All time Brazil XI vs All time Argentina XI

Kind of a side note but Casemiro is pretty easily the best Brazilian defensive mid I've ever seen. I'm "only" 41 years old but he's miles ahead of Dunga and Mauro Silva.

Actually, I'd put in him in the top 3-4 I've ever seen. Alongside Redondo, Kante, Vieira, maybe Busquets (still not sure how I feel about him).

 

Only reason I would push back is that I don't really see Redondo or Vieira as DMs.

Having said that, I fully recognize that Casemiro in the 90s would be more of a B2B type player, while Redondo and Vieira are likely to be DMs in the 2020s.

 

I think I possibly agree with you on this actually (well maybe miles would be the sticking point, but I'd perceive him ahead of those two individually anyway quite probably, all-in-all). I did place Mauro Silva in that 'away game for Brazil' line-up in my post on this thread though, and maybe that was because I felt if they picked someone to be an outright anchor DM he'd be a good fit (and don't get me wrong he was decent on the ball too) - in the same way that Kante would possibly be a better outright DM (despite being smaller of course) than Vieira but I'd certainly feel Vieira was the better all-round midfield player.

EDIT - When I said agree I meant just about Casemiro in relation to Mauro Silva and Dunga, I should clarify. I feel he's a bit more complete and accomplished as an all-round midfielder than either. He could be an option as the DM in an all-time Brazil I guess anyway - almost like a 'cautious man's Clodoaldo alternative' maybe lol (trading a bit of flair for a bit of security!): it's gonna be hard to try to directly compare him to Zito for example though I suppose, given the gap between their playing careers.

I wasn't commenting about your list of DM/CMs as such (like poetgooner says it's maybe hard to distinguish between DMs and DM/CMs definitively but I guess you're factoring in players from outright holding players to box to box players that got forwards quite a bit). For a start, being just slightly older probably brings a few more players into it (like Rijkaard, Matthaus, possibly Robson and Lerby too for example - maybe Tigana is a stretch, perhaps not so much on fitting the category as on having seen enough and known him well enough in real time - I knew who he was but viewed him retrospectively moreso albeit that applies to some extent to the others too), before even considering any other players you saw live yourself. I think I'd be in the same ballpark, at least if starting from the same start date based on your age rather than mine, anyway though on that.

2nd EDIT - Maybe you were aiming for a list of outright DM's rather than including box to box players: Redondo did often have a deep starting position, and Vieira could be considered one of two DMs albeit somewhat box to box in teams he played in. Like poetgooner said it's hard to be definitive about it I think.

 

Agreed, it's so hard to distinguish between a box to box and a true holding mid that I didn't really distinguish between the two in this list. Mostly because a lot of players had both roles through their careers.

There are some that have been strict holding/defensive mids, like Gattuso, Keane, and Mascherano. But there are lots of teams that don't play with a player like this at all but rather with two box to box mids.

There's too much variation so I just lumped all central, non-attacking mids together.

Man, this is tough

1) Redondo
2) Vieira
3) Casemiro
4) Kante

And I wasn't kidding when I said I don't know where to put Busquets. He could go anywhere from #2 to #5. Considering he was a starter and a key figure in arguably the greatest club team in history and one of the most dominant national teams in history, he'd be #2.

But his lack of physicality and toughness makes me wonder if he'd thrive in a system other than Spain/Barcelona's, so I'm tempted to put him #5.

What about you?

 

South America's best defensive midfielder of all time was Dunga.

Not only dunga played in three world cups at a high level (two in the competition's ideal team), he still holds tackles records in competition history going back to 1966. His tackle record stands for over 50 years and 15 World Cups!

Furthermore, Dunga had the long ball with the outside of the foot (three toe/trivela). That Casemiro, Zito or Redondo doesn't have. It's the class pass, who has it is modric, pirlo, pogba and some others. Dunga had too.

Dunga just doesn't have such a long career in clubs because there was a limit on foreigners at the time. And European clubs preferred to invest in foreign strikers.

 

The thing is I watched that 1994 World Cup (anyone reading the forum probably knows by now lol), and didn't really have him in contention for best XI (even behind players like Thern, Jonk etc - ok it can be said I was young, plus that maybe I was less inclined to appreciate DMs than CMs or still am, but I did have Mauro Silva closer to contention myself I think, and maybe reviewing the footage a bit still think similarly, because Dunga, especially at that stage of his career as opposed to earlier I think, was a bit slow in his movements and sometimes, especially later in the tournament maybe, his first touches could be a bit off for example and he wasn't very fluid on the ball, albeit often good with his medium range passes indeed).

I don't really believe in only looking at stats, though it's true they are factual and those tackle and passing stats (albeit only with 1.4 chances created a match, so a limited effect in actually setting up the key passes, not to say non-existent though and he did help Romario a bit with some through balls to him through the centre for sure) are definitely notable: on the other side though, these are part of his stats set from that World Cup too:
Succ. dribbles 0.6 (57%)
Total duels won 10.4 (53%)
Ground duels won 10.0 (55%)
Aerial duels won 0.4 (33%)
Possession lost 19.0
Dribbled past per game3.9

So Redondo beat him on those:
Succ. dribbles 5.5 (61%)
Total duels won 14.0 (61%)
Ground duels won 13.3 (60%)
Aerial duels won 0.8 (100%)
Possession lost 11.3
Dribbled past per game1.8

Mauro Silva too (only percentage wise with the duels though, not in pure numbers)
Succ. dribbles 1.7 (86%)
Total duels won 7.1 (63%)
Ground duels won 6.9 (64%)
Aerial duels won 0.3 (40%)
Possession lost 9.3
Dribbled past per game1.3

Jonk was slightly better on key passes, and with less possession losses too for example (and Thern too, even a bit moreso on the key passes, and he did get double the number of actual assists), so maybe the final calculated Sofascore rating can be debatable and relies on rewarding the tackles and volume of passes especially well, and in some areas related to defensive midfield attributes he does find himself behind others too, so it's not a slam dunk in his favour as it were (even using only stats rather than viewing games - his ratings from magazines/newspapers etc being quite good to be fair, but a bit less so on average than the Sofascore/Opta data might suggest probably, and with some variability between sources and from game to game in general, albeit on average he's more prominently featuring than in my own assessment it's fair to say, so it's reasonable to show that given what I said at the start of this reply)
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...-1994-world-cup.2033907/page-10#post-40600263

 

Comparing Zito in 1962 (and in 1958 - I saw the games vs Sweden and France in full), I think he was more agile, and more adept in possession (he can also use the outside of the boot to pass this video shows actually; I'm not making a judgement that he was better or even as good necessarily as Dunga with that though - Dunga played a nicely disguised one too to Jorginho before the cross to Romario for the semi-final goal I think didn't he, or to Jorginho before his cross to Marcio Santos to score earlier in the tournament - I can't think which it was right now off the top of my head)
Zito vs Czechoslovakia 1962 - YouTube

This was Jonas Thern just before the 1994 World Cup, displaying some attributes that I'm saying Dunga wasn't so good at too (and receiving a good 7 out of 10 grade from Guerin Sportivo I think, or Gazzetta dello Sport, as shown by Vegan10 on his Serie A ratings thread)
Jonas Thern ● Skills ● Foggia 0:1 Napoli ● Serie A 1993-94 - YouTube

EDIT - On the same channel, another 'defensive midfielder' in terms of primary position/role in the team, albeit not completely and definitely with box to box and playmaking contributions, Vladimir Jugovic, also displaying the kinds of agility and fluid inter-passing that Dunga wasn't so good at (maybe it can be said it's not actually important for a true defensive midfielder, to some extent, but surely it's a nice bonus and yeah I'd say Zito for example, or Ardiles as a clear Argentinian example, were better equipped than Dunga was, even when he was younger at Fiorentina I guess albeit by less of a margin probably than comparing to him in 1994)
Vladimir Jugovic ● Skills ● Crvena Zvezda 3:1 Apollon Limassol ● Champions League 1991-92 - YouTube


So yeah, I'm just saying that maybe on the stats at first glance it could be suggested Dunga was almost like Mauro Silva combined with Didi (not that anyone has said that of course), but for sure he didn't (especially by 1994) have Didi's mastery with the ball or the best of his chance creating passing capabilities, and on the defensive side he wasn't completely equivalent to Mauro Silva either.

 

Dunga v Italia in 1994 was a work of art, PDG1978

The passing accuracy, long balls, perfect tackles:



Four years later, against Morocco. Always looking for the ball between the two defenders and starting the moves with class, long, precise passes, activating the two full backs (by the way, one of his performances with the lowest sofascore's ratings):



Much more technical than Zito or Casemiro, who were also great defensive midfielders. What a gifter passer Dunga was. And besides, he has the all-time record for tackles.

Of course Dunga also had his weaknesses, he was short for the position, for example. But what a player he was. Not like Didi. But with the style of Gerson (1970), Xabi Alonso or Pirlo. Worse than Pirlo for sure. But of the other two, I don't know. Underrated.

The best defensive midfield in south america

 

Now I saw that Dunga is 1.76 (5′9″). I've always had the image of a smaller player.

Anyway, you can say that he was a little slow, agree. Although that wasn't an obstacle for Dunga to get so many tackles. He could use his left foot more too. Still a rare player in south america

Amazing heat map in 94

 

Dunga as all time best defensive midfield doesnt make any sense
Dunga was not top player and do not make the difference playing by santos corinthians vasco internacional stuttgart Fiorentina and Japão j league
Falcao , clodoaldo , Andrade, Dudu, Carlos Alberto pintinho , Batista, Paulo Isidoro, Osvaldo ardilles to name few was technically superior to dunga

 

I follow the dunga beggining as a player since 1983 in pan american games (brazil did final with uruguay and lost the match) and the youth world championship in mexico 1983
He was a good playerbut he not as good as the names i put here
I read an article from tim vickery in the 2000s
In this article tim compared the influence of brazilian football in argentina
heres the article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/team_pages/argentina/newsid_2003000/2003885.stm

Good comparison between toninho cerezo and veron(the same style of play football - technically and physically they are similary)
Theres another comparison (not made by tim) but here in brazil we used to say (the old guys like me) Redondo style is similary to Falcão Style..Watch these players Cerezo-Veron and Redondo-Falcao and youll find similary things
Veron and Falcao used to make more goals than Redondo and Cerezo

Ill take the chance about this article from tim and put below some curiosity about this theme(brazilian influence in Argentina football)
Maradona grow watching rivellino in Brazil 1970 and in Fluminense (maquina) and in brazil we have a famous interview when maradona says rivellino was your biggest influence . He wish to be rebel, skillfull and elegant as rivellino



Heres the video above
He told " i grow up in argentina admiring a brazilian called rivellino. To me he was better than Pele
Pele was great(a phenomenum) but between pele and rivellino id go with rivellino
- The man asks " Why rivellino?"
- Maradona says - for the ellegance, because he represent everything i wsnted to be as football player. Because he was good(player), rebel, bad when necessary and for your left foot"


When sorin goes play for cruzeiro in Brazil he told a lot of times (a lot of youtube videos he declare ) he want to go to brazil inspired by brazilian left sides as serginho (sao paulo and milan )


Ill return your question
I saw the 2 in the beggining - Redondo and Dunga
I prefer Redondo .Your style i like a lot

 

How did Dunga end up in three World Cups and two World Cup teams?

Dunga suffered from the limits of being a foreigner in his time. He was bought by Fiorentina, but as there were limits on foreigners, Fiorentina loaned him to Vasco and Pisa. Then he returned to Fiorentina, and was one of the main players of the uefa cup finalist team in 1990. There was a lot of talk of him going with Baggio to Juventus in 1990. But he stayed and he became number 10 on the Fiorentina. If the world wasn't so closed, he would be a dm in a big European club. Then he went to Stuttgart at the age of 30. It's a great club career considering the position and time he played.

Do you know that we are talking about a defensive midfield in an era with a limit of three foreigners? The world of football was very different back then

Falcao is another story. None of the others have a club career superior to Dunga's in clubs. Even less in national team. And none of the others was a passer like Dunga. You just threw names. They don't have the outside foot pass like dunga

 

I think overall we are a little bit in the agree to disagree zone mate (I guess since I watched those games live you wouldn't expect me to change every viewpoint after seeing them, but nevertheless good to post them and give your observations and remind me of his actions in them): that's ok for me and I hope you too (I'm not wanting to talk down a player you admire of a favourite of yours and disappoint or annoy you of course!).

Certainly vs Italy (and not only vs Italy in that World Cup) he was making some good, quickly played, line-breaking passes (going between the midfield and defence - actually he tried some to by-pass the defence too of course and those didn't quite arrive at their target, so he was more successful with the passes to by-pass midfielders rather than to by-pass defenders it's fair to say - the ones to by-pass midfielders and put Romario and others in promising positions are still useful of course though and potentially creating danger for Italy). And his tackling was efficient (successful, and clean) - he was good I think when he could advance towards a player with the ball and pick his moment to go and get the ball, but I think it can be a bit different when a player has a run on him and can completely see where Dunga is - the relatively high number of times per game he was dribbled past show that I suppose.

His passing can certainly be said to be reliably good in the medium to long range I think anyway yeah - he has a solid technique and a little bit of finesse to measure where the ball will land too. Those are interesting comparisons, and yeah I'm sure if I was asked yesterday who was better in passing between him and Xabi Alonso my instinct would have been to say Xabi Alonso for sure, but while I don't say otherwise now, I'd acknowledge it wouldn't be a 'night and day' comparison between them and can see a little bit how they could be compared in attributes too to be fair (Alonso I think was probably a bit better in possession in general and with an especially good range of passing - distance and variety of passes I'd say, and could certainly get some very good through balls played into the danger zone, probably moreso than Dunga I think). Maybe I see Dunga as half-way between him and someone like David Batty (an English midfielder who was not very mobile and didn't offer much in fluidity or progressive midfield play towards the opposition box, but ok in his basic distribution and capable as a tackler - I think Dunga was a class above in passing and also a cleaner tackler though than him...but although I wouldn't rate Batty as right up there among midfielders of the English league, some media sources did have him among the top rated players in some seasons).

I guess if the topic is a place in a hypothetical all-time Brazil team (to play other All-Time national XIs in theory) then there is a question also about which role Dunga would be a candidate for - the main DM, or more a secondary DM/playmaker. I guess the most likely possibility would be the one Isaias mentioned, in a similar kind of centre midfield set-up to the one he played in 1994 and 1998 (where yes he did play some good balls out to the full-backs), but perhaps alongside a Casemiro who might just give a bit more forward impetus himself. But then, as discussed, it means leaving out Didi, Falcao and suchlike, maybe even finding it hard to accommodate including Zico, and going with a 'leave it to the forwards to create things in the final third alone' kind of strategy in the main. He could possibly be placed as the solo DM (maybe vaguely in a similar way to how David Phillips played an anchor role at Nottingham Forest, not that very many of you will be familiar with him...but I mean basically the sole midfielder who stays behind the others, and passes the ball to a player further forward as efficiently as possible, with maybe an occasional long range shot on goal too), but especially vs all-time national teams from other top nations maybe that would be playing an outright DM but not one who would be well equipped to deal with counter attacks and suchlike very well when playing in a line of 1 DM rather than 2.

 

In terms of 'more technical than Zito and Casemiro', it's possibly that I both agree and disagree, because just in terms of passing the ball I could be inclined towards moderate agreement I guess, but in overall technical manipulation of the ball and fluent midfield play I would be in clear disagreement about that I think.

 

"None of the others have a club career superior to Dunga's in clubs"

Dunga plays for internacional - wins 2 regional championships and hes not the main name of the team. The main name of that team was Geraldao and Ruben paz
Dunga plays for Corinthians and he lost the championship in 1984 and have a bad season in the team as player . The Santos midfield in 1984 destroy him in that match
Dunga plays for Santos in 1986 and wins nothing
Dunga plays in Vasco 1987 and wins the regional chempionship . Do you know what happened to him? BENCH. Hes not in the most significant matches from vasco in that championship(the vasco coach? Sebastiao Lazzaroni. The creator of "Dunga ERA" with brazilian press)

I only will talk Falcao - Inter player as Dunga
The biggest name all tiime of internacional
One of the biggest names of Roma(all time)
Champion in Roma and Internacional
He will win the golden boot in 1982 or 1983 BUT the trophy at that time was not open to south americans
He was top player in 1982 without win a world cup and remembered till today
Falcao belongs to all time team both teams - roma and internacional
Falcao plays all important matches in both clubs

Dunga not all time name in Stuttgart, Fiorentina(the only braziian all time in fiorentina is julinho botelho), Internacional ,Vasco, Santos , Corinthians etc
All these club fans NEVER put Dunga as all time name club and the biggest part do not remember him as a great club name (for example carpegianni is bigger in internacional than dunga. Fernandao is bigger in internacional than dunga)
Do u really believe if Stuttgart or Fiorentina was 40 yrs without a trophy dunga was the name to make these teams champion????
Falcao ALONE make roma champion after 40 yrs and almost give a UCL to the club

 

i put golden boot in my last post but the correct is golden ball

 

I don't think one can compare Dunga and Falcao. Falcao wasn't a DM. Dunga was, and a DM is not supposed to carry his team. I think you are selling Dunga short. Dunga was a fiesty character. He could tackle, chase, make fantastic passes, and most importantly, was a great leader. He wasn't gifted on the ball, and because of that, in an all-time Brazil XI that will be packed with players performing silky skills, he will not be chosen (as he will be out of place). Cerezo, Clodoaldo types should be preferred. Nevertheless, Dunga was an excellent player for his position, a Brazilian all-timer in this regard.

 

During Maradona's time, Brazil kept him quiet rather easily in most matches. Messi's performance against Brazil is also nothing much to write about. He has won a few friendlies (one against a Brazil Olympic team) but lost almost all competitive games (except the last Copa America kung fu battle in the final). If during their respective times Brazil could keep these two quiet, why can't an all-time Brazil do that?

 

im not comparing positions in the field or functions the players done in the field. Doesnt matter if both plays as goalkeeper , left back or midfielder
im comparing carrer
im comparing falcao and dunga carrers because a kid 22 yrs old(24 today) put this comment below

"None of the others have a club career superior to Dunga's in clubs"

its doesnt make any sense
These youtube generation dont have idea what they talking about

 

a lot of brazilian players had that kind of pass( rosca, trivela)
your declaration again doesnt make any sense
Sorry, because you do not have the opportunity to see mario sergio pontes de paiva in their prime
if you watched mario sergio you never wrote brazilian players doesnt have that "rosca - trivela" pass - only dunga
If mario sergio will be a problem i can put some numbers 5 or 8 from brasil with that kind of pass

 

Falcao is recognized till these days worldwide
He works in santos fc today (i live in santos) and he was recepted by serginho(brazil 1982) and clodoaldo(brazil 1970). . He is a football manager and he coordinate the young players work in the club




Dunga have a lot of rejection in brazil . As player and as coach