian Championship. I also decided that if a lower league team won it, then their league matches would count. As I was iterating through this one, I ran into an issue where New England held the trophy in 2000 when they lost to a PDL team in the US Open Cup. This made things very difficult because there was basically no way to dig up all of the PDL league match results that far back. Because of this, I decided to give New England a break, and made a ruling that, at that time, the trophy would only be able to be won by professional clubs. The issue never arose again.

    The final result of this is that Sporting Kansas City currently holds the trophy. Because the trophy will go to the winner of the 2nd leg Eastern Conference Champion, it will then go to the MLS Cup, and go to that champion at the end of the year.

    LA has held the trophy the most, having it for 76 games. Dallas is in second with 57.

    All of MLS's 21 clubs have held the trophy at some point in their history. However, Vancouver only held it while a D2 team.

    On three occasions, the trophy ended the season in the hands lower division clubs.

    All MLS official games

    My next investigation was to keep it wholly within the MLS, and exclude games from the US Open Cup and Canadian Championship entirely.

    Again, Sporting Kansas City came out as the current holder of the trophy. Interestingly, the end of season holder was always the same for the seasons that it had ended in MLS in the previous investigation.

    LA has one again held the trophy the most, with 81 games. However, Kansas City jumps up into second with 72 games.

    All of MLS's 21 clubs have held the trophy at some point in their history, except for Vancouver.

    MLS regular season games only

    My final investigation was to limit it only to regular season games. The playoffs tended to force the trophy to the MLS Cup holder at the end of the season, so I wondered how different things would be if the playoff games were ignored.

    Sporting Kansas City, yet again, is the current holder. In this case, however, since the regular season is over, they are the holder for the offseason.

    As it turns out, the holder at the end of the regular season always ended up being the same as it had been before the playoffs in the prior case.

    Kansas City has held it the most times in this situation, with 80 games. LA is in second with 49.

    All of MLS's 21 clubs have held the trophy at some point in their history, except for Vancouver.

    Reverse title match trophy

    Finally, I got the idea of creating a wooden spoon type trophy which is basically the opposite of a title match trophy. The rules were the same, except for #1:
    You must win to force the trophy onto another poor sap. This means that if you currently hold it, a draw will force you to keep it.

    I only included regular season games. I excluded the US Open Cup, because if you didn't, it would quickly be sent down into the amateur levels, and never be seen again. I also excluded the playoffs, mostly just because.

    The current holders of this inauspicious trophy: Chivas USA.

    All of MLS's 21 clubs have held the trophy at some point in their MLS history. Seattle and Portland have held it the least, only holding it for one game each, and then sending it on its way in their next match. New England has held it for the most number of matches at 51. If, however, you figure out the average number of matches/season each team has held it, Toronto shoots into the lead with just shy of 5/season.

    Personally, I really like the idea of using this last one as an actual trophy. In discussing it with a friend, we came up with the idea of using a beat up old tin cup as the "trophy". When "awarding" it to a different team's supporters, we figured that it should be filled with some really crappy beer, so they can start drowning their sorrows. Obviously, though, the logistics of moving the trophy around between teams make it unlikely that it will ever really be a thing, but the idea amuses me.
     
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  2. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Here's the list of results for the normal title match style championship in 2013. In all cases of the normal title match, Kansas City entered the 2013 season holding the trophy. The team holding the trophy always won the US Open Cup games when they were in them, so those games did not impact the outcome.


    Date
    WinnerLoserCompetition
    3/2/2013 SKC PHI MLS
    3/9/2013 TOR SKC MLS
    3/16/2013 MON TOR MLS
    3/23/2013 MON NYR MLS
    3/30/2013 SKC MON MLS
    4/5/2013 SKC DCU MLS
    4/17/2013 SKC NYR MLS
    4/20/2013 LAG SKC MLS
    4/27/2013 LAG RSL MLS
    5/5/2013 HOU LAG MLS
    5/8/2013 HOU DCU MLS
    5/12/2013 SKC HOU MLS
    5/19/2013 SKC DCU MLS
    5/26/2013 SKC HOU MLS
    5/28/2013 SKC DMM USOC
    6/1/2013 MON SKC MLS
    6/15/2013 CLB MON MLS
    6/22/2013 CHI CLB MLS
    6/26/2013 CHI ORL USOC
    7/3/2013 CHI SJE MLS
    7/7/2013 SKC CHI MLS
    7/13/2013 SKC TOR MLS
    7/20/2013 SKC RSL MLS
    7/27/2013 MON SKC MLS
    8/3/2013 DCU MON MLS
    8/7/2013 DCU CHI USOC
    8/10/2013 PHI DCU MLS
    8/17/2013 PHI NYR MLS
    8/25/2013 NER PHI MLS
    8/30/2013 NER TOR MLS
    9/8/2013 MON NER MLS
    9/14/2013 CLB MON MLS
    9/21/2013 CLB CHI MLS
    9/29/2013 CLB FCD MLS
    10/5/2013 SKC CLB MLS
    10/9/2013 SKC HOU MLS
    10/18/2013 SKC DCU MLS
    10/26/2013 SKC PHI MLS
    11/2/2013 NER SKC MLS Playoffs
    11/6/2013 SKC NER MLS Playoffs
    11/9/2013 SKC HOU MLS Playoffs
     
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  3. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Wonderful Thread!! :thumbsup:

    Related Posts at:
    Related Blogs at:
    Look forward to seeing the details on the different combinations of yours!! ;)
     
  4. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Nice efforts!!

    Would very much like to see the all the games since the beginning (1996-2012) as well...

     
  5. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    I have them all lying around in a Google spreadsheet. The main reason I didn't post them all is that each of the formats have about 600 total games involved, and that is a whole lot of data to format and post here.

    Here is the link to the spreadsheet. Anyone should be able to view it, but I have left it so that only I can edit it.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoY7Ed6RqHHtdEJROF8wbDVCQ0pleEFlMjFiUWNrZkE&usp=sharing

    I don't have any of the scores in there for the games because I wasn't particularly interested in that.

    You'll see some rather random columns on some of the tabs, they are whatever was fascinating me at the time of collection. Eventually I'll reconcile all of them so that they all have the same data.
     
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  6. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    @Ismitje Please add a [R] to the title of this thread. I accidentally forgot to do so, and there are results (and will continue to be new results) in this thread. Thanks.

    With the Kansas City win on Saturday, they increase their streak to 3, and bring the trophy to the MLS Cup in both the "Overall" and "Playoffs" competitions. The "Regular Season" and "Reverse" competitions remain where they are, and will continue to do so until next season.
     
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  7. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Another related thread: "MLS Virtual Championship"
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/mls-virtual-championship.558607/

     
  8. holiday

    holiday Member+

    Oct 16, 2007
    why no carry-over champion from last year? you made rules about folding/relocating and then you start the year like noting came before?
     
  9. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    As I mentioned above, I started in 1996. Kansas City *is* the carry-over champion from last year. They won their last game in the playoffs, but lost on aggregate to Houston. The trophy doesn't take into account 2-goal aggregate in awarding the trophy, though, just the individual game's result. I didn't list all of the games because there are something like 600 games for each of the 4 situations, and while some of them are the same, they aren't all the same, so I would need to put the whole list for all of them. Take a look at the google spreadsheet linked above if you want to see prior history.
     
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  10. holiday

    holiday Member+

    Oct 16, 2007
    my mistake. it so happened that the first match on opening day 2013 was philly-kc 1-3, which tricked me into thinking that's how you got started.
    i understood the format, but i overlooked the statement that kc was the holdover 'champion.'
    interesting.
     
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  11. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Yeah, it was the only time when the trophy made it into the playoffs, but didn't end up at the MLS Cup champion.
     
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  12. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    By the way, perhaps this can be a new variant as well? i.e. wiping the slate clean for every new season. :thumbsup:

    The only tricky part is determining the "first" game of each season, if several games start concurrently... ;)
     
  13. holiday

    holiday Member+

    Oct 16, 2007
    i would continue with the carry-over from the year before, because otherwise you're sort of stripping the title from someone.

    where i do have a question about the rules though, is:
    "If a game featured a penalty shootout... If the individual game had been tied just before the penalty shootout, the penalty shootout counts."
    my issue would be that by fifa rules, games decided by shootout actually count as ties. so i would lean to having the defending 'champ' hold its title in such a case.
    of course the disadvantage is that the season ends at that point (if the 'champ' loses the shootout), and you're done for the year. remaining games become irrelevant.
    it seems like a minor point (maybe it's never happened).
    but if it does happen, you might end up with a very different line of 'champs' going forward, depending which way you judge. (or it could make no more than a tiny difference, if for example the 'champ' were to lose mls cup in a shootout, and then happen to play, and beat, the new 'champ' opening day next year.)
     
  14. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Yes, that is an option for how things go, but one of the main reasons I used that metric is because of the old MLS results. With those it can be hard to dig up whether the game went to shootouts or not. I don't know for sure, but I don't think I actually ran into any situation where there was a shootout in the playoffs and the trophy didn't go with them anyways, but I could easily be wrong there, because I honestly don't remember that clearly.

    I will note that the trophy tends to end up at the same spot at the end of the regular season, no matter where it started the year. The trophy tends towards long winning/undefeated streaks. In all of the seasons where the trophy ended at a different place between the end of the playoffs and the end of the regular season, there wasn't a single case where the trophy ended at a different spot at the end of the next regular season. The intermediate champions do change for a while, but in many cases not for long.
     
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  15. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Some useful resources on Shoot-out Scores as below, let me know if there are more: ;):cool::D
     
  16. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Because I was curious how it work out, a new scenario:

    Including playoffs, each individual series in the playoffs counts as one game. There are absolutely no changes in the results, except where playoff games are combined into a single result, until the 2012 playoffs. KC doesn't end up as the end of season champion, and instead it moves on to eventually settle on the MLS Cup champion LA Galaxy. Because of this change, the entirety of 2013 ends up being different, with Toronto holding it at the end of 2013. All thanks to Montreal losing to them. Otherwise it would have gone into the playoffs, and made its way back to SKC where the other scenarios ended up so far.
     
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  17. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    It seems like it would be obvious, but this weekend's MLS Cup result means that in the All-leagues, and Playoffs, scenarios, Kansas City still holds the trophy, and will hold it going into next year. The other scenarios are unaffected by the game either because it was outside of the scope of their competition, or the holder was not participating in the game.

    Here's a summary table of the current state:
    ScenarioAll LeaguesPlayoffsPlayoffs CombinedRegular SeasonReverse
    Current HolderKansas CityKansas CityTorontoKansas CityChivas
    Next Game2014-03-08 at Seattle2014-03-08 at Seattle2014-03-15 at Seattle2014-03-08 at Seattle2014-03-09 vs Chicago
     
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  18. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    [​IMG]
     
  19. THOMA GOL

    THOMA GOL BigSoccer Supporter

    Yokohama F-Marinos
    Jul 16, 1999
    Paradise of the Pacific
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh my goodness
     
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  20. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Update time!

    Because Kansas City lost to Seattle in that first week game, and Toronto won against Seattle in the second week game, all of the "forward" style trophies then followed this path:
    3/22 - stays with Toronto (against DCU)
    3/29 - Moves to RSL
    4/5 - Stays with RSL (against SKC)
    4/12 - Stays with RSL (against PHI)
    Next game, POR@RSL, 4/19

    For the reverse trophy, Chivas won their first game this season against Chicago, forcing them to take the trophy. Chicago then proceeded to draw their next 5 games, against POR, NYR, DCU, PHI, and MON. The next game for this trophy is 4/19, NER@CHI.


    As far as streaking, RSL and CHI both have a chance to tie their longest streaks this weekend. RSL with 4 would tie their streak in MLS Playoffs, MLS Playoffs combined, and All Leagues. CHI could get their streak up to 7 in the reverse trophy.

    Interesting, RSL has an amazing streak of 14 in the MLS Regular Season only competition, so they would need to go on quite a bit of a run to tie or beat that one.
     
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  21. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Update time!

    Here's the list of games for the forward trophies:

    Stays with RSL for 6 games (POR, VAN, CHI, HOU, COL, FCD)
    5/31 - Moves to SEA
    6/7 - Stays with SEA (against CHI)
    6/18 - Stays with SEA (against PSA Elite, USOC game, so All Leagues only)
    6/24 - Stays with SEA (against SJE, USOC, so All Leagues only)
    6/28 - Stays with SEA (against DCU)
    7/5 - moves to VAN
    Next game 7/12 vCHV

    This caused RSL's streak to end at 9 games, a record in each except for RS only. Seattle broke their longest streak in the All Leagues version, with 5. Vancouver now holds it in all forward versions. In the Incl. Playoffs and RS Only versions, this is the only time Vancouver has held it. Strangely enough, in the Playoffs Combined, Vancouver has a streak of 6. In the All Leagues version, Vancouver held it once before when they were a D2 side in the A-League.

    Here's the update for the reverse trophy:
    4/19 - Stays with CHI (against NER)
    5/3 - Stays with CHI (against RSL)
    5/10 - Moves to NYR
    5/17 - Stays with NYR (against TOR)
    5/24 - Stays with NYR (against POR)
    5/27 - Stays with NYR (against SKC)
    6/8 - Moves to NER
    6/28 - Stays with NER (against PHI)
    7/4 - Stays with NER (against RSL)
    Next game 7/12 vCHI

    Chicago built up a team record streak of 8 games before forcing New York to take it. It is interesting to note that on 5/3, the game featured *all* of the forward and reverse trophies. I don't know how often this has happened in the past, but it is rather interesting that it did here. New England's current streak of 3 is still a ways off from their record of 7, and I'm sure they are hoping they don't match that.
     
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  22. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Another update!

    Forward trophy:
    7/12 Moves to CHV
    7/20 Moves to DCU
    7/30 Stays with DCU
    8/3 Moves to HOU
    8/10 Moves to SEA
    8/13 (All leagues only) Stays with SEA in USOC game
    8/16 Moves to RSL

    Mostly a lot of juggling around, and not really anything of note.
    Next game: 8/22 @ FCD

    Reverse trophy:
    7/12, 7/16, 7/19, 7/26, Stays with NER
    7/30, 8/2, 8/9, 8/17, Moves to COL then stays there

    New England was able to match their longest streak of 7 before pushing it onto Colorado. Colorado is now 3 more losses or ties away from matching their current record of 7.
    Next game: 8/20 v LAG
     
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  23. henryo

    henryo Member+

    Jun 26, 2007
    Time for a monthly update? ;)

     
  24. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    I was thinking it was about that time, yes. Probably a bit later tonight.
     
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  25. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Update time!

    "Forward" trophies:
    8/22/14 FCD takes it from RSL
    8/30/14 CHI takes it from FCD
    9/7/14 NER takes it from CHI
    9/13/14 NER holds it against MON

    No new records as it just bounced around a bunch.

    "Reverse" trophy:
    Colorado lost to LAG, SEA, and LAG, then drew POR on 8/20, 8/30, 9/5, and 9/13 respectively.

    This means they retained the trophy for this whole update. Their streak now stands at 8, their longest ever in holding it (previously their record was 7). However, they must not win for the rest of the season (6 games) if they want to break the all-time streak record (currently 13).

    I plan for the next update to be between the end of regular season and the beginning of playoffs. This will be the "end of year" for at least one of the trophies (regular season only) and possibly more.
     
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