Dutch footballer of the year press classification 1979-1994

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Johan Neeskens (1951, Heemstede)

    "Often Nunez only narrowly survived. In 1979, when Barcelona brought home the European Cup Winners Cup [FCBs first UEFA trophy], he waved the trophy around at the airport and carried it into the team bus as if he had clinched it personally with a hat-trick. The watching fans were livid. Nunez had just refused to renew the contract of Johan Neeskens, their Dutch idol, and chanted, "Nunez no! Neeskens yes!"

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Neeskens
    http://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2016/03/15/56e84cb246163f00378b45e1.html
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/barcelona-sold-johan-neeskens-after-7554555

    Johan Segundo, or the archetypal loyal lieutenant, was an immediate hit in 1970. He was 19 and 1 months old when he made his debut in the national team (as defender) and still 19 when he won his first European Cup as a right back. This was though a waste of his abilities, including his goal threat.

    The forceful but skillful Johan Neeskens (in the match against East Germany he's clearly one of the earliest practitioners of the 'seal dribble', and this progressed play) is a typical example of a player who is valued more highly abroad than his own country. The good Spanish programme 'Fiebre Maldini' called him this year "one of the best midfielders in the history of football." Brian Glanville placed him in 1983 among the 25 best players of the past 25 years, and there are countless other examples that places him among the famous players of the 1970s. Neeskens left Europe when he was only 27, having felt that at club level there was little left to be done.
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  3. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    #128 annoyedbyneedoflogin, Aug 21, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
    I shall give you my thoughts on Neeskens.

    Neeskens was a player with a good fighting spirit, a good finisher inside the box, with his feet and his head, and he showed a great level of positioning and anticipation when he played at the back.

    For a midfielder, his passing was quite unimaginative. Had Neeskens possessed any vision, then PvH wouldn't have asked me to rate him ;).

    Looking at his skillset, I speculate that Neeskens could have been a world class box to box sweeper. He was, nevertheless, a fan favorite midfielder, similar to Toninho Cerezo.
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #129 PuckVanHeel, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
    Haha. No I was genuinely curious.

    Imho Neeskens his (attempted) passing ability and quality could vary quite a lot between games, though it became rarely dangerous in a direct sense (but then again: the same can be said about Redondo, Pirlo and many others). That leads to differing assesments about him.

    Videos of his peak year 1976 are somewhat lacking. He scored freely and in his own words "dribbled past two or three players as if it costs no effort".

    I know @PDG1978 has pointed at some flicks, one-two short passes, and at times the distribution was at a level you'd expect from an elite central midfielder (video game simulations also rate that fairly well, but not at Platini or Cruijff level of course).

    The knowledgeable @wm442433 wrote this about him in his great footballers list.

    "Neeskens – ''Johan II''. Was the fidel lieutenant of Cruyff on the Ajax then FC Barcelona sides as he was as much in the national team of Holland, if not surpassing this status at the occasion of the 1974 World Cup.

    Solid as a rock as a defender, sharp as steel as a counter-attacking player (and also sometimes when defending), Neeskens was a very active player who, from his central midfield position, shouldered at the same time the roles of n°6, n°10 and also n°9 when he launched himself in direction of the heart of penalty area (and we especially think here about his performance of '74). The reserved boy but impetuous player of the ''oranje mechanic'', by his considerable athletical and technical means, his versatility and his tactical awareness, was the model for the modern midfielder.

    On this, let's not forget about the quality of his shots (such as the shots from long-range distance). Penalty-taker, like in the WM '74, he always shooted en force right in the middle of the goals. A particularity of him. The goalkeepers never knew the parry.

    With an already very distinguish career from the three European titles won with Ajax (1971-73) until a Cup Winners Cup won with Barça (1979), Neeskens quitted elite club's football quite early, before his 30 years by signing for Cosmos New York (...in '79). As for his international career, he retired in 1981 after a defeat to France during the 1982 World Cup qualifications."

    https://footballyesterdayandtoday.blogspot.com/2017/09/fyts-125-greatest-footballers-of-all.html

    You are right he was a fan favorite at Ajax and Barcelona (his last FCB match was that CWC final) and also a favorite of the 'neutral' press (see this). Probably helped by he was with one leg in the 'La Furia' tradition and the other leg in the 'total football' tradition. Traditionalists and the 'sophisticated' could see something in him that they liked.

    With a bit more luck he had won the league in 1977* (if the other Johan was not suspended for a few games), and also for him we can see the win percentage difference between playing and not playing (missed 30 league games).

    Show Spoiler

    As further illustration, the win percentages in the league of the most notable players for this timeframe were (between brackets the win percentage without the player).

    Kocsis - 67% [53%]
    Kubala - 65% [56%]
    Suarez Miramontes - 65% [57%]
    Cruijff - 57% [29%]
    Maradona - 55% [53%]
    Schuster - 55% [50%]
    Sotil - 53% [53%]
    Neeskens - 52% [33%]
    Lineker - 51% [50%]
    Seminario - 50% [59%]
    Krankl - 48% [46%]
    Simonsen - 48% [N/A]*
    Roberto Dinamite - 25% [42%]
    *) Simonsen missed only 4 league games, the club won 3.


    So that adds to the logic of him being a crowd favorite. He was between 1971 and 1979 also in almost all seasons competing for the prizes, with deep runs in Europe and ranking high in the table (though in his last season FCB dropped to 5th/6th, something that didn't really improve in the next seasons).

    *) On the other hand, the instrumental 1979CWC campaign was dependent on the 1978 domestic cup win. There Neeskens played only 130 minutes, and it was the first cup campaign in which foreigners were allowed to compete.

    Anyway, I know @PDG1978 likes him so maybe he is willing to share something (but if he doesn't want it's okay too)
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think I don't have a big contribution to add, but wm's description is nice and maybe the 'truth' seems a mix of what annoyedbyneedoflogin said (he was not a creator as such coming up with imaginative balls) and what you refer to in terms of plays we can see on video which show technical quality and awareness.

    In general I am looking at all profiles and repping occasionally like for the interesting Cocu one recently, but will probably have some thoughts to add as an overview of the whole list. I like that you are spending the time to write useful (for the future too, if people will be referring to this thread) profiles though, so that's better than revealing the list and having us all talk about positions in it immediately etc. I pointed out of course by PM already that Van Breukelen was in the image you selected playing for Forest at Manchester United (celebrating a goal/win it seems in the game at Old Trafford in 83/84 early in his Forest career). It is true that the opinion of those who saw him regularly seems to be that on a short-term basis at least (given his short stay) he can be called the second best Forest goalie behind Shilton. He was making good saves away at Tottenham in the first live Division 1 televised game!


    Yeah, it'll be interesting to see anyway who is yet to come in the CMs list. It seems Neeskens might have ended slightly surprisingly low (wouldn't necessarily mean below Haan though since you categorised them in different positions) and/or some players might be slightly surprisingly omitted. I guess it is the category of Ronald de Boer for example (although not sure, but feasibly I could imagine he might get omitted from 50 players over entire Dutch history, including a decent number from early years) and Seedorf I guess (yeah, some sources would have him below Neeskens internationally) as well as Van Hanegem who I know is often rated high in the Netherlands compared to internationally.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks, I just hope I don't overlook something noteworthy in terms of records, firsts, lasts etc. That's quite hard. Cocu was/is indeed a likable figure (some say he's too nice) and it is a pity that a video showing his passes has been deleted. Cocu was also taken in the B-draft at the time, with some (condor11) saying he was their favorite dutch player.

    props to @annoyedbyneedoflogin too. He has very good comments and a view of his own.

    :thumbsup:

    Yeah, you send that to me, you recognized the game.

    From what I read and saw I think HvB was better in the 2nd half of 1983-84. He was recovering from an injury isn't it? I agree/think there is a lot pointing at him doing well for Forest, both in (added/improved) results and reception by fans and chroniclers, with the bar set high by Shilton. But ofc HvB is in the list for his career and story as a whole rather than a short spell (like De Goey at Chelsea).

    Haan is slightly below Neeskens in the overall list (to which I'll come at the very end), with some of the researchers and editors preferring Haan over Neeskens. It's acknowledged Haan had often a different role.

    Ronald de Boer is among the attacking midfielders (but was also shifted around the team) and yeah, he might have been omitted as well. It's maybe a debatable inclusion when seeing who are out.

    I think those lists get more interesting/enjoyable if there is variation in background and context, and some nice true stories.

    Maybe I'm wrong now to get into detail already here, but I can get this brother pair is in rather than the (also internationally successful) Koeman, Muhren and Vd Kerkhof pairs.

    Both Ronald and Frank made the Ballon d'Or list more than once.

    Ronald de Boer is the youngest player to compete in an European final match (the 1987 supercup).

    "They both played in 11 matches at major tournaments (8 World Cup and 3 European championship matches), equal to the Van de Kerkhof record (7 World Cup matches, all in 1978, and 4 in European championships). Those 8 World Cup matches in which both played is a world record for a brother pair (the Charlton brothers and the Van de Kerkhof twins follow with 7).
    [...]
    Below we list all matches of the Dutch national team in which both twin brothers played. It is interesting to note that the Dutch team had a better average performance in matches in which both played than in matches in which only one of the two (regardless whether Frank or Ronald) made an appearance."

    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/boertjes-intl.html

    In general I think VI sees it right that this era of De Boertjes, Davids etc. (also the likes of Cocu; and Van Hooijdonk, Hasselbaink who are not in) was in depth one of the strongest generations, if not the strongest. Ronald de Boer has sometimes a peculiar sense of humor too.
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, just to clarify I didn't think I'd be leaving Ronald de Boer out myself, but just thought it could be feasible he ended up out of the list (Seedorf perhaps less so for example). But yeah I did have the thought about him being in an AMs list after I made my post to be honest, and certainly compared to a Neeskens it seems reasonable to categorise him like that (also when he played as a CM arguably, like on the right of the 3-4-3 diamond, that would be the deepest role he ever played I suppose and sometimes he was outright attacker, while Neeskens was a DM in effect quite often wasn't he too....).
     
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  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Clarence Seedorf (1976, Paramaribo)

    Louis van Gaal, october 1992: "Seedorf is a footballer of the 21st century. He is so polyvalent that he can be put on the position of Jonk as on the position of Bergkamp."


    [​IMG]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Seedorf
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6jbn83






    The VI profile starts with: "You do not have them more controversial in this top 50. The class was dripping from a very early age of the young Seedorf, nevertheless [...]" The profile ends with: "Had Clarence Seedorf been a Spaniard (despite a stay of only three-and-a-half years he was included in Real Madrid's team of the century), an Italian (he is in the Milan hall of fame and no foreigner played more games for them), or a Brazilian (he was seen as sensational for Botafogo), then he had perhaps endured a lot less. Then he wasn't laughed out of town after kicking a penalty high in the sky as a 21-years old against Turkey."

    Johan Seedorf decided early 1978 to take his son and family to Almere. Then a tiny town with surprisingly bad infrastructure of 1800 citizens, but now destined to become the 5th largest city of the country. Father Johan called it "perhaps the most interesting, pioneering and best decision of our life."

    As the VI profile points out, he was and still is the youngest debuting Ajax player ever and immediately scored on his debut (just as Cruijff, Van Basten and Rijkaard), and he retired with almost 1000 competitive games behind his name. As a 16-years old he immediately made a mature, clever but also self-assured (some say arrogant) impression, early 1993 he had in the VI already wise remarks (re-printed by them). In 1995 he was one of four outfield players to play in all Champions League games (started in 10 of 11).

    Clarence Seedorf - respectfully nicknamed 'the professor' by Italians - received the appreciation to be the default #10 shirt wearer of renowned institutions as Real Madrid, Internazionale and AC Milan, yet divides the opinions among many fault-lines. Most notably he is the only player to win the Champions League with three different clubs, four in total, and also played 6 games in Real Madrid's 2000 win (thus it could have been five).

    His national team career is largely considered a failure. In his first 11 games he scored 5 goals, but euro 1996 and the Turkey penalty damaged his bond with the FA for good. He was in only one tournament a starter, in 2004, where he was in fairness sometimes included in teams of the tournament with grades that rank among the best 5 midfielders.
    The VI profile includes some quotes of him about various managers: "Because of prejudices I was structurally left out by two managers. Van Basten [10 caps under him] made a mistake. I experienced him as a good trainer, but the way he dealt with me and the other omitted players, I found that below level. Lack of people management."
    Van Marwijk [0 caps] came to the idea Seedorf is too big a player to be put on the bench. Seedorf said: "I found that a terribly weak argument. He shouldn't fill in for me whether I can accept a place on the bench or not. Someone who is a locked starter for Milan, needs to be called up for Oranje in my opinion, and if I had to convince him from the bench, so be it. Van Marwijk took something away from me and my heart still bleeds."

    What remains is a very versatile club player with a world class technique. Seedorf remained a starter for Milan until the age of 35/36, is top assister for Italian clubs in the Champions League. He had tangible contributions in all the close affairs Champions Leagues that his teams won, and sometimes strong ratings too (for ex. kicker in 1997-98, best rated of his team in the last 7 games, ending Madrid's 32 years CL drought). He was in the ESM team of the month for five different clubs of different types and sizes, and nominated for the Ballon d'Or for four different clubs. Also his record against main rivals can be mentioned (for ex. 8 non-penalty goals in 23 games against Juventus), and that in some big matches, if used that way, he had the most touches of the ball (2007 semi final). Finally, those massive clubs performed worse in Europe when he wasn't available.

    Seedorf was arguably lucky, and he isn't the #1 here, but occasionally helped to bend fortune in his way. Frank Rijkaard forecasted after the 1995 final Seedorf is going to win a lot.

    @annoyedbyneedoflogin
     
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  9. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    #134 annoyedbyneedoflogin, Aug 23, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
    For someone who sees football as a game of making the least mistakes, a Pandora's box player like Seedorf is not a safe bet for a number 6 or even an 8 without an anchor. So either van Gaal is "stupid" or I'm "that smart", to quote LvG himself lol.

    This was also reflected in Milan's setup, where Seedorf always had a safety net in the likes of Albertini and Gattuso etc.

    To define his skill set a bit better;
    Seedorf was a technically and physically sound player, not to say gifted. He seemed to be more at ease shooting from distance than killing from up close. He had frequent lapses in his concentration. Often he would mix moments of magic (CL assists) with utter wastefulness.

    Eventually, Seedorf found his sweet spot at the left side of the midfield. Here he could move inside without getting too close to the penalty area and yet feel free to try things with the defense behind him.

    At the NT he was not used as such. He was often paired in center midfield with an 8 like Davids or Cocu.
    At Euro 2000, Rijkaard gave Seedorf a shot to redeem his reputation, subbing him in for Bergkamp. Unfortunately for Seedorf, his improbability drive rolled blanks.
    His reputation, together with imperfect tactics, cost him a lot of potential caps.

    Seedorf had his limitations but could crack open a match when rubbed in the right way. He merits a spot in this top 50 for more than just his success.
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    :thumbsup:

    He has some nice finishes from close range, in particular for Real Madrid but yes his shooting power was more of a stand out feature.

    In an attacking sense he could be wasteful, error-prone and in some phases of his career lacking concentration (you also spotted the same for De Bruyne I remember), but think it depended quite a bit on his role and position.

    He played sometimes on a position or with a certain task (to be marking, or to have the most touches like in 2007 vs ManUnited) where he was very focused and made fewer (or: few) mistakes. Towards the end of his career he also wore the captains armband often (with Ambrosini not playing) and he took that responsibility serious.

    But, if he played a bit more advanced, and it wasn't his job to see constantly the ball (or attack the ball), he could be wasteful and loss of focus. If he was playing on the Pirlo or Gattuso spot (that happened) it was different.

    Most coaches loved him and what they could do with him (Hiddink was an exception, probably not good for his NT career and also not good for him later at Real Madrid, and a factor why they sold him next to big debts pre-Perez).

    Also think he wasn't always understood well by raters (at other moments he received his fame). What he said here against FourFourTwo is a legitimate thing:

    "He [Sven-Goran Eriksson] taught me that even on the pitch you have to adapt to the culture of the country you are in. I remember one such occasion like it was happening now: he and I were sitting on the bench, and he explained to me that among a load of bricklayers the work of the architect can go unappreciated, so I had to put a few bricks down. At Ajax I had been taught to intercept passes without going after the man, because I knew he would have passed it anyway and my run would have been pointless. I continued to think that way but everyone thought I was lazy for not running. I knew it was the right attitude, and Eriksson did too, but if no one else did, I realised I needed to adapt. So I started laying bricks. I learned a lot about how to behave abroad. It was a key moment for me."

    Important was that he felt confidence from the coach, and it was clear what he was asked to do. If not, then he could be very wasteful indeed. He himself said players just need clear and simple instructions. Those national team matches where he was straddling and swimming around on the right side and was playing his own match, detached from the world, were the worst.

    He is together with Iniesta the player to fire the most shots without scoring a goal at the european championships.

    But if he was asked to mark a player (which happened in some big matches) then he did that very diligently and focused imho.

    That's kinda right. One such 'man of the match' performance (with late winning assist) of that type was the 2-3 against Real Madrid in 2010. He was very good there.

    This was the situation for euro 2004. Before that there was a long spell (1997 to 2003) where he was often put on the wing, as sub or not selected at all. Until 1997 he had regularly a central role yes (and did actually pretty fine there).

    My impression was there that he didn't feel comfortable. He was swimming around. Also Aron Winter came in while he had a bad season behind him. It was a controversial pair of substitutions.

    In that sense I can see the thinking of Seedorf not being a player for the bench. That can make him vulnerable for being a scapegoat (again).

    I'd doubt it is mainly the ability to adapt. Ajax, Sampdoria, Real Madrid, Internazionale and AC Milan are all widely different clubs with different backgrounds and sizes, and he received ESM or BdO recognition (among others) for all of them.
     
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  11. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I did mean Ambrosini, a player with a lot of flair in his name but.....

    Sneijder also received praise for a few performances as a 6 but let's not put either down as top 50 for that position.

    I like your specification of Seedorf's NT positions. :thumbsup:
     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    :thumbsup: Indeed. Albertini was more of a CM as well and left in the same summer as Seedorf arrived to Milan (summer 2002).

    Thanks. I like your views and perception too.

    That's true, though I think Seedorf was more of a natural six. As you know, he was playing there regularly when he was very young. With his athleticism, stamina and positioning he could do a lot, and he could do 'a job'. If anything he was more defensive for Ajax (1993 to 1995) than for Samp and Real Madrid.

    Interesting is that youtube has not only a few successful ones (like this and this) but also some less successful matches.

    This one:


    He has some nice assists or pre-assists against clubs as Roma, Juventus or Inter. Including one outside the boot long pass. Had some 'big' goals in the 2004 scudetto.
     
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  13. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Since the original thread goes up to 1994, I wanted to expand on the Dutch strikers. This contains no spoilers for the top 50 project.

    Especially the period around the millennium is a rich one and worth investigating. Personally, I am interested in the disparity between the striker in club form vs the striker selected for the NT.
    @PuckVanHeel I wanted to ask if he agrees with the list below and if he would like to provide (a source of) the most selected 9's (e.g. not Makaay as a 7) per season. :thumbsdown:


    Best striker from 1994-95 onwards

    94 Kluivert
    95 Kluivert
    96 Hasselbaink
    97 Hasselbaink
    98 v Nistelrooij
    99 Hasselbaink
    00 v Hooijdonk
    01 v Hooijdonk
    02 v Nistelrooij
    03 Makaay
    04 Makaay
    05 Huntelaar
    06 v Nistelrooij
    07 Huntelaar
    08 El Hamdaoui (still Dutch)
    09 Dost
    10 v Persie
    11 Huntelaar
    12 v Persie
    13 v Persie
    14 Huntelaar
    15 Janssen
    16 v Wolfswinkel
    17 Weghorst
     
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  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #139 PuckVanHeel, Aug 24, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
    Some pretty interesting calls, but better to go into more detail when arriving at the strikers rather than going back-and-forth between the categories. (maybe a PM?)
     
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  15. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Going full steam ahead:

    Best striker based on club form | NT selected

    94 Kluivert | various
    95 Kluivert | various
    96 Hasselbaink | various
    97 Hasselbaink | Kluivert
    98 v Nistelrooij | Kluivert
    99 Hasselbaink | Kluivert
    00 v Hooijdonk | Kluivert
    01 v Hooijdonk | various
    02 v Nistelrooij | various
    03 Makaay | various
    04 Makaay | v Nistelrooij
    05 Huntelaar | v Nistelrooij
    06 v Nistelrooij | various
    07 Huntelaar | various
    08 El Hamdaoui (still Dutch) | various
    09 Dost | various
    10 v Persie | v Persie
    11 Huntelaar | v Persie
    12 v Persie | v Persie
    13 v Persie | v Persie

    14 Huntelaar | v Persie
    15 Janssen | various
    16 v Wolfswinkel | various
    17 Weghorst | various

    Overall observations:
    -Most selectees are not the ones with the best form.
    -Huntelaar and v Nistelrooij have the best longevity.
    -Many get selected after their form has dropped.
    -It seems that many get selected based on their reputation (echoes) and their club's reputation.
    -Few get selected when they first hit peak form.
    -v Persie is the only player who got selected consistently when at relative peak form.
    -v Marwijk is the only manager to achieve optimal striker selection for international tournaments.
    -Optimal striker selection coincides with the best WC result of the considered period.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    As I said, maybe I go into that when we arrive at the center forwards category.

    L'Equipe, the newspaper that had an influence in establishing the European Cup, also placed him in their all-time EC/CL XI in 2011. :thumbsup:

    It's ofc difficult to compare across eras and changes in competitions/balance/rules. The Italian wikipedia shows some sources on him playing above 1000 matches at the top flight level, as one of 25-30 players to do so.

    Sometimes it's wondered whether he retired too early, since he has a high natural fitness and often stands out in charity matches (plenty foreign sources wondering about that).

    I think it is often underappreciated (or ignored) what his own direct contribution was in those finals & tight wins, despite not always having a role to produce goals or assists. He had for a short while the record for playing most UCL KO games (but of course he played in the 2nd group stage era, muting down the KO matches).



    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/nov/23/the-joy-of-six-unlikely-football-career-twilights
     
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  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Example (as end)





    http://www.sportbible.com/football/...-game-deco-produces-joke-of-a-finish-20180525

    https://www.squawka.com/en/news/fro...o-are-definitely-still-fitter-than-you/927773


    Tomorrow I'll continue with the list... (try to)
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Willem van Hanegem (1944, Breskens)

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_van_Hanegem


    Willem van Hanegem - born in Breskens, later moved to Utrecht in his youth, but frequently returned to Zeeland - was in his own country undoubtedly one of the most popular footballers in his time. He was maybe slow in acceleration, but had a skilled left foot. Before he moved to Feyenoord he was almost topscorer of the league for Xerxes (1967-68), but lack of penalties saw him coming two goals short of Kindvall, but one goal ahead of Cruijff (who did not take penalties either). The latter said: "Van Hanegem is fundamentally a good footballer. His left foot is like a hand for him, I think there is nothing he can't do with it." The journalist Brian Glanville rated him highly, and also Celtic manager Jock Stein saw him as the outstanding Feyenoord player. Van Hanegem was also the first Dutch player to receive a yellow card, from referee Van der Kroft.

    His popularity was further strengthened by his working class hero, hospitable and caring image. The rough diamond with a heart of gold, and an open door policy for his very own home. In the 1970s he was an active campaigner for the labor party and Rinus Israel said famously (and truthfully) "when he had 25 guilders in his pocket, he gave two tenths away." His care was though as much as in the immaterial things as in the material givings. Others have said that if one footballer should be an actor, it is Van Hanegem, with his talent for timing, pauses, witty speaking and his presence. Looking at Van Hanegem one sees a snapshot of a time that once was, but will not come back.

    --------------

    Goalkeepers:

    Frans de Munck (1922, Goes)
    Hans van Breukelen (1956, Utrecht)
    Jan van Beveren (1948, Amsterdam)
    Edwin van der Sar (1970, Voorhout)

    Defenders:

    Danny Blind (1961, Vlissingen)
    Harry Denis (1896, The Hague)
    Giovanni van Bronckhorst (1975, Rotterdam)
    Cor van der Hart (1928, Amsterdam)
    Rinus Israel (1942, Amsterdam)
    Frank de Boer (1970, Hoorn)
    Ruud Krol (1949, Amsterdam)
    Jaap Stam (1972, Kampen)
    Ronald Koeman (1963, Zaandam)
    Frank Rijkaard (1962, Amsterdam)

    Defensive midfielders:

    Wim Jansen (1946, Rotterdam)
    Mark van Bommel (1977, Maasbracht)
    Edgar Davids (1973, Paramaribo)
    Arie Haan (1948, Finsterwolde)

    Central midfielders:

    Philip Cocu (1970, Eindhoven)
    Johan Neeskens (1951, Heemstede)
    Clarence Seedorf (1976, Paramaribo)
    Willem van Hanegem (1944, Breskens)
     
  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
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  20. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I'll start off with a skill description of WvH.

    Willem was indeed a slow player. But he did not lack torque. He was very similar to Zidane. Both were strong/heavy players who could accelerate past an opponent (or two) but lacked the top speed to stay ahead. In contrast to Zidane's more evasive style, Willem loved to hold on to the ball in a physical manner, holding off opponents with the ball well shielded by his body mass.
    Technically, everything was there with perhaps the rare eye for the through ball missing. IMO his passing ability was similar to Didi's or perhaps Beckenbauer's.
    Willem scored a lot of goals in the continental competitions (20 in 48), many by arriving late in the box and heading in cross passes.

    This is where I'd like to connect to Seedorf and effective skill.

    Both WvH and Seedorf qualify for a hypothetical Dutch A-team, but not as absolutes. I wouldn't feature them together. This is not because of the players occupying the same spot. As explained earlier, Seedorf was topnotch at 11 or 10 in a deeplying freerole. Wvh is best as a leftsided 8.
    It has to do with potential synergies.
    Seedorf played beautiful passes from deep and WvH would arrive forward late. Better would be combining Clarence with a Cocu type of player, who made direct forward runs. And Willem did very well with a classic left winger like Moulijn, who fed his late arrivals in the box.
    One could of course plug both Seedorf and van Hanegem in an A-team just for namesake. The puzzle has multiple solutions. :coffee:
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Hmmm yes, that some sections place WvH as the 2nd best footballer (VI doesn't do that, but places him ahead of Gullit overall) is undoubtedly related to his playing abilities (and ability to translate it into tangible goal + assists), success, his charming personality but also that he played for the biggest club. At that time Feyenoord had twice or three times as many fans and visitors as Ajax. He was seen as slow and that probably cost him many caps, too.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #147 PuckVanHeel, Aug 28, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
    Attacking midfielders

    Arnold Mühren (1951, Volendam)

    "Around a Dutch midfield axis of Muhren and Frans Thijssen, signed from Twente Enschede, Bobby Robson modelled an Ipswich team along European lines who were twice second in the championship, in 1981 and '82. 'Ipswich played like a Dutch team,' Muhren said, 'and proved it was possible to play that way and be successful.' The Suffolk side won the Uefa Cup in 1981."
    (whether it was truly a continental or Dutch styled team is conceptually arguable).

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Mühren

    Arnold Mühren (his successful brother Gerrie isn't in the top 50) was technically sometimes an excellent player, or approaching those regions. His technical expertise was a big reason behind him making the cover of 'World Soccer' when he retired, as well as the cover of Shoot!

    Mühren was the first of his country to score in an FA Cup final (which his team won), and also the first to win all UEFA trophies (1972-73, 1980-81, 1986-87). Add to this an UEFA Cup final for FC Twente and he was fairly successful for different teams. Arnold Mühren is oddly three months older as Johan Neeskens.

    He is best associated with his stay at Ipswich Town, where they indeed developed a fairly cultured style with him as one of the protagonists (Mühren, famously, barely touched a ball in his first match and saw the ball flying over his head). This received the approval of Cruijff, who later took him back to Ajax in 1985. After a few injury troubled seasons and at his age it was wondered whether he could still cut it, and it resulted in a nice end of his career.

    Unfortunately, there are not many really good videos with him on youtube (there are a couple short interviews though).







    This was the nice profile of FourFourTwo's greatest imports in 2008:

    Show Spoiler
    29 & 28 Arnold Muhren & Frans Thijssen

    Nationality Dutch
    British clubs Ipswich Town (1978-82); Manchester United (Muhren, 1982-85), Nottingham Forest (Thijssen, 1983)
    The lowdown
    “The Dutchmen’s careers at Ipswich hardly got off to a flying start,” recalled former Portman Road supremo Bobby Robson years later. Signed in an audacious double swoop from FC Twente, the pair were afforded
    a distinctly lukewarm reception when they turned up in Suffolk, despite Robson claiming their arrival “could herald the dawning of a genuine Ipswich title challenge.” With Town having won the FA Cup in 1978, others remained sceptical. Kevin Beattie questioned the need “for the foreign lads at Ipswich”. For the majority of their early matches at Ipswich, the pair were peripheral figures in the hurly-burly world of Division One football.
    Thijssen was hardly enamoured with Town players’ diets, either, claiming: “If my coach back in Holland saw all the junk food and beer these players consume, he’d have a heart attack.” Muhren was horrified at the lack of medical expertise at the club. “Early on in my time there, I had a tight calf muscle, and I asked the physio if I could have a massage on the leg. ‘No, no,’ he said. ‘Go and run around in the cold. That’s the best thing for it.’”
    By the start of the ’80-81 season, the pair had begun to grab games by the scruff of the neck; Thijssen’s tight close control and Muhren’s raking passes made them arguably “the most potent midfield combination in Europe”, according to Johan Cruyff. After finishing runners-up in the league, and losing to Manchester City in the FA Cup semi-finals, Ipswich finally garnered silverware with a 5-4 aggregate victory over AZ 67 Alkmaar in the UEFA Cup final. “Everyone said what a great side we were,” recalled Muhren, “and it was wonderful to actually have a major trophy to show for it during our time at Ipswich.” Once again, Cruyff waxed lyrical, claiming, “Bobby Robson’s team are possibly the most attractive passing side in Europe. In the main, you have to say that is down to the influence of Muhren and Thijssen.”
    With the Dutchmen having placed the Suffolk outfit firmly on the football map, both men, along with the England-bound Bobby Robson, took their leave of the club. Muhren joined Manchester United, winning the FA Cup twice, and Thijssen joined Brian Clough at Forest in 1983. But their hearts remain at Ipswich. “Arnold and myself look back on our time with Bobby and the boys with huge affection,” recalled Thijssen. “In a sense, we were a sign of things to come in the English game. But in the early-’80s, our aversion to ketchup and drinking sessions made us feel slightly out of place at times!”
    Best moment
    “It was one of the most surgical destructions of a British team I’ve ever seen,” claimed Brian Glanville after Muhren and Thijssen combined to inspire Ipswich to a 6-0 home win over Manchester United in 1980.
    They said
    “They address it and caress it in such a beautiful way that it’s a joy to behold” – Bobby Robson is impressed with his imports. JW
     
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  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For who wants to read/see more, this are good pieces

    https://www.byfarthegreatestteam.com/posts/muhren-thijssen-ipswich-went-double-dutch/
    http://www.wsc.co.uk/reviews/64-Players/13775-game-changers-by-tom-van-hulsen

    This below is from "TheseFootballTimes"

    "The influence the Dutch pair had on Ipswich fans was seen in a poll run by the town’s newspaper, the Evening Star, at the end of the 1979 calendar year. In it, supporters were asked to write down their Ipswich Town Team of the 70s. Despite the relatively recent arrival of both recruits from the Netherlands, both Thijssen and Mühren dominated the votes. Considering that for the last seven years of that decade Ipswich only finished outside of the top six once – this being the year they won the FA Cup – it shows how quickly fans were taking to Mühren and Thijssen."
    https://bbs.hupu.com/20480829.html

    Here in spoilers some old stuff:
    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    As I said above, to which extent they mimicked the quintessential model with sweeper keeper, offside trap, triangles, third man principle and such (how many of the boxes they ticked) remains arguable and open for debate, but it - indeed- can be seen on videos how they evolved to a more ground based style, and Muhren is right the results improved in the league and continentally.


    N.B. Frans Thijssen is not in the top 50
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Something that could have been added is that Arnold Muhren was one of the last two players to get erased from the 1978 World Cup list (unlike WvH, JC14, Geels, vdKuijlen, vBeveren etc. he didn't drop out voluntarily). As the first link says, he had troubles with his club Twente at the time. He as left footed passer was potentially the stand-in for Van Hanegem, who was likely to be on the bench if he hadn't dropped out.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #150 PuckVanHeel, Aug 29, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
    Ronald de Boer (1970, Hoorn)

    [​IMG]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_de_Boer





    (Last video maybe the best)

    Ronald de Boer is the twin brother of Frank de Boer. Many have the temptation to say Ronald was possibly the better footballer, but long passing and through-balling Frank the better career (who had e.g. the record captain, record cap holder, all-time record European games after all). Ronald suffered after the age of 27 many injuries at the wrong moments, and after his good 1998 World Cup his national team career turned the wrong way. 'Voetbal International' refuses to make a choice and put them both on the same spot (well... Frank just one place ahead of Ronald).

    Ronald de Boer played at all the attacking positions, and not rarely with thankless tasks. His professional colleagues voted him as the best player of the country in 1994 and 1996 (when some saw him also as playing well at euro 1996). He had a praised spell at FC Twente and showed sporadic flashes in Europe for Rangers (with their rivals Celtic reaching finals...). Ronald is still the youngest player to play in an UEFA finals match, the 1987 Supercup.

    While Ronald had many commendable traits, it was sometimes objected that he should score more (counter-argument: Van Gaal does not want his striker to score goals) and that he lacked an overview beyond the 30 meters around him, despite having the technical means to do something with it. 'Tunnel vision' would do a disservice to him, it is more that it gets foggier behind the 30 meters circle. At the early stages of his career also the 'mentality' card was raised (with Frank seemingly passing the test), but this disappeared when he entered his mid-20s.

    Ronald de Boer is nowadays best remembered for his well-executed assist in the 1998 World Cup semi final, and then missing his penalty in the shoot-out.

    Voetbal International makes the boldish call to include this brother pair and not the Koeman, Muhren or Van de Kerkhof pairs who all had their trophies too, and fall within the same trope. In combined European appearances and national team & tournament appearances, the De Boer brothers end up on top. Both were also more than once nominated for awards as the Ballon d'Or so in that way it starts to make sense. They are the only twins to win the Champions League/European Cup as well as the Intercontinental Cup.

    @annoyedbyneedoflogin
     
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