Does Lionel Messi have too many failures to be considered the greatest footballer of all time?

Oh yeah totally forget about the . My bad and I do remember Cruijff having a great game too. But what I’m trying to say is that Platini was the guy who actually elevated them to being a European powerhouse. They reached 2 finals with him and won their first EC with him. The only time I remember Juventus being a more consistent CL powerhouse team was during Lippi era where they consecutively reached three finals. Platini only played for 5 seasons with them, where in three consecutive seasons, he dominated Serie A and was already past it by 1986. Plus, he was already 27 years old when he joined Juve. Dude was already severely impacted by injuries when he was 21 years old(or probably even earlier, but I think the injury he sustained in 1976 permanently affected him). By 27 years old, he’s obviously not going to have the same athleticism he did while he was younger, plus his injury impacted body didn’t get better either. Yet, he was consistent in a very defensive league like 80s Serie for 3 consecutive seasons out of 5. Also performed very well in both the European Cup tournaments he participated and the European Cup winners’ Cup during 1983-1984 season. Let’s not forget that he was very crucial to take France to the 1982 semi finals despite being injured and not fully fit. He was phenomenal in the 1984 Euros when he was fully fit. I have no complaints regarding Platini and I believe he was a perfect player except for his lack of the slalom style dribbling(he still was a top class dribbler though, but not GOAT tier at it). I still need to watch his games from Nancy if I get the match footages, but he was phenomenal with Saint-Etienne and Juve from what I’ve watched.

 

Longevity is a pretty stupid argument, to be honest.

Almost all of the great players were, almost by definition, great in terms of longevity.

Ronaldinho?

He self-destructed; and that is an obvious argument against him, but the idea that a healthy Ronaldinho would not have had longevity... This is when longevity becomes a very stupid argument.

And Xavi played all the games in the 2004/05 La Liga, and was playing all the games in the 2005/06 La Liga, until the serious knee injury that kept him out for what remained of the season; the knee injury happened in December, half-way through La Liga.

A lot of modern fans are just lazy and stupid, to be honest.

 

Yeah, pretty much. The modern fans have this obsession that a player also need to play until his 30s at high level to be truly great. I think CR7-Messi era have ruined the perception of longevity.

 

And the problem with this era of fans is the way they setup their criterias - team titles, stats , awards and longevity etc in such a way that at any moment /tournament the whole narrative changes suddenly .
A lot of them would tell you Messi becomes the Goat 'undisputed' suddenly if Higuain had scored that chance in 2014 wc final.

They are too lazy and lacks the understanding to compare players based on individual level and considering all aspects . For example, Messi's Goat shouts is primarily based on him scoring goals after goals and dominating stats for attacking players across European leagues for years . Add to that longevity, and of course he's also one of the top 2-3 dribblers ever , which actually attracts most casual fans , as dribbling is one of the most aesthetically pleasing thing on the pitch. So they are oblivious to his flaws . And you can hardly have a proper discussion with most of these fans because they are too lazy, blind and lacks the understanding of the game for that. The things you said about Messi lacking varieties in his game here , you can't tell them out there on most social media platforms without getting attacked and mocked.
And Cristiano Ronaldo's ascend into these debates is based on high stats year after year and team titles , particularly those CL wins. As i said , most fans are stupid and lazy. So they have this idea that these guys are some sort of Supermans , breaking limits because of the numbers .

 

@JoCryuff98
Definitely agree that Platini was the key to pushing Juve to the next level. The Sivori-Bonaperti-Charles trident already had Juve at a very high level but two decades later Platini really solidified that.

 

@sohel_bashar
I don't think team titles is a "modern fan" criteria when Pele & Maradona being considered above Cruyff is more or less built on them winning the world cup and him losing a final. Pele, Cruyff, Di Stefano and Beckenbauer's longevity were celebrated long before the lazy modern fan and everyone knew that Pele had 1283 goals and 3 world cups or that Di Stefano had 49 goals and 5 European Cups. These are not modern fan phenomena really.
If anything "Maradona carried Argentina to a world cup single-handedly" seems lazier than what CR7/Messi fans spew out.

 

Modern fans actually unironically think that Cristiano Ronaldo 2016 - 2018 was better than Lionel Messi 2016 - 2018... I mean, correct me if I'm wrong; I do not remember the old generation of fans ever unironically actually thinking that Gerd Muller was as good or even better than Johan Cruyff...

Saying that Cristiano Ronaldo 2016 - 2018 was an equal to Messi, is just as ridiculous as saying that Gerd Muller ever was on the same level as Johan Cruyff; in this regard, modern fans are just more stupid and lazier than fans used to be, in my opinion.

Statistics really are a cancer on this sport.

 

You should do research my friend because this is becoming tiring

Gerd muller finished ahead of Johan cruyff in the ballon dor race during what is widely considered to be the latters best ever campaign (1971/72)
This was his peak dribbling version also top scoring in the European cup and eredivisie but still not enough to overcome the limited gerd muller

51 years ago
Forget about the modern era!!!

Take off the rose tinted glasses
Please

Puckvanheel will scream corruption and maybe with the benefit of hindsight it wasnt the right choice but that isn't exactly what youre arguing

This actually happened
The archetypal poacher gerd muller was perceived to be superior to the peak indomitable Johan cruyff for a moment in time in history


The gerd muller vs Cristiano 16-18 equivalence


Vs





I must be dreaming

 

Right. FYI, the first game in your analysis of Iniesta/Messi missing from Barca where Iniesta was missing and Barca dropped points, Xavi, Fabregas and another starter (can't remember who) were also benched. Stats can be misleading indeed.

The first game in my analysis was:

La Liga 2011/12.

2 - 2 draw vs. Valencia (Round 5).

Xavi played; all 90 minutes.

Messi played; all 90 minutes.

Busquets played; all 90 minutes.

Fabregas played; all 90 minutes.

Dani Alves played; all 90 minutes.

Puyol played; 63 minutes.

Pedro played; 57 minutes.

Villa played; substitution for Pedro at minute 57.

Mascherano played; all 90 minutes.

Basically all of the important players played, with the exception of Iniesta and Pique.

You are wrong, as usual.

Yes indeed, statistics can and often are misleading; especially when the source is a dishonest charlatan like you.



How was football different back in the day ? I remember horrible tackles and refs not giving cards. There were less cameras back then too ... defenders used to step on ankles off the ball all the time and not get caught. What Fernandinho does is nothing new. Players back then used to get away with much more, but we didn't see lots of it.

Your understanding of this sport is mediocre at best, I have to be honest with you... But hey, at least this explains why your understanding of Lionel Messi is as irrational as it is.

Your first and perhaps biggest mistake, is this laughable misguided and mistaken perception that you have, that old school defenders could simply kill you without repercussions; in my experience watching games from the 1980s and 1990s, defenders received yellow cards all the time; this was already well the case in Maradona's time with Napoli, let alone in the softer era of the 1990s, and then the early 2000s.

The idea that defenders could get away with murder is greatly exaggerated by modern fans with a misinformed perception of reality; in reality, the yellow card was sufficiently efficient at regulating brutal fouls, which is why traditional talent existed in the first place, because the incentive for it to exist by far superseded the brutal defensive tactics of the era.

So you are completely wrong about this, as usual. And furthermore, you have failed to understand my argument; my argument is not about dangerous fouls; my argument is essentially about tactical fouls, and the fact that the yellow card is not equipped to regulate tactical fouls.

In the good old days; tactics were not sufficiently cohesive, which is precisely why Maradona and Platini could very easily 'hide' from defenders, and that literally is how the whole 'number 10' role came into existence; it was invented organically out of pure necessity, the best players had to 'hide' and escape from the robust defending, and the number 10 role was traditional precisely because it worked.

The fact that the number 10 role worked so well was, in and of itself, evidence of the fact that tactics were not sufficiently cohesive... Which means that, yes, defenders could actually defend back in the day, but also the talented players enjoyed the freedom that was required for the 'playmaker' position to even exist in the first place.

AC Milan's zonal marking revolution in the late 1980s was the beginning of the end for the number 10 role; and ever since, the yellow card has simply failed to regulate the constitutional imbalance that was created by zonal marking, and by the immediate advent of modern football.

Gheorghe Hagi was inexplicably exiled by Real Madrid, and by the rest of the big clubs of Europe; as a direct and immediate result of zonal marking, and the fact that the sport had changed so radically at the time that the managers could not find the way of making consistent good use out of a great talent like Hagi.

Players like Fernando Redondo and Rivaldo both enjoyed the luck that Hagi lacked; both Redondo and Rivaldo played in an era in which ball retention was correctly used by the tactics, which was not the case when Hagi was exiled at Real Madrid back in 1992.

Modern referee protection created a minor renaissance; the number 10 role never came back, and was still dying, but in terms of ball retention, the modern referee protection created players like Zidane, Figo, Riquelme, Ronaldinho, and Totti, to name just a few.

The modern game somehow managed to balance itself; zonal marking was the definitive end of the number 10 role; but at the same time, the modern referee protection, by lucky coincidence, immediately created a modern variation of the number 10 role.

I can say that until 2006, players like Riquelme and Ronaldinho could still, somehow, find just about enough freedom to still be relevant as a modern variation (in fact, the last variation) of the number 10 role; but at some point after 2006, tactics simply killed the number 10 role; the space and freedom that the role requires is simply, literally, and unironically, not a thing that exists in the real world.

This is what makes modern football unique; there is no balance between individuality and system; it is self-evidently a monoculture of system, intensity, and pressing; this had never happened before, because in all the previous eras of football, the game somehow managed to balance itself, and the yellow card could still get the job done.

But in the unique contest of modern football; yes, Neymar did not get hacked down by Fernandinho, but Neymar was tactically fouled out of the game, and Manchester City did not received one single yellow card after Neymar was fouled at least 10 times; this is a clear statistical indication of a constitutional imbalance, and it is absolutely irrational, to expect Neymar or Messi to simply out-play the perfect mathematical machine that is modern football.

The yellow card cannot regulate fouls that are, by the book, not yellow card fouls; this really is a very simple problem.

And this problem was nowhere near as detrimental in the 1980s nor in the 1990s, because tactics in the 1980s and 1990s still allowed plenty of freedom that players like Zidane, Riquelme, and Ronaldinho, could all exist and be the relevant players that they were.

There is no incentive for Zidane to exist in modern football, if he can be consistently nullified by modern yellow resistant rotation fouling; Zidane would be forced into becoming another Kevin De Bruyne, which is good for you if you prefer the Kevin De Bruyne type, but is bad for you if you think that football should always be, by definition and by tradition, a balanced ecosystem between system versus individuality.

The principle that a player like Zidane should always have a consistent incentive to exist; so that even if you prefer Kevin De Bruyne, at least the sport itself would remain fundamentally balanced, so that you can be entertained by players like Zidane... Diversity and talent should be protected, instead it is the tactics that are being prioritized above all else; this is literally what destroyed the Italian Serie A...

When the sport becomes a monoculture, where Kevin De Bruyne is the one and only thing that consistently works... I mean, monocultures rarely if ever are a good thing in the long term; the system inevitably ends up killing the talent it cannot produce, all the while the talent that does fit into the system becomes dull as a direct consequence of the lack of diversity i.e. the condition of existing in a monoculture.

This condition always is a lose-lose situation.

My problem is with the death of football's grand tradition; football always traditionally was a balanced chess game where individuality and system both had equal chances of winning, which is what made football such an enigmatic sport; the beautiful game.

Unfortunately, as tactics have evolved, the yellow card and red card have not evolved, and the long term result of this is the obvious constitutional imbalance of modern football; a tactical hegemony, where the system is of far greater value than the players themselves.

This is not normal... And no... What Fernandinho did vs. Paris Saint Germain is also not normal at all.

At any rate, this long term problem will become obvious after the system ends up killing the talent; something that is already happening at a rapid pace, so it is only a matter of time; the talent will dry up.



Stats are misleading indeed. First foul given to Fernandinho by the ref wasn't even a foul. Di Maria dived. Zero contact.

Di Maria dived one time...

Fernandinho fouled another 9 or 10 times...

Your argument makes no sense, as usual; and indeed, you failed to even understand what my argument was, to begin with.



Which minutes are those extra ghost fouls ? I am sure there are fouls not called. Happens every game.

I mean, I'm sorry, but at this point you just sound like a person who disagrees with me out of spite, for the sake of spite, and not for any actual valid reasons.

Honestly, did you even watched the game??

Watch the game; it literally happens all the time, in fact, the reason why Di Maria lost his temper, was because Fernandinho was not only allowed to foul as he pleased for the entirety of the game, but Fernandinho was also allowed to somehow insult and push Di Maria, when Di Maria was trying to carry on with a thrown in; Di Maria was shown the direct red card, but Fernandinho did not even received a yellow card after he obviously pushed and taunted Di Maria, which should be a yellow card per the rules.

This is not normal and does not happen in every game; are you completely out of your mind??

It is painfully obvious that Fernandinho, if he played in a team like Atalanta, would've received 2 or 3 yellow cards; never mind the obvious yellow card for his incident with Di Maria, which would extend Fernandinho's total into 3 or 4 yellow cards, if Fernandinho played for a club like Atalanta i.e. not protected by the buying power of the super clubs.

There was nothing 'normal' about Fernandinho's performance against Paris Saint Germain.

At any rate, I simply don't understand your passive-aggressive behavior, but honestly, I do have better things to do with my time, than to try to reason with a person who unironically thinks that Fernandinho's yellow resistant fouls are just a normal every-game occurrence; I mean, honestly, only a complete and resolute moron would agree with your argument.

 

@celito

Just wanted to auto-correct myself, as the below argument is more incorrect than it is correct, to be honest.


Your first and perhaps biggest mistake, is this laughable misguided and mistaken perception that you have, that old school defenders could simply kill you without repercussions; in my experience watching games from the 1980s and 1990s, defenders received yellow cards all the time; this was already well the case in Maradona's time with Napoli, let alone in the softer era of the 1990s, and then the early 2000s.

The idea that defenders could get away with murder is greatly exaggerated by modern fans with a misinformed perception of reality; in reality, the yellow card was sufficiently efficient at regulating brutal fouls, which is why traditional talent existed in the first place, because the incentive for it to exist by far superseded the brutal defensive tactics of the era.

So you are completely wrong about this, as usual. And furthermore, you have failed to understand my argument; my argument is not about dangerous fouls; my argument is essentially about tactical fouls, and the fact that the yellow card is not equipped to regulate tactical fouls.


The above argument is not completely incorrect however; I mean, it is more or less true that the brutality of defensive play, in that era, is generally romanticized and exaggerated today. But at the same time, it is also true that defensive tactics were a lot more brutal and dangerous back then; this is probably a foregone conclusion.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, as opposed to in the extreme.

At any rate, the essence of the argument still is that football in the 1980s and 1990s was not tactically perfect enough, that the tactics by far superseded the talent; which is why there were so many creative players still in 2006, let alone throughout the 1990s and 1980s.

At some point after 2006, the tactics simply superseded the talent, and nothing has been done to balance the game, now that the game can no longer balance itself out... as was traditionally the case in all the previous eras.

 

IMO, Messi was superior in those years. And I think majority of fans, players & coaches still acknowledged that but Ronaldo had the trophies and ended up winning the individual awards.
These parameters for greatness were already set back then. Whether fans nowadays misuse them is another topic, but the way greatness was judged back then is similar to now but for access to more and more Stats.

 

Ronaldo is/was a considerably more proflic goalscorer than Michel platini
More prolific,more consistent and more complete at the art of goalscoring


@babaorum tried to argue against this some time ago but no need going into that

Peak CR was considerably superior in ball carrying

A more spectacular and effective dribbler


He made the ballon dor 3 consecutive times before his 25th birthday
I say this before someone starts talking about sports science lengthening top level athletes careers



His 06/07 and 07/08 run is a better peak than Michel platini 83-85
No doubt about this IMO

He was already marked as the new improved George Best

Its not me who says this
its Pele, bobby Charlton,Johan cruyff etc who say this

Not some random guys on a football forum with all due respect

Platini won 2 league titles for juventus out of 4 during his 'peak'
Losing to Verona and napoli

Ronaldo won 3 league titles out of 3 during his peak 2007-2009 (some could say even before his peak) competiting against a very strong English top 4
Check the ratings

MVP in the PL 2006/07 and 2007/08 according to Dbs calico and all other relevant rating agencies

Was the most proflic dribbler in the 2006/07 champions league campaign and made team of the tournament View attachment 195655


Was voted MVP in the 2007/08 champions league(top scorer as well)

And went GOAT mode in the 2008/09 champions league ko stages
Platini doesn't touch this peak

Who are these players who accomplished the following by the time they were 24 years old

European golden shoe 2007/08

Unanimous MVP in 2 separate league campaigns playing in a top 5 European league
2006/07 and 2007/08

Top scorer in 1 edition of a champions league (2007/08)

Top dribbler in one edition of a champions league(2006/07)

Scored from open play in a champions quarter final,semi final and final

Was the top dribbler in a champions final(8 successful according to opta)
InStat says 12
View attachment 195657
Other sources put the number between 10-12


For reference they (@InStatFootball) have Lionel messi as completing 13 dribbles in the 2014/15 CL final even though opta says 10


Anyone who says peak Ronaldo is just a goalscorer is to put it mildly
stupid


If not then they are ignorant in which case they shouldn't be engaging in discussions they have limited knowledge on

outside of Lionel messi you will find anyone who did this all by their 24th birthday (over the past 30-40 years)

At his peak he was an all time great goalscorer with the all round game of a generational great
Probably one of the top 5 most direct attacking players that ever played the game (i put there Pele,messi,R9 and eusebio)

So all this talk of natural talent is complete nonsense
Zidane/platini/van basten/ronaldinho

Please if you will post their notable contributions before they were 25 years old so we can compare them side by side and see who was the real prodigy
The comparisons are really preposterous the more you think about it




Neymars run for PSG since 2018 is very likely superior to platini at Nancy or saint ettiene


Even dearman says neymar is the best peak performer in ligue 1 history and he is much less a fan of modern era players then you are

And however crap ligue 1 is now it is in a whole different league of greatness compared to what it was then(late 1970s)
No one can argue this (not even the french posters here)

 

Gerd muller finished ahead of Johan cruyff in the ballon dor race during what is widely considered to be the latters best ever campaign (1971/72)
This was his peak dribbling version also top scoring in the European cup and eredivisie but still not enough to overcome the limited gerd muller

Old friend, your argument only makes sense, no offense, if the Ballon d'Or was voted by the actual fans; otherwise, if the Ballon d'Or was voted by a minority of pretentious journalists...

How did the voting worked for the 1971/72 Ballon d'Or??

Journalists in 2018, voted Luka Modric as the best in the world; but the actual fans still believed that Messi and Cristiano were, by some distance, the two best players in the world...

So again, the actual structure of the 1971/72 Ballon d'Or is central to your argument; how did the voting worked? Were the votes exclusively journalist votes, or were the votes fan votes?

At any rate, if I were to make the reasonable assumption that the 1971/72 Ballon d'Or was not voted by the actual fans... but rather by an incredibly small community of journalists; then your argument immediately is exposed as a very misguided and mistaken premise.

My general impression of your modernist 'philosophy' can be reduced to a very simple argument:

1. Diego Maradona was indifferent in the Serie A; overrated outside of his World Cup 1986.

2. Michel Platini played in the weak and boring Italian Serie A of the 1980s, where Platini was scoring more goals than mediocre strikers, which is easy to do in hindsight; overrated.

3. Ronaldo Nazario 1997/98 did not dribble more than Cristiano Ronaldo 2006/07; and at the same time, Ronaldo Nazario 1997/98 was also not as involved in the build up as Cristiano Ronaldo 2006/07...

Cristiano Ronaldo 2006/07 was already a better player than the best ever version of Ronaldo Nazario, which demonstrates how much better Cristiano Ronaldo was in 2007/08 and 2011/12.; this is not even a realistic comparison, Cristiano Ronaldo was better by several miles.

4. Zidane was probably never even the best player in any league that he played, for reference, he was the 8th best player in La Liga 2002/03, which is one of his better seasons in La Liga; overrated... I think Kevin De Bruyne is a much better player.

5. Luis Figo was not even a world class player outside of only 1999/00 and 2000/01; only 2 seasons; very overrated player; Di Maria is probably better, to be honest.

I could go on and on, but your opinion is incredibly one-sided and easy to predict; you always side in favor of new players, and you always side against old players.

Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are the greatest players of all time, in your opinion. Of course, you will never honestly explain what happens to the great and mighty Cristiano Ronaldo, when he happens to disintegrate vs. Atletico Madrid 2014, Atletico Madrid 2016, Uruguay 2018 i.e. teams that are actually good and disciplined at the art of defence.

In conclusion: Agree to disagree my friend. We have fundamentally different ways of 'watching' this sport.

 

Across all matches – friendlies, league, cup, international, indoor and appearances for select XI’s – 1971-72 saw Müller register a breathtaking 151 goals in 100 games.

Do you have to be a pretentious journalist to think gerd Muller who scores in one single year as many goals as zinedine zidane scored in his entire career(155~ goals in over 700 matches)was comparable to peak Johan cruyff?

I don't think so
Its not the worse call ive seen made (in fact far from it)
And cruyff in his best phases was the better player he definitely was not much better

About atletico Madrid....

A list of players to score hat-tricks against Atletico Madrid since Diego Simeone was appointed their manager in December 2011 (418 games in charge):

Cristiano Ronaldo - 4 hat-tricks v Atletico, including 3 in his last 8 apps

List ends pic.twitter.com/60uEL0sHAa

— Sky Sports Statto (@SkySportsStatto) March 12, 2019

You are so divorced from reality leadleader that it completely boggles the mind

 

Neymar is a better version of Ronaldinho - a brilliant soloist with poor mental, attitude and fitness, certainly good enough to dominate the below-par Ligue 1 but not good enough to carry a team at the higher echelon.

 

Nine of these ten are in the latest Top 10s published by FourFourTwo and the BBC. The difference is Puskas for Maldini.

Ten years ago Miguel Delaney, chief football writer of The Independent newspaper, published a series of lists based on mathematical formulae. Link below.

Seven of the ten players above were in his Top 10. Those missing were Ronaldo Nazario (18th), Maldini (52nd) and Cristiano Ronaldo who did not make the Top 100 - "as it stands, his exceptional abilities are offset by a selfishness that can prove a liability at the top level."

Messi was 8th.

Delaney's greatest international team was Brazil 1970-73, and top European club side Ajax 1965-73.

http://footballpantheon.com/2011/09/the-100-greatest-players-of-all-time/12/

 

Messi has had ups and downs he is surely the best player in this generation. However I am not on board with him being the Greatest player ever as I have Maradona and Pele above him for the simple fact that they overcame adversity. Maradona played for far inferior teams and was still able to deliver in difficult circumstances. Messi has only performed vs Ecuador under adversity and that was their B team. Pele was more complete that's why for me he is above and performed more in the International stages. Another weakness of Messi is he can become pretty predictable when things don't go his way.

 

The deck was stacked against us in this adidas and Horst Dassler sponsored award.

It always was - and is even more so the case the last 25 years.

Now it is waiting for Ruben "zero goals" Dias winning the double PFA and FWA honors while this was denied to Van Dijk... Just as another confirmation of how the forces work together and create predictable outcomes.

P.S. Ronaldo also ranked higher in the awards between 2015-2018 while most observers still saw Messi as the better performer/player.

 

There is no data for R9 dribbles in 97-98 and it was not covered for OPTA at that time. Some Italian media showed 4 dribbles per 90, but it was early competition.

The Youtuber Bundesteam indicated R9 completed around 5 dribbles per 90 in a erased video, but it was for his 96-97 Barcelona. I counted 4.4 dribbles against Top Teams that year.

#34
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/r9-vs-cr7-through-the-eyes-of-players-and-coaches.2109020/page-2

Cristiano Ronaldo did completed more dribbles in 07/08 EPL (2.95) and 09-10 La Liga (3.3) than in 06-07 EPL (2.75) acc to OPTA.

Btw, even tho GoalImpact site rated R9s peak form higher than CR7s peak form (playing in a inferior teams, meaning R9 was the most outlier here - and the better and more talented player), the same GoalImpact (with their average) basically rates 06-07 as CR7s best level in his carrer alongside 07/08, 09/10 and 10/11 seasons, basically they are in the same echelon (one level below best R9s peak, 96-97 and 97-98 and no much difference for the 02-03, at least in terms of impact) and he started decline already in 11/12 season.... that fits very well with my own eye test abot Cristiano Ronaldo.

Cristiano Ronaldo had another role in his other seasons (more of a forward goalscorer than a elite ball carrier), but he didn't improved his 06-07 impact/form perhaps.

 

"Too many failures"? I wonder how many of the failures have been Messi's rather than the team's or manager's failures: that is, how many times he has been one of the poorest performers of his team, causing an elimination or lost title.

I can think of a few: vs Inter in 2010, vs Atlético (both in CL and Liga) in 2014, vs Atlético again in 2016, vs Roma and vs France in 2018.

Is that much?

To compare with Maradona, it isn't. Maradona was held responsable for Barcelona's defeat vs Man United in 1984 and Napoli's repeated failures in the European Cups: vs Toulouse in 1986, vs Real Madrid in 1987, vs Werder Bremen in 1989 (3-8 agg!) and, to a lesser degree, vs Spartak in 1990.

Messi has had very few dips in these 15 years and especially performing superbly in Clásicos (where Cristiano Ronaldo was very average on most occasions) so emphasising the few failures of his carreer is quite misleading.