English players Dual Nationality thread

Don't think the likes of Greenwood, jones or philips were ever serious contenders for Jamaica

 

This was my point back there. On the whole, people in the UK really don't give a toss about the Gold Cup, and while I accept that it could be different for Brits of Jamaican descent... in most cases, I kind of doubt it.

The chance to go to a World Cup, though, for a player who's unlikely to do it with England, could be a huge draw.

 

Not being pedantic but most players of Jamaican descent are English, probably all, so why say brits.

 

Because I was talking about people in the UK, not England. What's it to you anyway?

 

For someone who is never worried about losing players he likes, Roverman really does get emotional about any news story about a player playing for a different country.

Just chill out. Most of this stuff is nonsense, you don't need to have the exact same rant every single time it happens. It's just the same thing over and over again.

 

This thread has far too many pages in recent weeks, for players that are never likely to change nations, and I include Neco Williams to England in that. Barely warranted discussion.

 

Greenwood, not unless he suffers injuries and his form drops.

But Phillips surprises me a bit. That's a big first step for a guy who hasn't played above the C-Ship. He could get on for 9 mop-up minutes and never play again and end any chance of going to the WC. If he just wants to play for the nation of his birth, more than playing for the nation of his heritage at a WC, I get that. Fair enough. I'm a little surprised, however.

 

Surprised that he's chosen the country he was born in? I have irish heritage but I would go with England every time

 

To be fair, both England and Jamaica are "the nation of his heritage".

With respect to "mop-up minutes", what's he supposed to do? Reject the call-up he wants because he might prove not to be good enough?

 

If that's what he wants, then go for it, by all means.

I'm not sure I would make the same one. But I don't think it's a bad one.

 

There goes Maitland-Niles.

I do have to say, I didn't really buy it before, but there may be something to the "Jamaica-Eligibility" ploy as a useful strategy for increasing England chances. That is to say, a strategy whereby a good player on the fringe of the England pool who looks like he may be overlooked, has his Jamaica eligibility widely reported alongside the notion that he is being considered by the Jamaican FA, and then is suddenly in the England side.

It worked for Danny Rose a while back, but not for Michail Antonio. Phillips and Maitland-Niles, however, have now both gone from two players who most would not have projected in Southgate's side one month ago to squad members today.

Mason Holgate and Demarai Gray should really consider giving this a try. It might get them to the Euros if they can show some form and play the card well enough this coming season.

I very strongly desire to see Southgate give both Phillips and AMN their debuts next week and cap-tie them. I am tired of talking about them and why they don't belong in delusional Jamaica fans Fantasy XIs.

In other news, Ben Godfrey is apparently eligible. Former Tottenham defender and recent England U21 Kyle Walker-Peters is also reportedly on the radar.

 

Walker-Peters was called up by Antigua & Barbuda U20s a few years ago. Dunno if that means he's not eligible for Jamaica though.

Soon off to Antigua with the cuzzy @KyleLPeters #Qualifiers ⚽️☀️🙌

— Connor Peters (@ConPeters96) May 18, 2014

 

As soon as maitland-niles was called up I thought 'athlone won't be happy'

 

I think Demari Gray should focus on trying to bring his best form more often on the pitch. He was called up to the senior squad in 2018 after a couple dropped out but never got on the pitch. Holgate has been progressed well on the pitch so will fancy his chances of getting in the England squad in the next 18 months or so.

AMN has been getting some hype over here recently for some reason. Got man of the match in the Charity Shield yesterday. Pundits seem incredulous that Arsenal will seemingly sell him.

 

Maybe I'm being dumb but can someone confirm these eligibility criteria for grealish reverting back to Ireland? The Irish really seem to think he's got a chance of changing back after his latest England snub.
Is he eligible to switch back now? And what about when these new rules come into effect?

 

The law they are changing allows players to make their one time switch after playing in a competitive match for another nation as long as they capped 4 or under times and were under 21.

Grealish has already made his one time switch, I don't see anything in the rule change that would change his situation. While the one time switch rule remains in place he will remain ineligible.


With the changes coming in that once again make players switching nation even easier I think FIFA should attempt to balance things out a bit. I'd be strongly in favour of removing the grandparents law which always strikes me as a pretty tenuous link to a country.

 

Funnily enough I was browsing on a Irish forum to see what they were saying about the rule changes and it would appear many were not in favour of it and they think they will be worse of because of it and many players that would normally be available for them won’t. I must admit though, it’s a bit of a head scratcher just trying to really understand it all.

 

To be honest, reading the rules through I would suspect there's a heavy dose that these new rules which are far more lenient on nationalisation will be extremely favourable to China which FIFA will be desperate for them to be qualifying for world cups.

With the new rules you only get permanently cap tied after playing in a international tournament, so thats going to be hugely beneficial to China who do a good job of attracting a lot of Brazilian players for example who have underage caps or the odd international cap - they'll all be eligible for them now. It's something they've already started doing where possible, this will just really increase the options and quality available to them.

 

So, if anything, these new rules could actually have a negative effect on ireland's granny rule recruitment?

 

It doesn't. Merely getting called up by Antigua shouldn't cap tie him, and he doesn't appear to have made any appearances for them.

Also, a lot of Caribbeans in the UK have multiple eligibility. If I were a competent footballer, I'd be able to play for the USA, Jamaica, England, or Saint Vincent. My mother and father derive heritage from completely different islands.

That story is very common among these footballers. Guys like Walker-Peters, Callum Harriott, Nathaniel Clyne, etc can often pick from multiple Caribbean countries, Jamaica's just the biggest one.

 

1. This rule doesn't really do anything. As I detailed earlier in the thread (link below), I could not think of a single player who was not eligible for Jamaica before but would be made eligible by this change. It is an extremely narrow exception. We will get broader more meaningful rule changes eventually (I will expand on that in the next point), but this isn't it.

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/e...ionality-thread.2019295/page-98#post-38885189

2. As I also detailed in that link above, what you're suggesting goes against the political realities of football right now. Most FIFA nations (basically all of them save for the handful of elites like England, Germany, brazil, and 6 or 7 others) have every incentive to increase access to potential dual nationals, and FIFA has every incentive to give it to them. The votes will go very clearly in this direction.

Most importantly, this expansion does no real harm even to larger nations. The Frances and Englands of the world will always get the players they really want and need (the Benzemas, Kantes, Greenwoods, Sterlings, Abrahams, Sturridges, etc).

Elite young players who have clear look-ins from sides of that caliber just do not blow them off to go play for small Caribbean islands and African countries. It hasn't happened before, it isn't happening now, and it won't happen in the future.

You may say "ok sure, but this isn't the end, more rule changes are coming".

I agree. Right now, a capped senior international is allowed to make a one-time switch if he has no competitive appearances or has appeared competitively, but exclusively before turning 21 and no more than 3 times. These barriers will go - eventually, the one-time switch will be available to players at any age with any number of caps, so long as a) they were eligible for the nation they're switching to at the time they had their first cap with their current one, b) they have never made a switch before and c) they've been uncapped for at least 3 years. Give it ten years, max twenty - this is coming.

Even this most extreme scenario does no harm. Top young players will always choose Germany, France, England, etc. This expansion would just give places like Jamaica and Nigeria access to the Gabby Agbonlahors and Daniel Sturridges of the world - guys who have long outlived their usefulness for their first national side.

FIFA can't help Jamaica secure Raheem Sterlings and Greenwoods, or Nigeria with Abrahams and Dele Allis, or Mali with the N'golo Kantes and Moussa Sissokos. When England/France/etc call players of that caliber, they're gone -period.

What FIFA actually can do, however, is increase access to the pool of dual nationals that the England/Frances of the world DO NOT want. That is what you're going to see happen going forward, and there's no stopping it because FIFA has every incentive to drive it forward. It yields a) votes and b) improved quality of football (smaller nations accessing better talent = better smaller nations = better football all around, and a more balanced global game). b) is a key objective, because it leads to c) - more money.

Again, unstoppable trend. Get used to this, more is coming.

3. The grandparent rule is not tenuous.

I'm the resident Jamaica football guy here (and on reddit). I was not born in Jamaica and neither were either of my parents. My mother was born and (mostly) raised in London, I was born and (mostly) raised in the USA, and my father is from Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. I identify most closely with with Jamaica because of my connection to my maternal grandparents and time spent living there as a child.

I'm not special, lots of children/grandchildren of immigrants feel this way about one or more of their grandparents countries. Some could care less and aren't connected, but many of us are.

I understand that abuse from certain FA's (Ireland, Scotland, etc) may justify looking upon this rule in a more cynical light. I get the suspicion. But it just isn't right to dismiss the legitimate connections many have just to combat the abuse of a few.

 

It could cut against them by allowing England to recruit a dual national who has only 2 or 3 senior Ireland caps.

Here's how this could play out:

Ireland finds promising dual national, born in London with three Irish grandparents (let's say the fourth is English). He's 15.
Ireland caps him early, from U17. The player racks up dozens of youth caps through Irelands U17, U18, u19, and U20 teams, excelling at each level.

The player turns 20 and seems to be coming good. He made his debut in the EPL at 19, and quickly established himself as the best young [insert position here] in the league. Going into his age 20 season, he's already a star looking certain of a long, illustrious Premier League career.

So it's time to lock him down - we don't want England ruining the show. Ireland offers him his first senior callup, and he accepts. Irish fans breathe a sigh of relief, they've gotten him to commit. The call up is for two nations league games against Bulgaria and Finland - all he has to do is step onto the pitch for a minute and he is cap-tied for good, England can never have him.

Game day comes, and he subs in at minute 75. That's it, he's done. Irish fans rejoice, they've locked up another one. He starts the second game against Finland and is dominant. The future is bright.

Under the current rules, the story ends here - this player is an Irish international now and forever and Irish eyes are smiling.

But with the new rules, there's another chapter that Irish fans will not like (but you guys here will enjoy more).

This young star now has two competitive appearances for Ireland's seniors.The new rules say that a player can still switch with up to 3 competitive caps so long as they are not yet 21, have never made a one-time switch before, and were eligible for the nation they are now switching to prior to debuting for their current nation.

England sees that the new irish star meets all of these criteria and is therefore still eligible to join the Three Lions. He's one of the brightest stars in the Prem and fills a key hole in the current English XI. They swoop in, and offer a place in England's next squad with the implicit promise of a seat on the plane to Qatar if he's healthy. The young Irish star gives it a think, and decides the opportunity is too good to pass up. He makes the one time switch. The Irish star is not England's star. Ireland fans are distraught.

This is the drama that will follow the next Declan Rice or Jack Grealish - even if Ireland wins their commitment initially, England will loom and get a second bite of the apple. That's what will worry Irish (and Scottish, Welsh, etc) fans.

 

Thank you for simplifying that for me. The whole thing was confusing to me.

 

About time. Those cnuts have been screwing us over like this for years.

 

Course, I just wondered whether he was Antiguan but not Jamaican, nothing else.