80's/90's cologne had a couple of great ones in Pierre Littbarski & Thomas Haessler. Though Reinhard Libuda (60s/70s Dortmund & Schalke) was possibly germany's best ever.
In this post the ex-player Tostão who played for and against Pelé and Garrincha says that in terms of skill Ronaldinho is 1000 times better than Pelé
In this photo the ex-player Rivellino who played against Pelé in clubs and played with Pelé in the national team also says that Ronaldinho was more skilled than Pelé
In this photo Pelé himself says that Ronaldinho does things with the ball that he couldn't do with more skill
my top of Dribbling and skill, counting effectiveness and repertoire: 1 Maradona 2 Ronaldinho 3 Ronaldo 4 Messi 5 Garrincha 6 Cruijff 7 Pelé 8 Savicevic 9 Best 10 Sivori 11 Okocha
To add to my earlier posts, I would say two late mentions who I'd have in mind as possibles for top 25, or otherwise just behind feasibly (similar to the after thoughts of Storey-Moore and Gray for the British list I attempted), would be Georgi Kinkladze and Giussepe Meazza. And since I expanded into passing, and passing+dribbling combined, in other posts like #20 or #25, I'd say for passing a different combo of recent and ancient players that I'd mention similarly as being possibilities would be Cesc Fabregas and Ernst Ocwirk (like with Meazza for dribbling, or even moreso, only brief glimpses can be found footage wise to verify the idea, but reputation wise he seems very much a contender). For passing+dribbling combined probably Rivelino and Bobby Charlton come to mind the most, from those I hadn't previously included.
So effectively I ended up with this as some kind of estimation for best passers+ dribblers combined (without feeling clear about the exact order obviously) 1-Cruyff,2-M.Laudrup,3-Maradona,4-Pele,5-Messi,6-Zico,7-Rivera,8-Figo,9-Zidane,10-Kopa,11-Ronaldinho,12-Beckenbauer,13-Liedholm,14-Bochini,15-Deyna,16-Savicevic,17-Baggio,18-Gascoigne,19-Rui Costa,20-Tigana, 21-Susic, 22-Stojkovic, 23-Hagi, 24-Suarez Miramontes, 25-Platini, 26-Rivelino, 27-Bobby Charlton So I had it as a very close call for top Frenchman in this. I've noticed this very good video for Zidane's passing abilities (inevitably featuring a lot of exceptional ball control too), so maybe @Estel that's one you'd like if you didn't see it (I noticed you posted today so thought I'd give you a tag here): ZIDANE Free Passing Lessons - YouTube As this thread is meant to be about dribbling primarily lol, maybe this Kopa video focused on his game vs Germany in 1958 is the more relevant one to add though (although clearly the passing is evident too, with quality assists delivered): Raymond Kopa vs Germania occ Mondiali 1958 - YouTube
Thanks for the tag @PDG1978, I appreciate it very much. The video is quite good with some rather rare footage, although it does miss quite a few spectacular passes. Still much better than most of what is out there showcasing his passing ability. Also, from amongst modern players, what do you think about adding Modric to your list of dribblers+passers?
No problem, thought you might like it, but yeah IIRC even the assist vs England in 99 might not be there so it's not exhaustive as a collection of his best passers or something, but maybe just helps illustrate his quality at it, which isn't the first thing he'd known for. I felt like maybe you felt/feel like he gets a slightly harsh time on here (maybe even from me at times I don't know) so I thought it was worth the tag anyway. Maybe if I'm not careful I'll get into too much of an argument about old eras vs recent ones again (that wasn't the intention when replying to @carlito86 on the other thread earlier, but probably we all get tempted to oppose a particular view or make a point at times eg I guess you didn't really want to be argumentative with @comme either with the post I'd noticed but just feel Zidane's performances can get underplayed at times in general and since you're a fan you notice it). But I'm not sure I'd go so far as to add Modric in among those I named, but just cos I'd not be inclined that way doesn't mean he'd be far away or be a bad shout for the topic in general. Could be an interesting one vs Iniesta maybe in terms of a contemporary of his. Anyway, I'm overdue logging off for the night as England vs Scotland has started so I'll concentrate fully on that now I think!
A very sound way to look at things, so do agree. Iniesta is a good shout too btw, just that he doesn’t click me as the type of exceptional passer we might be looking for here. Between him and Xavi the latter seemed much more accomplished in this sense. Maybe it’s just my take since I don’t see the same distinction when comparing Modric and Kroos, although in dribbling ability I feel it clearly and place Modric ahead, hence my only naming him for your list. And yeah, good luck with the game.
Haha, Scotland played some very good football to be fair, so England probably ought to be thankful for the one point they achieved! And yeah, any list I make should not be taken too seriously, as it's more just my own estimation as an interesting guide, and I wouldn't know exactly where I'd slot in Modric and Iniesta (whether it could be 28 and 29, or somewhat lower), but my feeling would be Iniesta would have the edge for dribbling (though Modric's skills with the ball were/are very good in general to be fair) but probably Modric for passing (even though Iniesta can be top notch with ball retention via passing with team-mates and occasionally pulls out a very good through ball or forward pass to be fair too). Anyway, thanks for the rep above then Carlito, and hopefully Estel and comme are fine with each other too. It's natural we'll all have our particular individual views and observations and preferences I suppose, and get annoyed about or object to different things, but in the end we probably don't see things hugely different to each other (even if we'd all have a slightly different list if we tried a top 10 dribblers effort on this thread for example). EDIT - Yeah, I wouldn't feel Kroos would really fit so well for a combined dribblers and passers list, even if he has the odd 'solo goal' where he's twisted and turned with some skill and composure before finishing I remember. In general he's not really a natural or top notch dribbler I think it's fair to say. Maybe it's easier to be closer as a passer than as a dribbler in some respects (I mean more players will be not so far away from the very best), but yeah Xavi made my passing only list and I wouldn't really be considering Iniesta for that one (but I think Xavi, although exceptional with turns and skills to evade players at times, was not really an exceptional dribbler overall that could break through the lines and/or progress past several players with a mazy solo run or something, and not really Zidane-esque with the ball manipulation or juggling kind of dribbling for example either).
I guess it is good that England won the first game, else this result would be difficult to overcome. Regarding Modric vs Iniesta on dribbling, I am really not so sure I would take one over the other. I think both are equally good. Agreed on the Kroos, Xavi being primarily passing type midfielders with not quite as much expertise as Modric, Iniesta in dribbling. But it’s your list at the end of the day, so no worries. Anyway, back to the video link you’d shared earlier, below are 5 really good passes (IMHO) that it was missing which should’ve really been added in. That’s not to say there weren’t others missing, but it should definitely have had these in there is what I feel: “Sharing here a few, rarely showcased, along-the-ground throughballs leading to assists for Zidane, with an emphasis on variety (thus one should understand that more examples of similar throughballs made by him can be found): 1) Wrong-footing the defence - 2) Using the outside of the boot - 3) Using the weaker foot - 4) Down the ground one-two - 5) Slicing through the entire defence - Note that the pitches are mostly sub-par (apart from possibly the last one), since none of these throughballs were made at the Bernabeau while the one at the Delle Alpi itself shows a wobbling ball. Also, note that the first one is in a friendly (though now considered a full international as per rsssf), but it is recommended by none other than Ronaldo Luiz in an interview (that's a bit of trivia to go along).”
Not trying to take the thread off topic further lol, but as a continuation of the discussion I guess it's ok to post - I'm sure it's just showing everything Estel had in mind so won't be a revelation to you Estel, but this seems a good passing compilation for Modric (of course in recent times they are more extensive with everything available in real time, so it's only copyright issues that might get in the way, but without having watched all the way through yet it does seem to highlight that he was indeed an excellent passer, and helps solidify the idea I'd give him the edge on that over Iniesta probably, and remind me he'd probably have more than an edge with outside of the boot passes anyway lol - Iniesta I think could be very good with literally combining a bit of dribbling with a quality pass, but my list wasn't just based on combining them together like that of course but more a general passing abilities + dribbling abilities together assessment): Luka Modrić - The Art of Passing - YouTube
Nice compilation and yeah those outside of the foot passes are what I was thinking of when I mentioned Modric being great at passing. That’s why I thought he would make a good addition to your list, considering his ability across both dribbling and passing.
This is the first time I’ve seen someone regard R9 as an efficient dribbler. A lot of the posts on YouTube and Reddit believe that he was really wasteful cuz he had a poor G+A ratio for an out and out striker. It just seemed that his dribbling didn’t lead to actual results.
I think there are a few things to consider: - His injury cut his original prime short (and he'd had a few fitness/injury issues before it finally did I think too) - The goals per game rate of the era he played in, and the particular leagues he played in (I'm linking this post as perhaps a good choice, but the whole thread is good to put that into context I think) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/g...he-best-players.2112404/page-12#post-39310472 - Still a higher number of fouls per match and less penalisation of harsh fouls compared to more recently when he played, even though efforts were being made to crack down on the fouls already (so his dribbles could be cut short more than they would be now I'd suggest) - The action after a dribble relates to a different capability than the dribble itself, so if his shots on target %, or goals scored % after dribbles is actually quite low it doesn't necessarily detract from the dribble itself (obviously he did score some notable 'solo goals' though anyway) Ronaldo Fenomeno - Inter Dribbling Skills & Goals - YouTube Ronaldo Phenomenon Barcelona 96/97 MADNESS best goals and skills ᴴᴰ - YouTube
Thanks for sharing this with me. If Ronaldo’s career stats are accurate, then that would give him a goal contribution ratio of 0.9, which would put him in 1st amongst forwards from the 90s and early 2000s era. Although I don’t recall many solo goals besides a few at Barcelona, he had plenty of runs but most of his goals seemed to be poached.
I think we need to stop using injury as an excuse as to why Ronaldo didn’t become a world class player and simply accept that his career was simply not meant to be. From his teenage days to early 20s, he was on track to break the all time goal scoring record. He mostly accomplished that by operating as a poacher, he would wait inside the penalty area and score tap ins, headers and the timely run goals off Figo & Stoichkov’s assists. When he joined Inter, he was asked to play as the number 10 behind the forwards Djourkaeff and Zamarano in which he needed to facilitate and create by being a dribbler. That’s when his stats declined, and he started to run into the injury problems which caused him to retire early. His body simply couldn’t handle the difficulty of playing Such an elusive style. Due to this, we can’t say that overcoming injury is the reason that makes Ronaldo a legend. I’d argue that if he was actually talented enough to carry his team, he wouldn’t have been injured so severely.
Y’know, I cant help but feel that Ronaldo made a mistake leaving Barca. Had he stayed, he could’ve played alongside Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Figo, Deco and Xavi during the pre Messi era. They could’ve conquered Europe had they all stayed!
It looks like a good idea on paper, but not really functional in real life. They would be exposed by a fast team who can burn them on the counter cuz their wide players have poor defensive abilities and there are no fullbacks to cover. Plus that midfield would get manhandled by the likes of Keane, Gerrard, Lampard and Vieira who are just physically superior. Getting back on topic, I can't comprehend why so many people have Ronaldo as a top 3 dribbler of all time. He failed miserably when asked to play as the CAM/SS for Inter because his body couldn't handle the intensity of dribbling. And that happened when he played in Serie A, I can't even imagine how badly he would've been destroyed had he gone to England where the players are much quicker and physically devastating.
That’s a fair argument, but one could also argue that even though he did get injured from dribbling, he left an impression amongst the greatest defenders that very few players could give. I think all the top defenders from the 90s-00s era (Desailly, Thuram, Cannavaro, Nesta, Maldini) stated that Ronaldo was the toughest attacker they faced but in terms of dribbling.