Some of the great players in early era of football had a few chances to play in international football by many factors such as unavailability of tournaments, their countries did not participate in tournament, playing football during war-time, or any other circumstances. Some high-profile players in domestic league were also overshadowed by the superstar in top national team and they're always on bench. I list these kind of players as below ; Goalkeeper Bert Trautmann Giuliano Sarti Uli Stein Stefano Tacconi Augustin Cejas Luciano Castellini Francisco Buyo Fabio Cudicini Bernd Franke Norbert Nigbur Midfielder Ernesto Lazzatti Agostino Di Bartolomei Helge Bronee Jair Da Costa Sergey Ilyin Edvaldo Dida Walter Gomez Forward Hector Rial Grigory Fedotov Charlie Buchan Istvan Nyers George Camsell Any other name ?
Paulino Alcántara, Pichichi, Iván de la Peña, Gaspar Rubio, René Petit, Bernabé Ferreyra, Guillermo Stabile
I see too many in that list who had in truth no international dimension, reputation or fame beyond their own borders. Let's first start with the ones who actually had an international reputation. Frank Verlaat for example (b. 1968, one cap). Selected more than once by ESM, from the by the usual suspects often ignored Netherlands. Others of that ilk are Eugenio Corini, Di Bartolomei, Ruud Hesp or of Matt le Tissier (or so far Aymeric Laporte).
Twenty-five English names. Number of caps in brackets. Charley Clegg (1) 1872 Charles Alcock (1) 1875 Charlie Roberts (3) 1905 Charlie Buchan (6) 1913-24 Ephraim Longworth (5) 1920-23 Clem Stephenson (1) 1924 David Jack (9) 1924-32 Gordon Hodgson (3) 1930-31 Albert Stubbins (0) Jimmy Hagan (1) 1948 Len Shackleton (5) 1948-54 Bill Foulkes (1) 1954 Tony Kay (1) 1963 Ian Callaghan (4) 1966-77 Jimmy Greenhoff (0) Colin Harvey (1) 1971 Howard Kendall (0) Frank Worthington (8) 1974 Kevin Beattie (9) 1975-77 Jimmy Case (0) Laurie Cunningham (6) 1979-80 Steve Bruce (0) Matt le Tissier (8) 1994-97 Kevin Phillips (8) 1999-2002 Jonathan Woodgate (8) 1999-2008
Fifteen Scots. Most of the names from the nineteenth century are there due to the Scottish selectors banning those playing for English clubs. Arthur Kinnaird (1) 1873 Andrew Watson (3) 1881-82 Nick Ross (0) Archie Hunter (0) Jimmy Gordon (0) Jimmy Ross (0) Ned Doig (6) 1887-1903 Hughie Wilson (4) 1890-1904 Jonny Campbell (0) Jimmy Cowan (3) 1896-98 Alex James (8) 1925-32 Jimmy McGrory (7) 1928-33 John Thomson (4) 1930-31 Ron Yeats (2) 1964-65 Ronnie Simpson (5) 1967-68 James and McGrory stand out.
A few more names. Germany Lothar Emmerich (5) 1966 Marc-Andre ter Stegen (9) 2012-17 Leroy Sane (4) 2015-16 Joshua Kimmich (9) 2016 Italy Eddie Firmani (3) 1956-58 Mauro Tassotti (7) 1992-94 Argentina Atilio Garcia (6 for Uruguay) 1945-47 Juan Ramon Veron (4) 1968-71 Ruben Galvan (3) 1974-78 Netherlands Jordi Cruyff (9) 1996 George Boateng (4) 2001-06 USSR Alexei "Tiger" Khomich (0)
Boateng is a quite solid one. He has more EPL appearances than anyone else of his country and FFT included him among the 100 best Premier League foreigners (at #88). No real options but nevertheless remarkable: the Dutchman with the most Bundesliga appearances in history was never capped (Hein van Haaren), just as the one in Portugal (Van der Gaag). For Belgium I think the stand out name is Roger van Gool, who at his peak was one of the most expensive players in Europe (on the back of the '76 UEFA Cup final) but playing abroad cost him a large amount of caps. Normally he should have been on 30+ caps at a minimum (for Belgium at least, and maybe also at bigger european national teams he would have been over 9 caps). At his best he was one of the better/influential players of his country. For the Netherlands there are a few solid/good goalkeepers during the vBreukelen-deGoey-VdS days (early 80s to mid 00s). Goalkeeping coach Frans Hoeks has has quite bit of an influence on the rest of Europe and it resulted in a number of adequate goalkeepers (Snelders, Westerveld, Waterreus, Timmer among others). The stand-out name with no caps at all is Ruud Hesp, who won the competition from Vitor Baia at Barcelona (an all-time great goalkeeper, who has an argument for being the most decorated in history), was selected by ESM and even made the Don Balon team of the season. Since those days I'd says Tim Krul (8 caps) is the best, who just recently was the hero in the FA Cup, was Premier League player of the month (relatively rare for a goalkeeper), and registered the single game saves record. He is not top of the world but has his occasional games where he stands out, in the league or KO matches. Other fine players with international reputation are: Frank Verlaat (twice ESM, kicker team of season, France Football team/squad of the season etc.), Gerrie Mühren (Ballon d'Or top 10 for 'golden ajax'; later rated high for Real Betis). One tray below that: Epi Drost, Peter Houtman, Wilbert Suvrijn, Bruggink, Jan Boskamp (player of the year in BEL), Vreeken (uncapped because of his nazi past), Bart Carlier, Mansveld, Mario Been, Lippens, Westerveld, Laseroms, Jan Mulder (mentioned by FF editors Rethacker+Thibert in 1994 for their 1000 players book).... Its a tough one for sure (might well have overlooked some more worthy options; Barry van Galen? Van Gastel?), but from an analytical point of view I'd start with the ones who had a certain reputation beyond their own borders. For some that is more clear and obvious than for others.
Arsenio Erico his caps are not officially recognized, so he might qualify too. Other good ones are imho Sebastiano Rossi, Sergio Brio, the captains Bernd Wehmeyer and Gabi, Hatzipanagis, Di Canio, Virdis, Hubner, Bernd Durnbeger. Tentatively - and this might be because of the erstwhile prominence of the league - Italy has a few good players with 10 caps or lower, just as that they don't have many with 15 goals or more.
All-time topscorer in the French league Delio Onnis was never capped too, although I'm not sure whether his reputation went beyond the borders of France and the league wasn't all that back then (borderline top 10 or lower in coefficients). In international games he, unlike e.g. Platini, didn't do a great amount... Nevertheless notable.
John Hansen (Juventus, Denmark) has only 8 caps, and 10 goals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hansen_(footballer,_born_1924)
Yes for sure, it's not everybody who has putted these numbers every season over here, for more than a decade. When talking about international games, you must be talking about clubs games in European Cups and he still has 6 goals in 9 games here, scoring against each side he faced, except Malmö 1978-1979 (scored against Eintracht, Shaktyor, Steaua, Lokomotiv Sofia) : https://footballyesterdayandtoday.blogspot.com/2015/07/carlos-bianchi-delio-onnis-detailed.html. So he did not change his habits in this context. Just, Monaco had no experience in Europe and failed at the image of the French clubs in general during these decades (the exception being the 90s finally) although there was exceptions around that time with Sochaux, Bastia, Nantes once but without having an extraordinary run and Saint-Etienne against other big (bigger?) clubs but before crumbling in the next round. Btw, about Piazza, it is noted that he has 15 caps on his wiki pages but it is full-international A caps? Are these selections all recognized by the Fifa? It is the number of times he was called-up including times he would not have played? Not sure about this as with other "non-European" players. It could be well the exact number of caps he collected though, dunno how to verify it for my part.
Actually, Osvaldo Piazza played 9 matches with Argentina, although 2 of them cannot be considered official because they were not against national teams. This is the detail of the games he played: * 1.- 5/25/1972. Argentina 0 - Paraguay 0 (friendly) * 2.- 5/31/1972. Chile 3 - Argentina 4 (Carlos Dittborn Cup) * 3.- 6/11/1972. Argentina 2 - Africa 0 (Independence Cup) * 4.- 6/18/1972. Argentina 7 - CONCACAF 0 (Copa Independencia) * 5.- 6/22/1972. Argentina 4 - Colombia 1 (Independence Cup) * 6.- 6/25/1972. Argentina 0 - France 0 (Independence Cup) * 7.- 7/2/1972. Argentina 1 - USSR 0 (Independence Cup) * 8.- 6/7/1972. Argentina 1 - Uruguay 0 (Independence Cup) * 9.- 9/7/1972. Argentina 2 - Yugoslavia 4 (Independence Cup) As it can be seen, all the matches of Piazza in the Argentine national team were within a month and a half. At that time he was a Lanús player. Shortly after he was signed by Saint Ettiene, where he was an essential figure in the great times of this team. Being outside Argentina in his best years, he was never called by the albiceleste again.
Thanks a lot. Btw, what is the source? The games against the continental selections (at the Independence Cup in Brazil, in '72) are fully recognized/ counted by the French Federation at least (as France played aganst these teams too, same group as Argentina). As to know if it's recognized by Fifa, not sure but why not since it's a selection of players who also played for their respective national teams as opposed to a League XI, for example, that can have non-international players.
but I have strong doubts that the number of 15 caps comes from nowhere actually ,and that he played only in '72. ... I had forgot about that, but re-reading now his bios on ASSE sites + French wiki it seems that Menotti counted on him for the Mundial (so it's possible he played some games from '73 to '77). ... Piazza was in Argentina in '78 just prior to the tournament as pre-selected by Menotti (and was also annouced at River), see the Goles mag's cover here : http://www.poteaux-carres.com/article-C0120060402120906-6-avril-1947-Naissance-dOswaldo-Piazza.html in the middle of the web page) but at the same time (?) he voiced that he did not want to participate to this "feast of the dictature" (and other players followed him like Bianchi, Ayala, Wolff or Bochini). Thus Menotti gave him an ultimatum to make his final decision and he found "an excuse" to deny his selection, that is 1 month prior to the tournament. : his wife had a car accident in the South of France while he was in Argentina so he said that he was "psychologically unable to play". Thus he stood only one week in Argentina as he came back to France to see his wife. Did he voiced his opinion before to know about his wife's accident or after... dunno... it all happened within a week or so anyway. For sure his opinion about La Junta was clearly expressed though. At the same time, he was in Argentina surely to prepare his post-St-Etienne career and discuss contracts with Argentine clubs... so it was Vélez in the end and not River that plays at the Monumental btw... as soon as '79, when the dictature was still there ofc. He could have been World Champion but was not. As he says, Argentina could only win (Peru, the Final, the first matches too) and still deplore the egoism of many Argentine players who even if not sympathizing with Videla still wanted to participate to this event, event of propaganda : https://www.liberation.fr/sports/19...1978les-oublies-d-un-triomphe-planifie_240345 I think that Carrascosa is another player who voiced his opinion and perhaps was not even pre-selected since banned as a consequence (by order from the military power). Like I thought, he did it earlier as I now can see : 1 year before the tournament. But Piazza was well amongst the 24 pre-selected one month before the tournament, as seen on the mag front cover that he shares with Kempes in Argentinian shirt. Menotti wanted him as a starter in the team it seems. The squad that made the tournament was rather young in the end... perhaps some players who did not play were a bit old or near "the limit of age" at the same time but the squad was very young... Here is an article about Bochini's opinion on the events btw : https://www.ambito.com/deportes/bochini-los-militares-me-sacaron-del-mundial-78-n3651949 He would have preferred to be selected it seems... It's always not 100% clear why some players did not participate to it (like Cruyff of course). It's several reasons (and as to know wich one was the most decisive...). About Piazza, it's still unsure what is/ are the exact decisive reason(s) ofc (if it's his decision or if the decision was made for him). But at least he has expressed his opinion. Did he say he had no envy to participate to this World Cup before that one week in Argentina? During that week? Once back in Europe? That's what I'd like to know exactly now but for sure his opinions were already known anyway.
a couple of other articles by passing : https://www.pagina12.com.ar/1998/98-06/98-06-29/bue09.htm https://www.panenka.org/pasaportes/videla-y-el-mundial78-no-solo-fue-culpa-de-argentina/
Also, it is written that it's the first time that Piazza and Kempes are pictured together... Kempes did not play for Argentina in '77 and only once in '73... perhaps the 6 (if the games against Concacaf and Caf are counted) or 8 remaining selections of Piazza can be found there?
The magazine "El Gráfico" published in 1997 a series of fascicles with the history of the Argentine team since its creation. It indicates alignments of each and every one of the parties; What it does not do is distinguish between official and unofficial parties. Piazza only played those 9 games that I indicated. Personally I understand that only those who play against other national teams can be counted as officials. In fact, it is this link that I use, only those 7 internationalities are counted. https://www.national-football-teams.com/player/21241/Osvaldo_Piazza.html For a long time I have been trying to locate web pages with the details of Argentina's international matches, but I have not yet found a better source than the one I have pointed out above. By the way, magnificent information that you offer in this thread.
Ricardo Bochini and those that state their views years after the facts about the supposed pressure from the junta militar, were quite content and weren’t saying anything at that time. Ever since the so-called democracies that came into effect in 1983 with Alfonsin and later Menem, certain individuals started to lay blame on the state that had taken over in 1976 due to terrorists that were subverting within. After a brutal conflict in 1982 with the British, the military soon thereafter relinquished their control and all of a sudden people started to point the finger on the ‘war criminals’. How convenient... The truth is, Bochini, like others, use as scapegoats the government at that time as a convenient excuse for their own limited capacities of not accepting that Menotti had his own reasons that went beyond any supposed ‘outside pressures.’ Bochini simply never did produce the goods when he was called up, apart from some inconsequential friendlies, he was never at his best for the NT.
“Centenares de jóvenes idealistas desaparecían cada noche en las ciudades argentinas. El miedo caminaba por las calles de Buenos Aires y todas las familias temían recibir una llamada de teléfono, un golpe en la puerta. Argentina sufría una dictadura temible y muchos gobiernos se preguntaban como podía ese estado organizar el Mundial de fútbol de 1978...” This makes me laugh... I was there with my family as a young kid traveling from New York to Buenos Aires frequently and apart from the state of terror by those perpetrators that used to place bombs in 1976, Buenos Aires afterward in the late 70s and early 80s was remarkable and beautiful at anytime, with people flocking the nights with lights and restaurants packed. My folks and I had never seen the city better. My family and I returned in 1984 after 2 years of absence and it was different. Never was Argentina the same again. A lot that has been written over the years is inevitably propaganda.
What you say matches with what Piazza says in this article https://www.liberation.fr/sports/19...1978les-oublies-d-un-triomphe-planifie_240345 when he says "in Argentina we were blind, people did not know what happened in their own country, we knew more from abroad thanks to the debates we had with Argentine and Chilean refugees". "People did not believe me when we talked about what was said in Europe, they said that Europe was against Argentina and that everything was exaggerated" [in '78 especially]. in another article he says that awareness was a slow process. Of course, that's the interest of having different articles. There's also the point of view/ speech of Passarella (in '98, but did he ever changed/ considerably modified his speech over the years?) for example in these links and else.
So we were all blind, according to Mr. Piazza... He should be reminded that the junta took over in 1976 because Buenos Aires and Argentina were being subverted by terrorist factions where people lived in fear of being killed or maimed because of bombs being placed in packed areas where pedestrians walked or socialized. If people disappeared (and that 30 thousand figure is grossly exaggerated) it is because they were terrorists or people that were associated with them that had to be put down and suppressed. It was an internal war which required immediate action. Of course, now it is not politically correct to say this because of the so-called democracy and human rights. But what about the victims that perished or were maimed because of the terrorists? No one speaks about that. As for Ricardo Bochini, he tends to forget (or doesn’t want to acknowledge) that Alonso and J.J López were being overlooked by Menotti too, it was not about pressure, but about ‘el flaco’ having issues of finding the right team. Even Maradona did not make it, instead Villa did, when the press and fans wanted Maradona instead because he was going through a fine moment in the league. Menotti must have seen things we did not, however, he regularly used 3 volantes frequently (Ardiles, Gallego, Villa) whether in practice vs the second lineup or in actual games. His intentions were already in that direction. Galván, Larrosa and Valencia were mostly the backup option. Menotti wanted men that had good work-rate, that were two-way players, so the more creative volantes had to be sacrificed. Bochini in 1978 was domestically playing well, but his index of shooting and heading was modest to nonexistent at best. His strength was his ‘gambeta’ (the dribble) but his defensive recovery of lost balls and his two-way capacity was a liability. Alonso was also playing well, he had ‘gambeta’ too, plus a fine shot, which was so needed for that team, but he too was being overlooked. J.J. López had grit, ability to maneuver, a good shot and strength but was overlooked. Bochini just looks to point the blame on outside sources instead of actually stating the facts: Menotti never had him in mind because he didn’t fit the requirements that were demanded for his side. He should voice his discontent with Menotti and not on others. Menotti knew World Cup ‘78 was going to be a modern, vertical and physical tournament, that required hard workers, that is why we saw less creativity in the midfield, since Maradona, Alonso, López and Bochini were sacrificed. Housemann was there, but he had that ability to drop back and fight for loose balls, but he too would be relegated after not producing sufficiently in the group stages. Menotti also lacked a player that possessed strong leadership or did not have one, someone like in the mold of ‘el coco’ Basile, that Menotti mentioned. I know you friends in France had some of our guys playing there, and a reporter by the name of Alain Leblang, for Onze magazine, wrote prior to the WC that Argentina had good players but “with Ayala and Yazalde Argentina were better...” That the team was slow in the 1974 WC and now were looking to improve in that respect. The reality is Menotti wanted a strong, physical, hard working side at the expense of inconsequential ‘gambetas’ and ‘firuletes’.
Please do the translation and read the article in its entirety : he says "people were blind" + in parallel or first of all "people were afraid". Also it's just a part of an interview in this article.