Historic World Wide Balon d'Or 23 player short lists

It's understandable you have watched more of him, just like I have more affinity for my own country naturally.

The Sweden match was the last qualification match in the group and the first place was already secure. Sweden is traditionally a difficult opponent (unlike, say, Brazil) and what you forget is RVP had still an assist in the game.

'Complaining' about scoring against San Marino and Hungary diminishes in relevance when Tevez only scored against Albania. You omit that.

6 goals and 3 assists (no penalties) is to me vastly better than 1 goal against Albania.

+ league form (more productive, also without penalties), better technical skills and vision (as you say), better resume in Europe (or to say it better: the virtual absence of it for Tevez while RVP at least scored a good goal against Barcelona in the KO phase).

Probably my fault. It's a minor thing but I returned to it because I just can't see it.

I agree Kompany was for a short while maybe the best defender in the league.

N.B. again, don't forget that Holland was between 1970 and 2014 third in the all-time Elo rating, with only Germany having more tournament quarter finals and semi finals (of European countries, at the very least). That's a fact.

 

Here a better one

http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/name/67/post/2090534/headline

 

Yes, I can't deny at all that we have a problem of perspective (including mine).

It would be interesting to read more opinions about it. I suppose I could change some elections according to the most agreed perspective.

Actually, I deliberately omit it because I'm not counting friendly matches in my opinion (that's the reason because I didn't take into account to van Persie against Brazil, Uruguay and Switzerland that year).

My point was that from the international stage there's a difference in van Persie's favor, but I couldn't point it out as a very considerable one due to the few matches and the average level of the clashes (apart from Sweden) considering the entire season (although I understand that you present it as one of many other advantages).

Do you think I'm not giving the right weight to the Dutch players?

I don't think that the agreement is direct, that is, the results of the national teams with the number of the best players by season (especially considering that here is rated both club level and international level). In any case, from 1995 to 2011 (the 17 seasons that I've done since the last done by Tom) these are all the provenances of the selections:

01. Brazil - 58
02. Italy - 43
03. Spain - 42
04. France - 39
05. England - 35
06. Argentina - 31
07. Germany - 27
08. Netherlands - 25
09. Portugal - 19
10. Sweden - 6
10. Ukraine - 6
12. Czech Republic - 5
12. Uruguay - 5
14. Cameroon - 4
14. Chile - 4
14. Croatia - 4
14. Serbia - 4
14. Yugoslavia - 4
19. Finland - 3
19. Ireland - 3
19. Wales - 3
22. Bulgaria - 2
22. Denmark - 2
22. Ghana - 2
22. Ivory Coast - 2
22. Liberia - 2
22. Russia - 2
22. Turkey - 2
29. Bosnia and Herzegovina - 1
29. Colombia - 1
29. Mali - 1
29. Paraguay - 1
29. Romania - 1
29. Togo - 1
29. Trinidad and Tobago - 1

Dutch appearances:

- (4) Edgar Davids: 1998, 2000, 2003, 2004
- (4) Ruud van Nistelrooy: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007
- (3) Edwin van der Sar: 2008, 2009, 2011
- (2) Dennis Bergkamp: 1997, 1998
- (2) Danny Blind: 1995, 1996
- (2) Roy Makaay: 2003, 2005
- (2) Clarence Seedorf: 1997, 2007
- (1) Frank de Boer: 1995
- (1) Ruud Gullit: 1996
- (1) Frank Rijkaard: 1995
- (1) Arjen Robben: 2010
- (1) Wesley Sneijder: 2010
- (1) Jaap Stam: 1999

Any notable absence?

 

Now they are not counted. They were counted and considered by you here (for post-1995, to be clear):

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/hi...yer-short-lists.2027972/page-42#post-36220168
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/hi...yer-short-lists.2027972/page-42#post-36216060
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/hi...yer-short-lists.2027972/page-34#post-35351769

Among other places and other discussions (with other users).

Okay, 11 international games is not a huge amount but Tevez had internationally (for club and country) a production that was literally 366% lower. Can't make it more telling.

Indeed, it is one of other advantages, including production (without pens) in the league as well (in my view).

Not rarely you use perceived technical expertise as an important if not decisive argument.

Given time restraints I'm not going to discuss all specific cases and the more I think about it Vincent Kompany merits a lawyer for this season, lol.

Let me say though that the national team perseverance doesn't stand alone. In this time period there were Dutch players starting in the Champions League final in 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011.

Sure, the best teams and players don't always reach the final (some have argued there was a feeling the club and international game had regressed between 2000 and 2005) - and also for Holland itself their best players aren't necessarily the best winners - but it is an indication. Not many (European) countries have done better.

 

So it seems previously you did mention friendlies as a consideration... Also on the 'forosperu' forum...

I would say it is a big mistake to include Scholes more often than Seedorf. One of the many evidences for a systematic neglect (as pretty much admitted by you above).

Is there any other central starting player with three or more Champions Leagues with so few inclusions?

Clearly a systematic tendency. By the entire media apparatus.

I would say, go have a look at my thread. I leave it there.

 

Yes, that's true. After this inactive time I thought about modifying this of the friendly matches due to the tendency to have very little intensity recently. I mean, I understand that they were included before because in previous eras they seemed to have an acceptable competitiveness, but I've the impression that now, more than ever, they are more an exhibition or proof.

In any case, you're right in that it seems arbitrary to suddenly suppress them, why just this year and not one before or after? I'll revise it, but in this case (about the comparison between van Persie and Tévez) it seems to me that the differences don't go on much longer, don't you think so?

I just reviewed highlights. Good moves against Brazil anyway:

​

Yes, how I perceive technical quality seems me important, but I must say that although in this aspect I see the difference in favor of van Persie, it's not that I see a great difference, but it seems to me that Tévez displays very good performances from that point of view:

​

I'd describe him as less aesthetic, but more like a powerful workhorse.

By the way, Goal.com chose Tévez as the 11th best player of the season (Goal.com 50: Carlos Tevez (11)) and didn't include van Persie in the first 50 (probably due to his time out of service).

Check this mate:

Dutch appearances in UEFA Champions League finals (1995-2011):

(*) In red the players that I included in the final lists.
(*) In italics those that were included, but didn't play the final.

1995

Edwin van der Sar (Ajax)
Michael Reiziger (Ajax)
Danny Blind (Ajax)
Frank Rijkaard (Ajax)
Frank de Boer (Ajax)
Clarence Seedorf (Ajax)
Edgar Davids (Ajax)
Ronald de Boer (Ajax)
Marc Overmars (Ajax)
Patrick Kluivert (Ajax)

1996

Edwin van der Sar (Ajax)
Soony Silooy (Ajax)
Danny Blind (Ajax)
Frank de Boer (Ajax)
Winston Bogarde (Ajax)
Ronald de Boer (Ajax)
Edgar Davids (Ajax)
Kiki Musampa (Ajax)
Arnold Scholten (Ajax)
Patrick Kluivert (Ajax)
Nordin Wooter (Ajax)
Ruud Gullit (Chelsea)

1997

Dennis Bergkamp (Arsenal)
Clarence Seedorf (Real Madrid)

1998

Edgar Davids (Juventus)
Clarence Seedorf (Real Madrid)
Dennis Bergkamp (Arsenal)

1999

Jaap Stam (Manchester United)

2000

Edgar Davids (Juventus)

2001

-

2002

Ruud van Nistelrooy (Manchester United)

2003

Edgar Davids (Juventus)
Clarence Seedorf (AC Milan)
Roy Makaay (Deportivo La Coruña)
Ruud van Nistelrooy (Manchester United)

2004

Edgar Davids (Barcelona)
Ruud van Nistelrooy (Manchester United)

2005

Jaap Stam (AC Milan)
Clarence Seedorf (AC Milan)
Roy Makaay (Bayern Munich)

2006

Giovanni van Bronckhorst (Barcelona)
Mark van Bommel (Barcelona)

2007

Clarence Seedorf (AC Milan)
Boudewijn Zenden (Liverpool)
Dirk Kuyt (Liverpool)
Ruud van Nistelrooy (Real Madrid)

2008

Edwin van der Sar (Manchester United)

2009

Edwin van der Sar (Manchester United)

2010

Mark van Bommel (Bayern Munich)
Arjen Robben (Bayern Munich)
Wesley Sneijder (Inter Milan)

2011

Ibrahim Afellay (Barcelona)
Edwin van der Sar (Manchester United)

 

Well, finally there was no much difference:

- (2) Clarence Seedorf: 1997, 2007
- (3) Paul Scholes: 1999, 2003, 2007

Both were in the radius of honorable mentions several times.

I find it difficult to identify an anomalous tendency for it, the explanation that I think is sensible that Seedorf almost always stayed at an elite level, but just only sometimes he exploded a little more to be an irrefutable option.

 

So why is it nowhere mentioned in the methodology? Why is only now this rabbit suddenly pulled out of the hat? In the previous post you pretended you never considered friendlies, with no mention or hint of the changes in methodology. By other posters you have been called out for these type of fabrications previously (e.g. claiming to have watched many full games of Junior in 1985, watched multiple league games of Pele in 1969).

Indeed, what exactly changed between 2009 and 2011 that it became irrelevant? There are many other dates to pick as a sensible end date, but nothing tangible here.

Ultimately though, it still means a difference of 6 goals and 3 assists in competitive matches vs 0 goals and 0 assists for Tevez. That means 0 goals in 11 games for Tevez for club and country in an international setting.

Everything is reduced to a "small difference" - even 6 goals and 3 assists vs 1 goal is reduced to a 'small difference' - but add all those small differences up (technical quality, vision, league production, similar WhoScored rating, better in Europe, better for national team) and it becomes more apparent.

Of course they are inclined to do. For the same reasons why Marca included in 2017 eight Mexicans in their top 100. As discussed, Tevez played only 12 more games.

Let's face it: goal.com survives by the grace of readership and the advertisers. Yourself, who as native Spanish speaker watches and follows Argentine football and footballers closely but not Holland (by your own comment), are one of those many readers.

50% more inclusions is a big difference, in particular when one of those guys never received any vote for the Ballon d'Or, nor was he nominated for four different teams. It is the double handicap in full glory.

This is all relative and your perception (here is mine - of course you did not read). Ultimately he has more ESM team of the month inclusions than a Redondo or Pirlo so what are you babbling. Again, a double handicap.

There is only one integral player with more than two Champions Leagues with so few inclusions and he's Dutch.

There is only one team captain who reached the CL final and World Cup final in the same season, without being in the top 100 names for the year. Again, he's Dutch.

All of that smells like a systematic tendency, one fed by not caring to pay attention (by your own admission).

One sees it again and again. The Eredivisie gets propped up when the topic shifts to Romario and Suarez. The temptation to include Romario for his PSV years is there, while MvB at Ajax is all too happily ignored.

Or the discrepancies in how Cruijff played for a super team while Maradona played for poor Napoli. But guess what? His Ajax helpers did not receive the same international accolades as a Careca did. Does not compute. And it is this that is the saddest part: the ignorance and refusal to rate is not followed up logically and in a consequential sense - not when it might have a positive implication for another Dutch player. It has all no consequential implications, a logical follow through, certainly not among your type of circles.

Rather, it is a whole web of mutually incompatible dominant perceptions.

 

There are several points that I'd have to mention. The most important:

I'm not sure why you think I pretended the methodology was different before. I've read my answer again and I think it's clear and literal that I referred only to the methodology of the last list (2011), without sliding that there had been no change with respect to previous lists. At that point I believe that you've read/translated wrongly or there is an error in my English that I don't perceive.

Then, about the fabrications (I understand that you mean those you consider lies), I think that here we would mix topics that would take me away from this point, which is what interests me right now. I don't know with certainty what themes you're referring to, but I've certainly watched many matches of Júnior playing for Torino in Serie A 1984-85. If I haven't responded properly before, please, mention it again in the corresponding thread to do it when I can. It's not essencial for me that everybody believe me or not faced with facts I can't prove, just tell, but I do prefer to answer any question knowing that I don't lie here (I don't see the way that it would benefit me when what I want is to learn and be more precise).

Also, I mentioned earlier that I didn't have a reason to change that detail of the methodology now, I only thought about it after several weeks of not working on this topic as something sensible. Now I think it's a mistake because it's an arbitrary change and for that reason I mentioned that I'd continue to take into account all friendly international matches.

As for the difference of goals and assists, we go in parts. First we determine that I've written down that difference and I give the advantage to van Persie. My point is how much difference it makes in the comparison in general and in that context is that I think not enough to change them (supplementing the low activity of the Dutchman in the first semester at club level) due these numbers rise before rivals of little competitiveness and they don't correspond to specific and important matches, apart from the level that I can subjectively perceive of both beyond the numbers.

 

Clarifying these differences, in my opinion:

Technical skills/vision: van Persie, for not much. Tévez also showed a very good precision and resolution, good quality for movements and interaction. Better vision of the Dutch, but I think Tévez gave a better workrate.

League production: Both hauled their clubs on the attack front, both talismanic. It seems me incredible that van Persie had similar numbers that Tévez in the league at the end with less activity in the first semester (what is meant by more matches played in the second semester).

WhoScored ratings: For league: Tévez: 7.59, van Persie: 7.56. Tévez in 30 appearances, van Persie in 16, what I think gives Tévez extra points for regularity. About his contribution in the scoring quota Tévez scored 20/58 teams for his team (34%) and van Persie 18/72 (25%). DBS Calcio rated Tévez (4th) with 6.745 and van Persie with 6.583 (14th).

Better in Europe: Advantage for van Persie, but he could only play 3 games in the UEFA Champions League and was sent off in the last against Barcelona.

Better for national team: Again, for me a slightly advantage for the reason explained before.

 

Trying to be open minded, what are you referring about is possible, however, I have nothing very concrete to say that's true (actually, the same publication elected Wesley Sneijder as #1 over Lionel Messi for the previous season, what I think didn't make any sense).

Tévez was also elected in the PFA Team of the Year, not van Persie (who was elected the best player for the next season).

 

First of all: the 'workrate' is very true, but is usually by you not a criteria that gets a high priority. Hence Zidane your #1 for 2002 while 'workrate' Ballack with his numbers is not on the podium, and I think there are several more of those examples.

Second: in the years RVP was a forward rather than striker he had a rate of through-balls twice as high as Tevez in his forward guise.

Third: Tevez has a higher rate of poor touches (30% higher) and loss of possession (38% higher) throughout the years at the top.

Nevermind, this category is one of the "small advantages".

Tevez has factually fewer non-penalty goals and fewer assists in the league. I don't make it up. Again, a small advantage. True, Tevez played 31 games instead of 25 games in the league.

See also this, the non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-football-players-of-all-time.2011432/page-51#post-35882756

You can check for yourself that this is correct.

I think this gets messed up a bit. Manchester City did not score 58 goals but 60 goals.

It has to be related to the team goals scored when the players were on the pitch, and the assists need to be factored in.

Van Persie did not play 16 nor did he start 16, but the substitute appearances press down his WhoScored rating. That is right.

As you know the sending off was controversial and it is still remembered abroad until this day. Tevez would win a 'thug contest' handsomely.

Once again, no matter how it is turned, Tevez has only one international goal for club and country. And if you leave out friendlies it is 0 goal and 1 assist in 11. Compared to 8 goals and 3 assists in 9 competitive games for RVP.

By the way: in CL knock-out games Tevez has 7 goals in 17 career games. Or 4 goals in 12 starts. Admittedly, that is arguably a better rate than for example Ibrahimovic or Aguero can show. RVP is on 8 goals in 13 starts, for arguably worse teams.

 

If we refer to 2 and 3 numerically the difference of 1 inclusion is quite small in this comparison, especially taking into account that in a single list an inclusion and an exclusion could have minimal subjective differences in my opinion.

I also think that the idea of the Ballon d'Or, for some reason, underestimated or just forgot Paul Scholes, is also quite popular.

 

Well it is not the only point I made on this subject and it would be appreciated if you take the time to read my own take. Scholes, Riquelme and Redondo (about which you yourself said he wasn't a defensive midfielder in his role) are among your favorites for this but those three combined have still not as many ESM selections as Seedorf had.

Scholes might have been vastly underrated by ESM, PFA or Ballon d'Or, to a great extent I've agreed with that in the past (I cited a source in the past showing his approximate number of pre-assists), but he has to make up considerable ground to create parity - or to go beyond that and give him more HMs and 50% more inclusions - and he played for favored teams (one club man for ManUnited, player for England).

But it is not only that point I made:

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

Van Persie still played 38 official games that season, which is comparatively not particularly low. That Tevez played 10 more games is offset by the vastly superior national team and European form by RVP, and the comparable form - if not better and more productive (see above) - in the league.

I don't claim RVP has to be included but he wins the comparison here.

Nobody is complaining about 'La Maquina' only playing 18 games together. The circular reporting, echo chambers, the creation of a critical mass and careful omissions take care of it.
[...]
I would say it is a big mistake to include Scholes more often than Seedorf. One of the many evidences for a systematic neglect (as pretty much admitted by you above).

Is there any other central starting player with three or more Champions Leagues with so few inclusions?
[...]
This is all relative and your perception (here is mine - of course you did not read). Ultimately he has more ESM team of the month inclusions than a Redondo or Pirlo so what are you babbling. Again, a double handicap.

There is only one integral player with more than two Champions Leagues with so few inclusions and he's Dutch.

There is only one team captain who reached the CL final and World Cup final in the same season, without being in the top 100 names for the year. Again, he's Dutch.

All of that smells like a systematic tendency, one fed by not caring to pay attention (by your own admission).

One sees it again and again. The Eredivisie gets propped up when the topic shifts to Romario and Suarez. The temptation to include Romario for his PSV years is there, while MvB at Ajax is all too happily ignored.

Or the discrepancies in how Cruijff played for a super team while Maradona played for poor Napoli. But guess what? His Ajax helpers did not receive the same international accolades as a Careca did. Does not compute. And it is this that is the saddest part: the ignorance and refusal to rate is not followed up logically and in a consequential sense - not when it might have a positive implication for another Dutch player. It has all no consequential implications, a logical follow through, certainly not among your type of circles.

Rather, it is a whole web of mutually incompatible dominant perceptions.

Additionally: was Scholes ever playing in three tournament semi finals? (no, he didn't play for Croatia or Switzerland). Was he ever in the running to become the record assister for English teams in the Champions League or thereabouts? Is his scoring record against the primary rivals Arsenal (2 goals in 20 for league; 0 goals in CL) particularly great, with Keane playing in his back? What tangible things are out there to argue his influence?

Either way, to focus only on Scholes misses the point a bit.

 

Ok mate, I think that goes beyond what I could properly answer.

Indeed, it's likely that I can't create a perfect and uniform criterion for all cases, but I'm pretty sure that I don't intend to diminish the Dutch players in this exercise, at least not deliberately. I can't deny with certainty that I do it in some unconscious way because of what you mention, but if that were the case I don't notice it even a little (I don't only have any reason for it, but also that the circle in which I use to be it's not strange to Dutch football nor there is a big difference between I consume as Spanish speaker about it).

Anyway, I'm open to that criticism if there are more similar opinions, but I also think that there is a possibility that you're being partial because you're Dutch.

I can't answer you the van Basten case, it's been Tom's area, but in the Cruyff case I reviewed what you mentioned and the inclusions of his partners in their golden years with Ajax were the following:

- Piet Keizer (1971, 1972)
- Horst Blankenburg (1972, 1973)
- Johan Neeskens (1972, 1973)
- Arie Haan (1973)
- Ruud Krol (1973)

Who I miss is Velibor Vasovic at some point between 1967 to 1971 (although he was included in 1966 in his last season with Partizan Belgrade) and I'm not sure about some scratch of Barry Hulshoff, Wim Suurbier, Gerrie Mühren, Sjaak Swart, Johnny Rep (included in 1978) or Dick van Dijk.

About Maradona's teammates during his golden years with Napoli:

- Salvatore Bagni (1987)
- Careca (1989)

Careca appeared 4 times, but 3 of them during his Sao Paulo days. They were not taken into account Ciro Ferrara (I included him once later, in 1995) Fernando De Napoli, Alemao, Bruno Giordano or Andrea Carnevale.

At least here you can see a difference (in favor).

 

I checked the Seedorf inclusions in the ESM Team of the Month:

1995/96: 1 (December 1995)
1996/97: 3 (November 1996, December 1996, May 1997)
1999/00: 1 (January 2000)
2001/02: 1 (March 2002)
2002/03: 1 (May 2003)
2003/04: 1 (February 2004)
2006/07: 1 (May 2007)

This is what I mean. He was included 9 times, but only once more than once (in the 1996-97 season, when I included him for the first time) and the most are spread out in different seasons, which elevates him from a comparative point in general about the consistency of his career, but it's not so favorable from the comparison of season by season (a common scenario for several).

On the other hand, he won 4 UEFA Champions League, but coincidentally (and leaving aside the 1994-95 season because then there isn't an ESM Team of the Month) he wasn't included anytime when he won in the 1997-98 season and just only once in the 2002-03 comparing with his teammates:

1997-98

- Roberto Carlos (8)
- Fernando Hierro (5)
- Fernando Redondo (2)
- Raúl (2)
- Predrag Mijatovic (2)
- Santiago Cañizares (1)

2002-03

- Paolo Maldini (6)
- Alessandro Nesta (2)
- Filippo Inzaghi (2)
- Rui Costa (1)
- Clarence Seedorf (1)
- Andriy Shevchenko (1)

Of course, I don't mean that is an infallible method to measure them, but even in these selections of the ESM there is a coincidence at this point in specific years which Seedorf won 2 UEFA Champions League and I didn't include him.

 

I finished my first attempt for the 2012 list and I'm full of doubts, but, unlike the previous one, this time because I think here were many outstanding performances everywhere and it's really complicated to choose among so many star roles.

Being an Euro year I've supported a lot in the continental competition (with Spain as protagonist), but at the club level it seems more complicated. Chelsea won the UEFA Champions League with some consistent individual performances and one determinant (Drogba), but I get the feeling that none forming a complete combo with the exception of Ramires, who coincidentally couldn't play the final match.

On the contrary, I feel that there were many stellar individual performances of the agonizing English champion, Manchester City, and the champion of "La Liga de los Récords", Real Madrid (by scoring 121 goals in one single season).

This is my 2012 Preliminary List:

Agüero, Sergio (Argentina & Manchester City)
Alonso, Xabi (Spain & Real Madrid)
Buffon, Gianluigi (Italy & Juventus)
Casillas, Íker (Spain & Real Madrid)
Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal & Real Madrid)
Drogba, Didier (Ivory Coast & Chelsea)
Falcao, Radamel (Colombia & Atlético de Madrid)
Hummels, Mats (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
Ibrahimovic, Zlatan (Sweden & AC Milan)
Iniesta, Andrés (Spain & Barcelona)
Messi, Lionel (Argentina & Barcelona)
Kompany, Vincent (Belgium & Manchester City)
Özil, Mesut (Germany & Real Madrid)
Pirlo, Andrea (Italy & Juventus)
Ramos, Sergio (Spain & Real Madrid)
Reus, Marco (Germany & Borussia Mönchengladbach)
Ribéry, Franck (France & Bayern Munich)
Rooney, Wayne (England & Manchester United)
Silva, David (Spain & Manchester City)
Thiago Silva (Brazil & AC Milan)
Touré, Yaya (Ivory Coast & Manchester City)
van Persie, Robin (Netherlands & Arsenal)
Xavi (Spain & Barcelona)

Honorable Mentions

Adebayor, Emmanuel (Togo & Tottenham Hotspur)
Adrián (Spain & Atlético de Madrid)
Agger, Daniel (Denmark & Liverpool)
Alaba, David (Austria & Bayern Munich)
Alba, Jordi (Spain & Valencia)
Arango, Juan (Venezuela & Borussia Mönchengladbach)
Arteta, Mikel (Spain & Arsenal)
Ba, Demba (Senegal & Newcastle United)
Baines, Leighton (England & Everton)
Bale, Gareth (Wales & Tottenham Hotspur)
Balotelli, Mario (Italy & Manchester City)
Barzagli, Andrea (Italy & Juventus)
Benzema, Karim (France & Real Madrid)
Bernard (Brazil & Atlético Mineiro)
Boateng, Kevin-Prince (Ghana & AC Milan)
Busquets, Sergio (Spain & Barcelona)
Cardozo, Óscar (Paraguay & Benfica)
Cássio (Brazil & Corinthians)
Cavani, Edinson (Uruguay & Napoli)
Cazorla, Santi (Spain & Málaga)
Cech, Petr (Czech Republic & Chelsea)
Chiellini, Giorgio (Italy & Juventus)
Cole, Ashley (England & Chelsea)
Coloccini, Fabricio (Argentina & Newcastle United)
Dani Alves (Brazil & Barcelona)
Dante (Brazil & Borussia Mönchengladbach)
David Luiz (Brazil & Chelsea)
Debuchy, Mathieu (France & Lille)
Dempsey, Clint (United States & Fulham)
Di María, Ángel (Argentina & Real Madrid)
Di Natale, Antonio (Italy & Udinese)
Diego (Brazil & Atlético de Madrid)
Dost, Bas (Netherlands & Heerenveen)
Dzagoev, Alan (Russia & CSKA Moscow)
Émerson Sheik (Qatar & Corinthians)
Eriksen, Christian (Denmark & Ajax)
Fabregas, Cesc (Spain & Barcelona)
Filipe Luís (Brazil & Atlético de Madrid)
Fred (Brazil & Fluminense)
Gaitán, Nicolás (Argentina & Benfica)
Giovinco, Sebastian (Italy & Parma)
Giroud, Olivier (France & Montpellier)
Gómez, Mario (Germany & Bayern Munich)
Gündogan, Ilkay (Germany & Borussia Dortmund)
Hart, Joe (England & Manchester City)
Hazard, Eden (Belgium & Lille)
Higuaín, Gonzalo (Argentina & Real Madrid)
Hulk (Brazil & Porto)
Huntelaar, Klaas-Jan (Netherlands & Schalke 04)
Isco (Spain & Málaga)
Ivanovic, Branislav (Serbia & Chelsea)
James Rodríguez (Colombia & Porto)
Jovetic, Stevan (Montenegro & Fiorentina)
Kagawa, Shinji (Japan & Borussia Dortmund)
Kaká (Brazil & Real Madrid)
Khedira, Sami (Germany & Real Madrid)
Kroos, Toni (Germany & Bayern Munich)
Lahm, Philipp (Germany & Bayern Munich)
Lavezzi, Ezequiel (Argentina & Napoli)
Lescott, Joleon (England & Manchester City)
Lewandowski, Robert (Poland & Borussia Dortmund)
Litchsteiner, Stephan (Switzerland & Juventus)
Llorente, Fernando (Spain & Athletic Club)
Lúcio (Brazil & Inter Milan)
Maggio, Christian (Italy & Napoli)
Marcelo (Brazil & Real Madrid)
Marchisio, Claudio (Italy & Juventus)
Martínez, Javi (Spain & Athletic Club)
Mata, Juan (Spain & Chelsea)
Mertens, Dries (Belgium & PSV Eindhoven)
Miccoli, Fabrizio (Italy & Palermo)
Michu (Spain & Rayo Vallecano)
Milito, Diego (Argentina & Inter Milan)
Modric, Luka (Croatia & Tottenham Hotspur)
Moutinho, Joao (Portugal & Porto)
Müller, Thomas (Germany & Bayern Munich)
Muniain, Íker (Spain & Athletic Club)
Nani (Portugal & Manchester United)
Nené (Brazil & Paris Saint-Germain)
Neuer, Manuel (Germany & Bayern Munich)
Neymar (Brazil & Santos)
Nocerino, Antonio (Italy & AC Milan)
Parker, Scott (England & Tottenham Hotspur)
Paulo Jorge (Portugal & APOEL)
Pepe (Portugal & Real Madrid)
Piszczek, Lukas (Poland & Borussia Dortmund)
Pizarro, Claudio (Peru & Werder Bremen)
Ramires (Brazil & Chelsea)
Ronaldinho (Brazil & Atlético Mineiro)
Schweinsteiger, Bastian (Germany & Bayern Munich)
Shirokov, Roman (Russia & Zenit Saint Petersburg)
Sigurdsson, Gylfi (Iceland & 1899 Hoffenheim/Swansea City)
Soldado, Roberto (Spain & Valencia)
Song, Alex (Cameroon & Arsenal)
Susaeta, Markel (Spain & Athletic Club)
Toulalan, Jérémy (France & Málaga)
Valencia, Luis Antonio (Ecuador & Manchester United)
Vermaelen, Thomas (Belgium & Arsenal)
Vidal, Arturo (Chile & Juventus)

Top 3

1° Lionel Messi
2° Cristiano Ronaldo
3° Andrés Iniesta or Andrea Pirlo

Thoughts will be appreciated.

 

Technically not, but at the end of the season there was a vote by eight magazines and he was one of 44 names to get inclusions. He was not included by his compatriot of VI though.

One can see that as comparable to ESM team of the month inclusions.

I think there is a good deal of merit in this (as you can maybe see shining through in my own take), at the same time it is a matter of perspective. If we look at other integral midfielders that won the UCL more than once we see the following:

Pirlo received zero inclusions when he won in 2003 and zero when he won in 2007. Scholes received zero in 1999 and zero in 2008. Giggs received one in 1999 and zero in 2008. Xabi Alonso received zero in 2005 and zero in 2014. Mascherano (a relative favorite of yours) has zero in his entire career, just as Gattuso.

Redondo has two in 1998, one in 2000 (albeit in the important month May, same as Seedorf for 2003) and zero in 2003. Busquets has zero in 2009, 2011 or 2015. Kroos has one in 2013, zero in 2016, one in 2017, zero in 2018. Modric has one in 2014, one in 2016, one in 2017 and one in 2018. Isco has zero in 2014, zero in 2016, one in 2017 (april) and one for 2018 (september). Deco has two in 2004 and zero in 2006.

Even Iniesta - an obvious ESM favorite - has only one in 2006 and one in 2015. Or Xavi with one in 2006 and zero in 2015. Next to the ones they won in 2009 and 2011.

Who of the midfielders - with two CLs or more - do I forget?

Now there are also other awards or valuations around (also for Seedorf with regards to 1997-98 - see my writing where I cited one example) and I don't claim he was as good as Xavi (not by definition) but I think my general point on systematic tendencies still stands.


As mentioned in my own take on him, I think it speaks for him - if people take the time to research - that despite his 'tactical' and variable midfield role, he had tangible contributions in each of the close Champions Leagues that his teams won. It is not as Modric or Pirlo - as good as they are - who generally don't score or assist that much, or not at all (Modric 1 assist and 1 goal in 2018, 0 goals and 1 assist in 2017 etc.).

Nor did his team perform as well in Europe if he was forced to sit out games. This is for 2002-03:

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

About the tactically versatile Seedorf (Ancelotti shifted him around to give his midfield the accent he liked - wasn't always good for his flair elements and not good for spectacular grades) there is often the idea in the Netherlands that he was 'lucky'. There is the idea you get the same result if you'd replace Seedorf with, say, Scholes or Iniesta.

A completely forgotten scene is the retiring Rijkaard forecasting after the 1995 final - where he had given the winning assist - Seedorf his long and successful career.

This tends to overlook however his excellent scoring record against rivals Juventus and Inter, and also his contribution in the victorious Champions League campaigns - in often relatively tight and low scoring affairs. In 2002-03 he was after/next to Gattuso arguably the most consistent Milan midfielder in the Champions League. Also think he edges it ahead of Pirlo in the league, where Milan finished 3rd.

Here at 3:18 his crucial half-assist in the semi final against Inter, 1-1 (not counted by UEFA)
At 1:38 assist against Borussia Dortmund, 0-1 (one-time touch)
At 1:02 one-two and assist against Bayern Munich, 1-2
At 0:10 assist against Bayern Munich, 2-1
The opening goal against Deportivo la Coruna, unlocking the game

This raises the question whether they still win the Champions League (reach the final) if you replace Seedorf with just any other good/great midfielder. He was also injured after 20 minutes in the 1st quarter final leg against Ajax, and missed the 2nd leg, which was very nearly fatal for Milan (some lucky deflections helped them out).
[...]
Further look on the Champions League games that he missed - forced to miss - between 1994 and 2012 (first and last game): 8 wins, 4 draws, 7 losses. Not an enormously convincing record for these teams I'd say (Real Madrid and Milan). In the 2002-03 season: 2 losses and 1 win.

His record in the UCL games he played is 68W 35D 28L

The UEFA Cup: that is 2W and 1L in matches he missed. This is excluding the 1992-93 UEFA Cup, when he was 16 years old in all matches. If one adds that then it is 6W and 2L.

But of course 'luck' is necessary, as Nedved's case shows.

I genuinely think that is a fair and honest take.

 

Maybe it is not conscious but you waive various points away (for example the historical Elo rating, the number of semis and quarters reached) without really replying to it, I feel.

That Blankenburg is two times in this and Vasovic not once is a farce and - again - revealing of certain systematic tendencies. Blankenburg his career at other teams and how his absence did not hurt Ajax (not true for other players) shows his true level.

This would merit a separate discussion and spelling out of the balance.

Why is Hazard not in the 23? Is it because he did not perform so much in the CL or for his national team?

I also find it baffling how you include eight Bayern players but Robben is not one of them. Ribery will end up with three times as many inclusions at this rate (I suspect Robben will not be in for 2015 and 2017, which he actually deserves). Again, emblematic for the tendencies I spot here.

He was injured a lot but he was crucial and productive in the KO stages of the CL, and had important involvements in two goals against Real Madrid in the semis (3-3 on aggregate). Scored two great goals against England, assist against Portugal and Germany. At WhoScored he was the joint 2nd best Bayern player (behind Ribery, who was fit throughout the season).

Anyway, time to leave the discussion here. I don't want to ruin it.

 

Some external lists for 2012:

FIFA Ballon d'Or (NT coaches/captains, and journalists vote): Messi (41.60%), C Ronaldo (23.68%), Iniesta (10.91%), Xavi (4.08%), Radamel Falcao (3.67%), Casillas (3.18%), Pirlo (2.66%), Drogba (2.60%), van Persie (1.45%), Ibrahimovic (1.24%), Xabi Alonso (1.09%), Yaya Toure (0.76%), Neymar (0.61%), Ozil (0.41%).

UEFA Men's Player of the 2011/12 Season (European journalists vote): Votes after short-listing: Iniesta 19, Messi 17, C Ronaldo 17. Rest of Top 10 before short-listing: Pirlo 90, Xavi 57, Casillas 53, Drogba 51, Cech 14, Falcao 14, Ozil 10.

South American Player of the Year (El Pais: from players based in South America): Neymar won with 199 votes. Nearest rival had 50.

Eastern European Player of the Year (Radioropa, German-speaking radio station): Cech (29%), Lewandowski (21%), Modric (20%), Mhitaryan (12%), Ivanovic (11%), Mandzukic (9%). [Percentages have been rounded up - total is 102%].

World Soccer Player of the Year (Readers vote): Messi

La Liga (Spain) Best Player 2011/12 Season: Messi

Footballer of the 2011/12 German Season: Reus

Serie A (Italy) Best Player of the 2011/12 Season: Pirlo

Footballer of the 2011/12 English Season: Van Persie won both the Football Writers Association (FWA) and Professional Footballers Association (PFA) awards.

ESM Team of the Month Appearances 2011/12 Season (Max 9) [Club form: Players above only]: Messi 9, C Ronaldo 8, van Persie 5, Xavi 5, Falcao 2, Pirlo 2, Reus 2, Casillas 1, Cech 1, Drogba 1, Iniesta 1, Ibrahimovic 0, Ozil 0, Xabi Alonso 0, Neymar n/a. Also in Team of the Season: Dani Alves 5, Kompany 5, Kagawa 4, Neuer 3, Sergio Ramos 3.

2012 Euros Golden Ball (UEFA Technical Team selection): Iniesta. A squad of 23 was chosen, which included ten of the winning Spanish team. Of the players mentioned above, Ibrahimovic, Neuer, Ozil, Pirlo, Sergio Ramos and C Ronaldo were also chosen.

Combining these sources, Messi looks like number one. He is ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo on all comparable measures, apart from the UEFA journalists' vote where they are level. In this election Iniesta is a narrow winner, and is also leading player of the Euros, ahead of Ronaldo. But the Spaniard only appears in one ESM Team of the Month and is well behind the other two in the FIFA Ballon d'Or, where he is comfortably third.

Of the other candidates, Xavi is fourth in the Ballon d'Or and has five ESM appearances, but is behind Serie A player of the year Pirlo in the UEFA journalists vote. Van Persie is the best player in England and also has five ESM appearances, but does not make UEFA's Euros squad (Netherlands eliminated in group stage) or their journalists' Top 10. Neymar is far and away the leading footballer in South America, but picks up less than 1% of the FIFA Ballon d'Or vote.

Most of the prominent names above have been included in Peru FC's initial 23. Among the exclusions are: Neymar, Dani Alves (5 ESM appearances), Neuer (ESM Team of the Season goalkeeper and in UEFA's Euros squad), and Cech (Eastern European player of the year and 8th in UEFA journalists vote).

 

Iniesta by far.

 

Please, do you know where I could read that vote?

All about Seedorf in this exercise, do you have a direct idea of when you'd have included him and instead of who in the years he won the UCL?

Seedorf won that tournament in 1995, 1998, 2003 and 2007 and here he was included in 1997 and 2007, so there are 3 unrequited seasons.

Do you think he could or should have replaced someone I did take into account in the end for 1995, 1998 and 2003? I can't find anyone who could be notorious.

 

No. I downloaded it after it was posted. I can make screenshot but don't have access to it now (I had when I typed the previous post).

I get that you ask specifically now although it was not my general point (or rather: a set of points, with lately also the point on 8 Bayern players are included but typically not 'ko stage expert' robben).

I haven't taken a detailed look yet but I'd point out that he actually received BdO and WPotY votes in 1998 while club mate Redondo received zero, nor was Redondo present for the national side. So once again there is kind of a double handicap here, albeit not nearly as glaring is at other moments.

We might as well talk about years where he didn't win the CL but has - like other midfielders in other years - a reasonable argument for inclusion (for ex. 2004).

Either way, best to let this rest because I think both our viewpoints are clear. I've made my case on Scholes (what was his record against Arsenal?) and the likes, and also the general factors at work the last 20-25 years.

(I say this with considerable uncertainty, but what I personally find not coincidental, perhaps, is how first the french speaking/cultural Belgians got international approval, and only later the dutch speaking part - despite that the latter part form at least 85% of the bulk)