cristiano Ronaldo's dribbling ability

I think Cristiano Ronaldo at his peak in dribbling probably was in that third tier you mention. A lot of people play down his dribbling because it relied more on sheer speed (as opposed to close control) than many other great dribblers. Not that he didn't have great close control too, but a lot of his effectiveness came with the "kick it past your opponent and beat him to the ball" move. Some people don't think of that as dribbling ability, and if they don't, then that provides the reason they wouldn't rate Cristiano Ronaldo's dribbling as highly. However, I tend to care just about effectiveness no matter how it is achieved. Whether he beat defenders through close control or by simply being faster than them, Cristiano Ronaldo was a very very effective dribbler. And so I think it's perfectly reasonable to put him in that third tier.

With that said, it does bear noting with Cristiano Ronaldo that his peak in dribbling was not that long and did not much coincide with his peak in scoring. Personally, I wouldn't say he was at that dribbling level in 2010-2011 anymore, for instance. He was still a very good dribbler that season--so I'm sure you could come up with videos of him making great dribbles--but he had started utilizing it less. The same could arguably be said for the 2009-2010 season. I think his dribbling that season was a bit below his very peak dribbling. But not enough below that I wouldn't count it as his prime. So I'd say his peak dribbling was 2006-2007 to 2009-2010. In that period, I think he was in that third tier of dribbling legends. One problem for Cristiano Ronaldo's legacy is that that period does not really coincide with his best scoring years. All those years with 50+ goals a season have come outside of his dribbling prime (and he pretty rapidly declined in dribbling, so this is quite a meaningful issue). 2007-2008 was still a great scoring year, but it was a hair below his later scoring level. In my opinion, 2009-2010 was the only season that he perhaps combined his peak dribbling with his peak scoring. That's why I think it was his peak in terms of quality, even if it was not his peak in terms of achievements.

 

To some extent, I suppose 4 years is not a super small dribbling peak. There are plenty of players with similar dribbling peaks. The example of R9 is a bit disingenuous though, because his dribbling peak was cut short by injury. But it is true that CR7 is far from the only player to have a relatively short dribbling peak. That doesn't make it not worth noting, though. Those that sustained their peak dribbling longer should get some credit for that in rankings, IMO.

The next issue you have is: "basically you don't think he should be rated very highly as a dribbler because he was not a goat goal scorer at the same time." That's not what I meant. How I rate him as a dribbler is independent of how I rate him as a scorer. The point doesn't relate to how good of a dribbler Cristiano Ronaldo is. It relates to the next logical question: How does his dribbling ability affect his ultimate overall ranking? We know he has been a GOAT-level scorer. In my opinion, the extent to which he combined that with fantastic dribbling is highly relevant to his ranking (and ultimately, you and I both know the point of this thread is to raise peoples' overall ranking of Cristiano Ronaldo). My point was that he didn't quite combine it, except perhaps 2009-2010 (with 2007-2008 really only being a hair behind in scoring). So we aren't exactly dealing with a player who was a GOAT-level scorer and third-tier-legendary dribbler. We are dealing with a player who was a third-tier-legendary dribbler in one phase of his career and a GOAT-level scorer in another phase. That's still quite notable and highly impressive, of course. But I personally think it's conceptually different than having the two things overlap for very substantial periods of time. That was my only point. It doesn't mean he wasn't a fantastic dribbler in the 2006-2010 time period.

Your response to that is to point out that Cristiano Ronaldo did, in fact, score a good deal in the 2006-2010 time period. But that really misses the point. I didn't say he wasn't a very good scorer in that time period. I said he wasn't a GOAT-level scorer. And that is undoubtedly true. The numbers you provided do not dispute that (0.66 goals per match is very good but is not GOAT-level). He was arguably at his peak scoring level in 2009-2010 (which I've already talked about), and he was just a hair below that in 2007-2008, having a fantastic scoring season. But in 2006-2007 and 2008-2009, his scoring was good, but not great. Less than 0.5 goals a match both seasons. That's particularly notable as it pertains to 2006-2007, since I think we can both acknowledge that that was his absolute peak in dribbling.

Basically, I'm not denigrating his peak dribbling ability. I basically agreed with you on where his peak dribbling stands. I'm just saying we should keep in mind that it declined relatively quickly compared to some other dribbling greats, and that his dribbling peak and scoring peak had relatively little overlap.

 

Well, this has been discussed a few times of course. Some think he's essentially 2nd best of his generation, others think he never was as good/consistent/great as e.g. Hazard, Ribery, Robben or a striker playing close to the box as Zlatan (or even in the crowded box).

As far as I'm aware the only tangible things as guideline - as opposed to hearsay and marketing hoopla -- are the historical OPTA data (number of dribbles, success rate, position of dribbles in tournaments) and the type of goals scored by a player.
('duels won' are not the same as dribbles won)

'We' arrived at the conclusion that e.g. Baggio had a respectable number of dribble goals against 'tough' Serie A defenses. That is not mere trivia because a) near or inside the box the dribbles are harder, especially not performed after a quick transition/recovery; b) it has a tangible purpose - a goal.

I think Cristiano Ronaldo is an anomaly but not a generational great in dribbling in the way Matthews, Pelé, Best, Cruijff, Maradona, Baggio (?), Ronaldo Luis were. What's the base behind placing Baggio and Cruijff two full tiers below Maradona? If length of form is a consideration: shouldn't this be applied to all players?

I think Cristiano was a good dribbler and more effective/purposeful than some might think (disparity in club capabilities and players are two sides of same coin), but more in the way Di Stefano, Eusebio, Rummenigge, Platini, Van Basten, Stoichkov and Rivaldo were effective and sensible dribblers. For ex. Eusebio has a few impressive dribble goals against strong opposition. Some of the guys above him had maybe a very short peak in dribbling, but I don't think Cristiano his peak stood out as much. Close to goal it was pretty effective.

 

That's not really what I wanted to say, and it was meant as a compliment because it's about the hardest thing to perform, and it is influential/effective. Did not want to upset you!

Fair enough. I have some great games in my mind (for Stoichkov too), and some data too.

Here I would be a bit more favorable to CR7. It's tough to compare of course but looking at directional control, turning away 180 degrees, nutmegs etc. then I don't think CR7 was like Puskas but actually well comparable to his contemporary Di Stefano at this aspect.

Anyway, you asked about dribbling and I gave my 2 cents above - how to roughly measure it and who might apply.

 

Incredible dribbler in his prime. Took the world by storm, making some of the world's best defenders look foolish. Not that great technically, that's an area he unfortunately lacks - nowhere near close the GOATs nor players of this generation...

 

I agree. if we are talking technical ability based on a dribbling perspective, than I would honestly put Cr7 as good as any player in history. However, he does not have the agility and low sense of gravity to compete with Maradona and Messi or Cruyff for example. But there is not a single dribbling move that Cr7 cannot perform.

I agree that at his peak, he is definitely in the 3rd tier, I may even put him on the lower spectrum of the 2nd tier behind Cruyff , Best, and Di Stefano (thats a big maybe). I still cant figure out whether to put R9 in the 1st or 2nd tier.

Im not gonna punish Cristiano for his speed and his intelligence to use it effectively, so i dont count him pushing the ball past players as points off because he has shown an ability to mix it up

 

His first touch isn't consistently great and oftentimes betrays him, while his ball reception with aerial balls is a weak area of his game.

Just with Real Madrid, Isco, Modric, Benzema are superior technically. You can move to Barcelona and you have got Messi, Iniesta for example.

 

I appreciate your courteousness my friend. Ronaldo just fumbles the ball a bit too many times and I've been observing him for years. The thing is he can pull off the most outrageous first touches, but he lacks the consistency. He struggles in particular with volleys - literally misses wildly 99% of the time . Just a couple areas of the game he could improve if he applied himself.

 

@SayWhatIWant @carlito86
are we arguing technical ability or dribbling ability???
because now people are discussing 1st touch and its beginning to be off topic.

 

Repped for the work that went into the video, and re-editing it etc.

I can see the argument you're making in terms of athletic effectiveness on the run (with ample technical ability to make use of it). I guess best Portuguese dribbler ever could even be a good topic to be fair! My vote might go to Figo (who I feel had more deception and/or fluency on his dribbles at times, but to be fair some of the runs that C.Ronaldo could do and you show on the video would be regarded as good ones for Figo too I'm sure) but there is Eusebio (another power/long distance dribbler but with skill and who could do well over short distances too with twists and turns) of course and also this player - Paulo Futre:

(Even more than Figo he's on the technical/deceptive end of the scale in style and effectiveness; but all these have good pace which if Rui Costa or Chalana had they might be in the discussion too as as it was they incorporated some quality dribbling - mainly gliding through midfield and earning space on the wing respectively although I haven't seen loads of Chalana).

I guess Faas Wilkes is in the same category as Meazza and Finney (some impressive footage can be found but his reputation forms a large part of any claims I suppose). At least for top 20, if not top 10 (maybe not but not sure) I tend to think Brian Laudrup is a good candidate:

(Can't quite recall if this is the best one for his dribbling, even though the title suggests it, but there are various videos around for him as well as for single games like one I posted earlier today actually).

 

I think the best Portuguese dribbler is Figo. He was as far as close control goes sort of a generational great.

 

Yes, like I say that feels a fair call to me personally (easier to argue that than that he is the best overall Portuguese player or was at his peak I suppose; although conversely maybe it's easier to argue for CR7 over Eusebio as dribbler than overall player still - not sure really what the consensus would be there).

Maybe one thing Figo didn't do very much was long dribbles from near his own penalty area to the opposition box, but he was great at going outside or coming inside on either wing, and could slice his way through the middle with fluency, evasiveness and as you say precise control and balance too. Not as good as a Baggio or Zico in and around the box (with a view to scoring himself) I suppose but more capable of dribbling past players frequently down the wing or through midfield.

 

C.Ronaldo used to be a good dribbler when he was young
And i agree with Puck,Figo is the best Portugal dribbler,one of the hottest winger of all time

 

Yeah, I see what you're getting at with long runs anyway - in Figo's case maybe it is 50/50 between his attributes and his choices in terms of why he didn't do more (not to say he did none) direct runs that ended with shots etc - maybe his attributes and choices merged well often with a mini dribble opening something up in terms of a pass or something and it was often a good choice to move the ball on to a team-mate.

The Futre vid I felt at least had some examples of dribbling but yeah ofc it's far from exclusively based on his dribbling. That's the problem with older players though - I guess when you make the C.Ronaldo ones or when someone does a Messi passing video, then it's possible to trawl through vast amounts of footage but that isn't available so much for older players (goals and assists probably are moreso in a lot of cases though). On the other hand I suppose it can also be easy to get a 'perfect' impression of an ex-player from a compilation video, so it works both ways to some extent in different ways.

 

Oh, and interesting what you say about Brian Laudrup yeah. Not sure about more talented overall compared to Michael (when we start to see vision and ingenuity etc 'talents' anyway) but while I might just about go with Michael as a better dribbler (maybe) at his most fluent (and particularly with mazy runs) maybe Brian had a little more pace (the impression might be exaggerated when they played in the same era and Michael was older though) and actually better capabilities/talent for running with the ball at pace and dribbling past and around players that way. As similar as their style/motion is in certain ways (Ruud Gullit observed that I remember, and Michael talked of Brian being like a mirror doing some of the same things as a team-mate) there are differences and even when dribbling in wide positions I think Brian was better at earning space in a Garrincha-esque way you could say (a few examples on that video) wheras Michael especially on the left a little better at slaloming and gliding down the outside before crossing.

Anyway, yeah you had him in mind anyway so cool.

 

Yes, as I indicated above I think CR7 as a dribbler is comparable to the effectiveness of an Eusebio, Rummenigge, MvB, Stoichkov. It's not too difficult to show impressive solo runs for all of them, even nutmegs.

Eusebio at the 1966 World Cup is in terms of dribbling (the number and success rate) some way above Cristiano in any of his tournaments (and with 16, 24, 32 qualifying there have been more opportunities), but Cristiano has probably done enough and consistently to be regarded around that region regardless.

Figo is imho a borderline generational great, maybe a full stop generational great in dribbling. Many people would think of Ronaldo from that era, but I can definitely see the point as well that he was inconsistent against the big club teams (andsoforth). People picture Figo as a winger but forget his puncturing incisiveness from central areas.

Figo as a player shouldn't be underestimated (adding things like multiple 'Don Balon' trophies for performance and consistency, consistent delivery of assists irrespective of club and playing system, and high GoalImpact together creates a strong picture) but Cristiano Ronaldo has an argument/case to be the best European footballer ever, purely as a footballer. Not everyone e.g. Mourinho, Blatter will agree or like it but that case exists. Possibly also that he, in the way Arsene Wenger said in 2014 about Cruijff, "for me he is the born football player". Meaning: to the extent it is possible an autodidactic player and with little outside help (very simplistically put) - and indeed, for some he's the consummate professional.

As a dribbler though I think Figo was a generational great (or very close at least), and he was it for a longer period in my opinion.

The ankle injury CR7 suffered in 2008 and 2009 took a toll (from which he or his medics couldn't recover; legally at least). Simple as that.

 

Yeah, as you know I tend to feel the best claim for best European player is held by the player Wenger was talking about (I know, as a big fan, you feel as good as he was as a player at peak and over career that it's everything he did for the game including as player that marks him out as the number 1 European figure or even world figure I guess and ofc it's not unusual for people to call him most influential person in football history and suchlike).

I guess maybe Wenger meant that he had all the natural attributes to be a great player, even if they get enhanced with experience/knowledge etc. Interestingly Cruyff once said that M.Laudrup was 'luckier' to have a less fragile body or something didn't he (I think you posted whatever I'm thinking of) so didn't necessarily see himself as being the 'perfect' born player in some respects perhaps, but then maybe whatever fragilities he had maybe helped him become more rounded in some ways, perfecting the use of outside of the boot passes etc.

Anyway, not to veer too much into best European player discussions but bring it back to dribbling - I've said before that I think it's slightly easier to split off selections of best dribblers as opposed to best passers (I think you agreed) but it's probably still hard to pigeon-hole players as top 20 or top 50 or whatever. And maybe it comes down to what counts as dribbling too (do the roulettes or ball skills to earn space of a Zidane or say an Okocha count?; how about surging forwards with the ball into space with defenders in the vicinity which as has been discussed applies to C.Ronaldo, also Eusebio, Kaka I suppose - Cruyff himself probably comes partially into that category to be fair but then also into the category of being a great dribbler in terms of jinking or gliding past players wheras C.Ronaldo at lower pace stands out less which I think Carlito says too even if he can still work his way past a player or two and score like vs Galatassary in the CL in 13/14 as one example).

Yes, I think Figo as a generational great in dribbling (borderline all-time too I guess) makes sense and as you describe it was not only down the wings where he excelled with it by any means. In some ways/scenarios better than Brazilian Ronaldo indeed I guess, but overall it's hard to look past R9's capabilities with direct but skilful dribbling right through the centre of a team even if as you say he didn't often score goals that way against the very best/biggest teams.

I suppose C.Ronaldo is at the least in the argument as second best dribbler of his generation (Robben or alternatively Kaka for example as competitors - especially as the claims are based more on his earlier years and anyway considering Hazard or potentially the new Man City player Marlos Moreno if he proves to be a great dribbler over the coming years as in the same generation might be equivalent to considering the Laudrups or Ronaldinho for example in Figo's generation even if Figo's true peak ended soon after, or in conjunction with, his dribbling peak wheras C.Ronaldo's case is a bit different).