Has Neymar jr surpassed Luis figo

Great posts. Neymar may well be the best player never to win the Ballon D'Or. How about the 2015 CL where he scored 7 goals in the knockouts... 3 each against PSG and Bayern in the QF and SF and 1 against Juve in the Final. Now it's not all stats and he was not the best player on Barca but he was absolutely spectacular. He also brought Barca back against PSG in 2017. And yes he was outrageous in Ligue 1 and CL last year prior to getting injured. For his career in the CL, he has 27 goals and 22 assists in 48 matches.

And then of course you bring up his international career where the man has 59 goals and 35 assists in 92 matches. Played pretty damn well in the 2014 World Cup as well.

 

For me no but he probaly will, re Neymar his best period of form was at Barcelona where he had Messi and Suarez and was only the main man for a few games / weeks here and there (hard with Messi around I know), unlike Figo and his 99-00 season at Barcelona.

I feel he under performed in CL last year and also at the World Cup, I feel he is not anywhere is direct as he could be, and his decision making is often questionable, nowadays seems as interested in off the field antics, fashion etc... as he does on it re winning major titles with Brazil or PSG... this may be a little harsh but only as he is very talented and potential is so high.

A harsh comparison maybe but compare Neymar at 26 vs Messi at 26, I feel they are light years apart...

 

Neymar isn't a bad finisher by any stretch though. In the CL, he scored 27 goals on 155 shots (or 17.4%). That's right in the Messi (19.1%) and Ronaldo (16.2%) territory. WhoScored has data only since 2009-2010 though.

At this stage, he doesn't have the longevity of many greats but Neymar vs. Henry (who I loved as a player) at 26 years of age. I give the clear edge to Neymar.

Underperformed in the CL? He was the best player through the group stage and had a fantastic 1st leg against Real. Kept threatening with his dribbles and a beautiful assist for Rabiot. Likewise in the World Cup, he got bad publicity for flopping and rightfully so but he was playing pretty well in the Belgium match.

Harsh comparison as you said. Messi at 26 and anyone are light years apart to me. But Neymar at 26 vs. Ronaldo at 26 are comparable.

 

I also agree with many of you, I just don't see Neymar with the potential of a big Brazilian star (at least when compared to the ones Brazil had), although he is, especially for fans of statistics, a all whole phenomenon.

In my opinion, since 2015, when he reached his peak, I don't see any progress in the way he plays, his finishing ability is at best mediocre (for a world-class player) and he often monopolizes the plays too much, which I, particularly, don't like at all.

Overall, I don't think he is more talented or at least a better player than many other players mentioned, such as Figo. But as it's big part about winning titles, we're depending on what he's still going to earn to measure his level of success.

PD I also have to say that his polemic attitude on and off the pitch also doesn't help in building a more favorable point of view too.

 

As good as prime Ronaldo was at dribbling, Neymar is better in terms of effectiveness and actually beating people. His first step is just out of this world. Playmaking like you said, Neymar is ahead in pretty clearly too. Those are two huge parts of the game of football.

Neymar vs. PSG in both 2015 and 2017 was sensational too, IMO on par with Ronaldo's best in the CL. Anyways I'm not saying 26 year old Neymar is better than 26 year old Ronaldo but there is an argument to be made at least. They are comparable. Remember than until Ronaldo turned 29, he had only won 1 BDO and then he started winning largely because his team's fortunes improved even though objectively speaking Ronaldo wasn't getting better and by the time he won his 3rd BDO at age 31 he was already in decline. And how about the international career where a 26 year old Neymar has a clear step on 26 year old Ronaldo?

Neymar has plenty of time to rocket up in all time standings if his teams start winning.

 

The problem is that PSG has no "real DM" so to speak, no "destroyer"... that's why Neymar was not positioned in the axis against Liverpool...against Red Star, he was. But we never know, perhaps it's the year of PSG. Every teams have their flaws. For the moment at least. We'll know better when the ko stages will start...there will be injured players too...
In any case, Neymar is evolving under Tuchel. He's more and more used in the axis behind the striker, Cavani... it seems that he's after changing a bit his behaviour too, on and off the pitch. For the moment at least. He begins his season almost perfectly in any case. Personally, I'm condident about him but we'll see. Whatever happens, the critics on him were exagerated recently imo, he's obviously one of the best players in the world, the second best in quality, independently of what he has accomplished or not. People tend to forget that he was injured and just went back to play the World Cup. We must not underestimate the fear he must have felt of being injured again during the tournament in addition to the weight he had on his shoulders as the star player of Brazil...with not much co-leaders around him in the team. He was close to make it all alone against Belgium btw.

Well, I agree with the ones who think that he's a real great player. Also, as it has been said, it remains that it's about the titles... technically, he's one of the best ever, superior to plenty of legends, it should be obvious. It remains that sometimes he keep the ball for too long, it's true, but it's his game too, to try in solo...and it seems that he's progressing in that domain too under Tuchel, as a #10.
What I fear the most personally, it's not about his behaviour or stuff but it's more a backlash, that he get new injuries. That could be the problem.

The possible lack of titles also then in the end, but most importantly, first of all, I wonder about what will be his physical state in the next years, even next months. I have the impression (like others) that he can get severely injured at any moment. This is worrying.

 

@carlito86

A major part of the reason why Ronaldo finished consistently higher in BDO voting is because he played on a team that was winning more in general and making the business end of the CL. Neymar hasn't done that as the man of his team at PSG yet.

Neymar up until the age of 26 has had a far superior international career than Cristiano at a similar age. He has performed markedly better at World Cups (6 to 2 edge in goals) and scoring against better teams more regularly and scoring in the knockout stage. Let's not try to spin that any other way.

You're taking it all wrong if you think I'm trying to underrate Ronaldo. I'm just saying. If Neymar keeps putting up the stats like he's been doing in the CL and major international tournaments and can validate it with some team success, many people will start putting him way way up there. If he doesn't know, people will find ways to tear him down and question his intangibles. You gotta win to be the greatest. Even the great Messi is getting hit hard the last few years because he isn't winning the CL. Perception heavily depends on winning. It shouldn't because level of play is what determines who's the best but it's how it is. Neymar has a long way to go to catch Ronaldo but in terms of ability I believe he's close. And even Messi isn't that far off. Neymar has insane talent.

 

Not sure I agree re PSG versus Real comment, yes a good assist for Rabiot but again he did some aesthetically pleasing work but in less effective areas of the pitch, he could have squared to Mbappe a couple times and chose the wrong option, I felt it was a game of might of beens where he / PSG had the ball in a lot of good positions without getting a shot on goal and did not take advantage of the good possession they had or positions they were in and Neymar was as guilty as anyone.

I am not trying to Neymar bash here, I have seen Neymar live a few times and one occasion he was fantastic and really really impressed me, I just feel often the end product does not meet the potential. I would be more than happy to see PSG win Ballon d'or, Neymar the top man in the competition, but I cant see it happening.

 

Why would you be happy to see PSG win?

As far as I'm concerned Neymar reached his best level for Barcelona when Messi was not playing (and the various stats as dribbles, through balls, goals, assists also support this). Otherwise he tended to be the third most crucial piece of the frontline. He was possibly in 2016-17 better than Suarez but certainly not for 2015-16 in my eyes. It's easy to talk in hindsight but he's not as crucial as non-forwards as Busquets.

Some would say he reached his best level for Brazil (rather than club) but I feel it has relatively many friendlies included and few big teams where he performed against. A few Brazil players were more outstanding against Belgium than he was, and he was widely derided for his Serbia match if I'm not mistaken (that was before the 'Mexico roll' - actually his best game of the tournament).

His (perceived) persona and the various antics can become dangerous if it doesn't become matched with trophies. Then all the Copa America sending offs, his dad and what more start to add up. With even things attached to it that he hasn't improved or become better. That's not really true I think.

He looks to me better in 2017 as in 2013.

 

I disagree with the take on the Belgium match. He was terrific in that one with 7 key passes and had a couple of big chances late and also really good against Mexico. Both were KO stage matches.

 

I thought Neymar was pretty good vs. Belgium, but that was the first time I watched that game, that is, with the additional multi-tasking that comes with watching a world cup knock out game, which can take away from ones ability to be as coherent as one could be (without all the world cup discussion) when following an individual performance, etc.

I watched that performance again and I was surprised be the flattered-to-deceive nature of Neymar's impact; only one really good run (Coutinho really should've put that one away), one that should've changed the course of the game, but even with that one brilliant moment of end product, Neymar was playing for the team that created the better open play service throughout the game, including one golden chance where Neymar's finish pointedly lacked the precision and the ruthlessness that the service deserved, and in a nutshell, he just plainly disappointed. Hazard arguably did more - had a more positive impact on the game - with less service.

The above is essentially how I feel about Neymar's overall package as a player. He looks like he should be a lot better, he flatters to deceive quite a lot, but maybe he can only be as great as we think he can be, but only by playing for Real Madrid i.e. a superclub that plays in a competitive league that, while being highly competitive as a league with a great deal of history behind it, also satisfies the most important thing -- it suits the player that Neymar is.

Which brings me to my next point: I thought that Neymar's move to PSG was interesting, because at the time the footballing world looked like it was going through a transition, and it looked like that transition would last 2 years at the very least, but now suddenly we have some highly competitive new teams, the new Barcelona, the new Manchester City, the new Liverpool, are already 3 new clubs that are considerably better than they were when Neymar forced his move to Paris. Furthermore, the new Ronaldo FC, is another new team that is widely deemed to be competitive enough to be at Real Madrid's or Barcelona's level.

What I thought was possibly a good window of 2 years for Neymar to win the Champions League vs. an ageing generation of declining superclubs, is now arguably one of the most highly competitive Champions League eras of all time... Which probably works against Neymar, therefore making his move to Real Madrid all the more logical and immediate, because if Neymar stays at PSG and it continues to go badly, and he gets stuck there for another 2 years, it may well prove to be a career-defining mistake.

Moreover, Neymar definitely is statistically superior to Figo in the sense of conventional statistics, but again, Figo in his prime was arguably a more flexible player (or a less difficult player) to fit into any given system; for example, Rivaldo was more selfish and liked to hog the ball more than Messi does, but at no point in Figo's career with Barcelona, did Figo ever voiced or even implied a concern about playing in the shadow of Rivaldo, which was (I assume) the primary motivation behind Neymar's great escape. Figo can play under Messi's shadow, without complaints nor dilemmas of what could be in a club without Messi, in fact, Figo probably plays his best football in that wing-man-to-Messi setup. Given the fact that football is a team sport, I think that that is a significant factor to think about in any Neymar v Figo debate.

 

No problem. I disagree with almost all of your writing too.

Neymar had a WhoScored rating below Hazard, De Bruyne, Fellaini, Kompany, Courtois, Douglas Costa, Coutinho and Marcelo. Thus it was clearly not a vintage Neymar performance, since he tends to rate very high if he plays well and even if he plays not so well. Thomas Meunier (the right back, his direct opponent) had a lot of joy on that side (great miss vs France imho) and by and large Neymar did not exploit that space in transitions.

The problem with key passes and dribbles is that they are indiscriminate to position, opponent and situation on the pitch. Something that also applies to Messi his 2014 World Cup performance for instance (in many ways, the 40% shooting accuracy was just as telling; with Bada Bing himself coming no further than three reasonable chances).

Neymar had 7 key passes because he played the ball square after which a team-mate had a (quickly blocked) shot. That is all there is.

Now, provided that Neymar his career takes a good turn (see my post above), I don't doubt people will prop his past exploits upward over time (and knock down Hazard), in the same way the obviously limited striker Diego Milito got propped up by various usual suspects, not the least the media.

In the past I said Neymar has the potential to be the best Brazilian since Ronaldo (in my subjective perception).

 

re: Brazil v Belgium, let's not forget that Brazil were a 10-men team (and this during the whole tournament...I mean, Fagner...curious pick).

 

Mainstream 'guru' J. Wilson recently (and harshly):

What’s your opinion about the huge importance that is being given to tactic in modern football? Do you think that the game is being analysed in excess?

That is a danger, of course, and I think the boom (in English at least) of amateur blogs about tactics is a little weird, especially as they so often don’t conform to anything coaches say. And it’s clearly true that certain players can become frustrated by being asked always to be thinking tactically. But then that itself is part of tactics: you look at somebody like Eden Hazard, who needs a certain freedom to play at his best, and a good coach accommodates the rest of his team to that. But then you have Neymar who is such a liability tactically that he becomes a problem for his team.

https://fulbofulbo.com/2018/10/02/j...ado-persiguiendo-los-estilos-de-otros-paises/

 

The Neymar criticism is IMO a standard case of misguided people trying to explain why a player is not winning big titles for his team by finding these magical intangibles he lacks. Tactical liability, bad finisher (data proves opposite) etc. I think his injury last season and PSG team lacking a DM and elite defense and goalkeeping in general had and will have more to do with why he doesn't win more than anything else. For Brazil, he may well have not been 100% healthy and they lost to a really good Belgium team.

I mean if Neymar is such a huge tactical liability, how did he win the treble with Barca and score 7 goals in the CL from the QF onwards?

 

Interesting analysis on Neymar's participation in the World Cup:

https://statsbomb.com/2018/07/the-great-neymar-debate/


Just a note: I agree that he was far from 100% healthy there.

 

Well yes, that is one thing that make the word "liability" a tad harsh perhaps, but back then he was dribbling and involvement wise not at his peak yet, and the fact he had 10 goals but typically 0 assists in the campaign signals it was a restricted role. He was helped a bit by the improved form of Busquets, Messi and Suarez (who needed his time to adapt) in the 2nd half of the season. Generally I'd say he was the third most important piece in that forward line (except for the rare times Messi was not playing, even in games as 'El Clasico'), and arguably did not reach the same importance as Suarez had in 2015-16 I'd say.

Yes as always context matters and even the most dominant athletes have minor imperfections (for ex. Messi had three registered bad touches against Tottenham; same for Pelé and all the rest). Football media is very opportunistic for sure, and they can reason after the fact.

If you imply/say that context withholds him from being the next best thing to Messi, that is a somewhat defensible proposition.

This is what the youth coach Xavi Llorens, who worked with him, said: "Messi, in another team, would have been the best player in the world but Barça allowed him to reach the top 4 or 5 years sooner than he otherwise would have."
https://www.uefa.com/video/spotlight/video/videoid=1878468.html?autoplay=true
https://www.fcbarcelona.com/footbal...-leo-messi-is-released-in-catalan-and-spanish

Or Josep Colomer to Michael Calvin:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...ever-play-in-the-premier-league-a6886476.html

This is further made credible by that both Cristiano and Messi have said that a lot comes from 'instinct', and more so when the ball is live on their feet.
https://books.google.com/books?id=F-GIgh7khQkC&lpg=PT571&dq=messi visualise&hl=nl&pg=PT384#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/lionel-messi-im-not-sort-guy-who-shouts-and-screams-match?page=0,1
https://en.as.com/en/2018/09/15/football/1537024200_765446.html

Finally, injuries are a nasty thing. It prevents someone from training on things and he has to find rhythm again.