Argentina vs. Germany (World Cup 2006) [R]

Lucho was kind of invisible, imho. Ayala was the MOTM on the Argentinian side for me. He did not let any of these tall Germans get a ball, whether in the air or on the floor. A shame he missed his PK, but then I also feel it's not a defender job.

 

Sorry loco, totally have to disagree on Lucho. Cambiasso did better than he did, and I think Lucho should have been subbed out instead of Riquelme.

 

true, i agree lucho was invisible heard his name once. i thought that aimar should of replaced him or riquelme.i understand the cruz decision, but you're left with noone to really do any playmaking or really anything if they score.

 

I think that this was a game that neither team deserved to lose, though in my opinion Argentina could have won the game and would have won the game had this match been played on a neutral field. Unfortunately, there were several factors that crippled Argentina:
- The ref, though he did not do anything to directly affect the outcome of the game, was undoubtedly more on Germany's side. For example, the yellow card and foul on Sorin (who by the way, despite showing a lot of heart, had a pretty bad game) was a total BS call as the TV replays clearly showed. Also, the total foul statistics for the match showed 32 fouls against Argentina and 23 against Germany. This is a fairly wide margin, particularly if analize the fact that Argentina always fouled less than all of their opponents in all previous matches, and they by no means need to foul in order to turn a match in their favor, especially with the superior technical ability of most of their players. I know that some Argentine teams in the past have been prone to foul more than they need to, but that was not the case with the current squad. While Germany also fouled less than all of their opponents in all previous matches and held the lowest amount of cards (yelow and red) in the tournament, it is to be expected being that they are the home team in this world cup. Every foul that was "doubtful" always went in Germany's favor. Again, this did not directly affect the outcome of the game, but Germany clearly enjoyed this advantage. For those that say that the ref is actually a good one, please go to espn.com and check his ratings...he is barely a middle of the pack ref...and if I'm not mistaken he is the ref that disgracefully allowed Adriano's goal against Ghana, when he was blatantly in offside, more so than any other dubious goal that I have seen in this WC.
- Unluckily for Argentina, their starting goalkeeper went down with an injury. This proved to be lethal for them, because up to that point he was exerting a great performance in this WC. Leo Franco didn't save anything notorious that came his way, and was woeful in the penalties, despite the fact that they were well executed. Moreover, Abbondanzieri is well reputed as a PK goalkeeper, having saved Boca Jrs. on several ocassions in these type of instances
- Finally, and despite everything else, I think that Pekerman made some HORRIBLE substitutions. Overall, he is a good coach, but how the hell does he take out JR Riquelme and put in Cambiasso. Who was supposed to organize the team? If he took out JRR, then he should have definitely put in Aimar. I know that Argentina had temporarily lost possession, but this was mostly attributed to a change in attitude than the wrong personnel being on the pitch. Besides, even if Riquelme was being double marked and was not being very effective at the time, he is always a clear and present danger on dead ball situations (Three of Argentina's eleven goals came from JRR's deade bal executions). But what I really can't understand at all, is the fact that he took out Crespo and replaced him with CRUZ??? Well, to say the least the guy was a total non factor and it baffles me that he would leave Messi (or Aimar/Saviola for that matter) to rot on the bench. This was clearly a game in which he could have excelled, especially being that at that point the German defence was leaving open spaces that a player of his characteristics could certainly have expoited. Even leaving Crespo in would have been a far better choice than subbing him for a player of his same characteristics, only that Cruz is quite a few steps below his talent level or knack for opportunism. Of course, nobody can guarantee that Messi would have scored or that he would have created clear scoring chances, but the likelihood of that happening would have been much greater. Also, how can you retreat and pray to stay ahead on a 1-0 lead against a team like Germany playing in their turf? You know that if Germany doesn't score a goal of their own, the ref would probably do it for them...also, all of Argentina's best PK shooters were off the pitch with those senseless substitutions, namely Riquelme, Crespo, Aimar, and Messi. Good job, Pekerman...you threw it all away!

Last, but not least, I'll say that Germany is a worthy team, and I wish them good luck the rest of the way, but man...it really hurts to see a team with the quality of Argentina go away without showing all their cards...

Germany deserved to win on PKs, because their goalie was far superior to Argentina's and they just executed their penalties very well. Of course, football is not always fair and it is a shame that one of these two teams had to go home on a penalty shoot out...

 

I think you might have been watching the wrong game.

 

Thanks for the class act guys, very worthy fans.

On the incident after the game, Cuffre confused Mertesacker for Borrowski (how i don't know) whom he was angry with because of the penalty shoot out. Bierhoff did try to seperate them and then he started swining on him, then Tevez and co. got involved.

Anyone know what the federation will do about this aside from the red card?

I mean, it's a shame that it had to end like that.

 

Some of those players probably will get ban for CONMEBOL events and qualifying.

 

Pekerman made horrible substitutes and it cost us a game. why did he subbed Riquelme? Why Crespo? If he wanted to sub Riquelme then it should have been for either Aimar or Messi. Crespo was working his ass off and might be tired but then again why bring on Cruz? maybe Peker thought we need some tall guys to defend on corners, after all we were leading.

anyway, there is nothing to feel shame about. we played great tournament and we should be proud of what we achieved. i feel sorry for Crespo, Ayala, Pato, Riquelme(may be), Heinze(maybe), and some others because they never won WC.

Tevez was absolutly fantastic even though he was little selfish sometimes, Maxi played another good game and Ayala was outstanding for another match. Mascherano was very good. Messi got some experience and since the WC is going to be held in south africa we must win it with the likes of Tevez, Messi, Aguero, Gonzalez, Ustari, Gago, Mascherano, and many more. some of our players playing right now are around 25, so it's obvious some of them will get chance again specially Aimar.

anyway, i am sad we are out 10 days before. but Pekerman is a great coach and if somebody teach him to use right players and substitute right players , i will be the happiest guy to let him continue as our coach.

 

This is so depressing. I'm not a fan of Argentina per se, but of the style of play Argentina played and stood for this WC.

The better team, and in this case it is Argentina once you account for home advantage, should always press to win before extra time and penalty kicks. Otherwise, they just end up negating their advantage and settling for a coin toss. Inevitably, the weaker team finds the penalty kicks to be a reprieve, and the better team finds them scant consolation. The psychological battle is finished.

What should bother Argentina most about this loss is that they lost without giving all they had, that is, without putting Messi and possibly Aimar on the field and going for it. It would have been much better had they played all their cards and lost. What I like about the Germans is that, had they lost, and this is always the case with them, you know they would have gone out having given it their all. No regrets.

Another four years of depression!

 

I said on various occasion that this match up will be a though game and it turned out to be one. I also said it is a shame that both squad meet that early and I still have the same opinion on that matter. Hell, the game was full of tension throughout the whole game. It was worthy for a final!

Though entertaining goal box scenes were missing almost the whole game on both sides, and it turned out to be a tactical midfield battle, which no side could decide for its own. That's why the penalty lottery was necessary to decide a pretty even game. Personally I would have loved the game turn out to be an entertaining 4:3 after 90 minutes with a convincing winner - no matter which side would have won - but - imo a bit - unfortunately both defensive lines were pretty solid today and did allow almost nothing except both goals. So I really have to congratulate you and your side for your great effort though my side was more lucky today in the penalties!

Don't be too harsh on Pekerman cause the penalties are always a lottery and I don't think he was subbing out the wrong guys, but maybe he was subbing the wrong guys in. Though that's speculation. Nonetheless you have many young players in your squad - as mine has too - so the future still lies in front of you!

 

guys lets not go over the hill

the place to discuss that pic is here:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377005

we do not have to cover with dirt our forum........

muchachos no dejemos que ese tema cubiero bajo libertad de expresion y reportado por andy Mead nos tire el foro y las discusiones al suelo, la reaccion nos puede traer consecuencias....solo dejen su opinion y pensamiento EN LINK QUE LES DI ARRIVA para que sientan nuestra opinion...

los italianos ya nos dieron apoyo!


aguante argentina hoy y siempre..........

 

Pero esten alertas que muchos Alemanes se estan mandando la parte y por detras esto es lo que verdaderamente piensan.

SEPAN LA VERDAD al menos!

Ese link igual no funciona para mi.

 

Que pena, salir asi.

First, i think Germany played very well, and feel that if argentina were going to lose to anyone, losing to Germany at home with Kalifornia Klinsmann at the helm would be the most easily accepted elimination scenario. It still hurts quite a bit, particularly on the pks, where Argentina used to thrive.

I agree with the gallina about Lucho - it was very clear to me that he and Cambiasso shared the role of playmaker once JRR was removed. I thought Lucho, Mascherano and Ayala were the best players on the pitch. IMO, JRR and HC were properly removed from the game, particularly HC who was clearly exhausted. So in comes Cruz, who had a great chance at the end of regulation, buried his pk, and really did everything he could have done. If JRR is still in the game, he's ok and it's a good swap. But if you see JRR tiring and you know you are going to take him out (assuming he had entertained that possibilty when he subbed Crespo) why have a true center forward who is really only going to thrive on either dead ball situations or on the deft feeds from JRR? if JRR is coming out, why not bring in Messi to make his own space? Aimar was a posssibilty, but i always had a problem with his inclusion on the team due purely to the fact that he was coming off injury and was CLEARLY not the Pablito we all know when he is healthy. I would have even preferred Palacios to Cambiasso if JRR is out. I love Cambiasso, he is a fantastic player and it seemed clear to me that Argentina was once again dominatiung the center of the field with him in there. But if Pato is out, Franco is green with inexperience, why are you not trying to kill this off rather than play to hold the lead? I've only seen the "Catenaccio" approach work once for argentina, against los Brasileros hijos de ******** in '90. The german team is gaining confidence every imoment the game gets closer to pks, you have so much offensive talent waititng to get out there - i just think the pressure of the moment got to him ajnd he really didn't think his subs through nearly as well as he did against Mexico.

In all fairness, Pato's injury really hurt the team ultimately more than any move made or not made by Pekerman. A lo mejor Lux tenia que estar emn el equipo, eh?

any way, sorry for the rambling rant, estoy bastante triste que Albiceleste fue eliminado cuando habia tanta promesa de ser campepones

Buena suerta a los Tanos y a Portugal - y que alguien que ne sea Brasil lo gane este ano.

Dale Newell's

I think Pekerman should stay, he did a wonderful joib and would've learned quite a bit from this experience. I have a feeling he will reconsider unless the decision is one for health reasons.

What I do question though is trying to fix something that was not broken. Crespo and Saviola to start and Messi and Tevez to finish it off. It has worked the whole time, and should have been implemented again. Apache played very well and was a thorn to the Germans all day on the left, but he and Messi could've done some serious damage to a German right flank which dominated the game after the substitution was made for that moreno that plays on their team. Sorin had been carded, unfairly in my biased opinion, so the right side was being utilized frequently, and led to their goal actually.

 

I saw your replay there!

try this: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377231

 

Regarding the flag burning Germans, i think if you look closely you will see that these little punks are a combined 44 years old, if that. if it was in the middle of a square with a throng of folks, different story. The oldest kid there is mmaybe 16 years old. Man, i can't even think about a third of the regettable actions i took at that age.

Y si gana Italia el Martes, se pueden ir a la ******** que los pario, los boluditos eses.

 

Mas razon para hacerle fuerza a los tanos. Hijos de puta .

 

I think he seemed way more enchufado than before, and I thought he was doing well actually. meh

 

I think changing the starting lineup, which had been working so well in prior games, will be the eternal question mark. The choice of substitutions in the second half is also important, of course.

My comments on Pekerman:

Argentina is loaded with talent, and you'll still be loaded in four years. You need a coach who can get that talent onto the field.

Pekerman will live with today's loss for the rest of his life, and for better or worse he has only himself to blame. Yes, a key injury forced his hand, but his use of subs was poor.

You have to get Messi on the field. You have to. If you are not going to start Messi (ala Tevez for Saviola), you must get Messi in at the first opportunity. Dare I say that Cruz for Crespo will be Pekerman's 'epitah.'

And speaking of Saviola, I understand the impulse to get Tevez out there from the start. But Argentina was playing pretty nicely with Saviola starting and Tevez coming on later. If I want Tevez to start in the QF v. Germany, then I'm working him into the starting lineup earlier in the competition.

I still can't believe that Messi stayed on the bench - he could very well have been the difference in this one.

Then again, maybe not. We'll never know.

Pekerman's going to have the rest of his life to think about the decisions he made today. The starting lineup, the substitutions ...

 

Don't feel too bad, folks.

Argentina had a great tournament.

Then only lost to the hosting country, which has won 3 world cups and has been runners up 4 other times, and is playing exceptionally well.

And Argentina only lost on PKs. History has proven that PKs can easily go either way.

As a fan of the USA first, then Germany, I really liked Argentina, and if Germany had lost today, I wouldn't feel too bad about it, because they would have lost to damn fantastic team.

So all this complaining about Pekerman's subsitutions seems silly to me. I thought Pekerman was the best coach Argentina has had in a very long time.

 

I'm really sorry for Argentina and can feel with you in this situation! You have a great side and were the top favourite not by chance. You played very well until scoring the 1:0...but then things turned due to some reasons.

The game wasn't on the top level (we all expected) because

1) Ballack obviously was not really fit after his injury from the Sweden game, so the German midfield wasn't able to practise so much pressure this time; I'd say that in additional time Germany played only with 10 men...fortunately ARG couldn't take any advantage

2) Frings & Ballack concentrated too much on controlling Riquelme, so both German strikers didn't get enough support

3) some young players like Schweinsteiger & Lahm surprisingly seemed to be very nervous and lost many easy balls

4) both teams played a good pressing in midfield, neutralizing themselves very often

5) both defences performed solidly, so the strikers didn't get many scoring chances

6) both teams knew each other very well and didn't risk too much; Germany disappointed me before interval and started playing football only after conceding the 0:1


Although it was no great match, I think you agree that it was very tactical and exciting. I expected a close game and how we see, it couldn't have been closer. When it came to PK, I was pretty sure that we would win it as our players are mentally very strong & Jens Lehmann is a penalty killer!

Here my reasons why Germany won / Argentina lost the game:

1) Germany started to take control after the 0:1 lag (it was Argentina's 1st real opportunity), whereas the Albicelesti surprisingly stopped their expected & good looking short pass style, trying only to defend the lead. That's a big mistake when you play a fighting team like Germany!

2) Klinsmann's substitutions were decisive as Borowski & especially Odonkor created a lot of pressure

3) Pekerman's subs were decisive, too...as they helped Germany, I think. After Riquelme was out, Ballack & Frings played more offensively...what was better for Klose & Podolski. Thanksfully Lionel Messi didn't come in as replacement for Riquelme. Cruz was very poor.

4) the German defence played superbly (except of 1 blackout from Lahm) and proved to be better than many of us thought before

5) the home support


IMO the referee made one mistake (he should have given an indirect free kick for Argentina when Abbondanzieri was attacked by Klose in his 5m box), otherwise I didn't see any crucial decisions against a team (Maxi's diver was too obvious!).

That's my point of view. Any objections from your side?

It's a pity that only one of both teams could go through , but that's football. Argentina is a great team, but I'm also very proud of this young German side which never gave up and turned a game it normally should have lost. Our guys didn't play on their best level this time and seemed to be very nervous before interval (never saw so many easy ball losses) , but they showed a great moral and finally deserved to reach the semi finals (even if a victory in PK is always lucky)! I'm sorry for Pekerman who's a great manager...but IMO he made a lethal mistake today by trying only to defend the 1:0 lead. I'm also sorry for the Argentina fans who proved to be among the best at this WC. My compliments! I hope their disappointment will pass off as soon as possible...particularly when they recall the funny time they have had here in Germany.

I'm very sad about the ugly incidents immediately after the game and I'm sure that Oliver Bierhoff takes no responsibility cause he is known as a very smart, fair & polite guy! What I heard so far, the trouble was caused by an Argentinian player who got the red card later on. Heinze may understand a few German words (his father is German)...but don't think there was a reason for overreacting that way he did! Sorry guys, but that's definitely the wrong way!

Cheers


Btw: Diego Maradona came with a friend who had no ticket for the game (there were rumours about Fidel Castro...and after the guy was refused to enter the stadium, Diego got mad and decided to boycott the game, leaving the stadium even before the game had started.

 

Congratz to the Germans, much appreciated your thoughts and good sportsmanship.

This game could've gone either way.It was a battle and ended the way it did there was no other ending for a game like this.Argentina had 70.000 fans against them and handled it the pressure very well.Sucks really but thats the way it goes.

Hopefully Brazil doesn't win it once again and of course England either.

 

Argentina lost it's rudder in the midfield when Riquilme came out. Aimar should have gone in instead, and Messi for Crespo. That, in my opinion, would have caused the German defense some headaches...instead Argentina tried to protect a 1-0 lead, which has been disasterous in the past. This team is made to attack and control the ball on the ground. Once Riquilme was substituted, it almost seemed like we were lost for a while. Damn it to hell...at least Messi should have been allowed to make a mark.

 

or germany.