I was thinking more along the lines of league football England under Roy Hodgson was equivalent to a tier C national team only good for beating san Marino/Slovenia To score 4 open play goals against 08/09 Liverpool Doing it at anfield The same Liverpool that completely obliterated real madrid That is a historic performance Granted Ronaldo Luis did something similar against a periodic top 4 side Manchester United in 02/03 He did it once in the champions league and NEVER in league football I have to emphasis yet again the premier league in the early noughties wasn't remotely comparable to it's 2006-2009 version (I don't make this up) Check the uefa coefficients Btw If you refer back to the thread where this was dealt with Not all of CRs extra assists in 06/07 were blocked shots or deflections That is simply not true His assist vs Manchester City (home) His assist vs Tottenham away His assist vs Liverpool away Weren't recognised by opta There is the small issue of pre assists too. Cristiano Ronaldo pre assisted 3 of Ryan giggs's 4 assists in the 7-1 pummeling of Roma Showing who was the real wing playmaker of that team For Ryan giggs himself 2006/07 was the best ever version of CR(or at least at Manchester United Highlighting his involvement in build up as a primary reason for this)
Yeah, there is some truth in that there. Speaking with a hyperbole: some players are remembered for various wonder goals and acrobatic headers against the big teams at the big stage; Ronaldo is remembered for Compostela and Kahn's howler. Link to an overview please? OPTA sometimes fails to recognize a slightly deflected assist (Ronaldo vs Schalke IIRC, Memphis for Lyon past weekend) but they can't be off the mark that much. Another thing for the argument he was a forward: he created 1.78 chances per 90 minutes in 2006-07. For every created chance he fired three shots. Source: the 2016 OPTA yearbook, page 112. Robben and Ribery were habitually creating over 3 chances per 90 minutes, even higher at Champions League level. This as reply to the shout Ronaldo should be among the wingers as well. Between 2003-2009 he was never above 1.8 created chances per 90 minutes. (chances = key passes + assists)
The overview is here https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cristiano-ronaldos-dribbling-ability.2034024/page-10 He had verifiable end product (assist or pre assist)against arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham in 06/07 Only against chelsea was he neutralised (still official MOTM in the league) https://www.redcafe.net/threads/man-of-the-match-v-chelsea.134854/ Less than impressive in the FA cup (final) Chances created isn't always a great indicator of position He averaged 3~ created chances per 90 in 2009/10 and was a free role striker (number 9)
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/335546/Live/Spain-LaLiga-2009-2010-Real-Madrid-Osasuna Still he is a striker/forward on paper With 2 goals 78 touches on the ball 82% pass success rate 3 key passes 3 completed dribbles 2 accurate long balls 1 accurate through ball Whoscored awarded him a 10/10 rating Anything less would've been farcical
... where it is confirmed his assists tally is bumped up by penalties won, a couple deflections and various rebounds. That is increase of 8 assists is hardly surprising with 6 shots per game. Yes, chances created is in itself not a good indicator for role or position. In combination with other statistics it is. As good as Ronaldo was (except against the top teams, according to yourself ), he was at the least an a-typical winger in his high number of shots and very low defensive involvement. In the 2006-07 season. In 2009-10 he created 2.59 chances per 90 minutes, and for every created chance he fired 3.5 shots. This is an outlier in his career because otherwise it was never above 2 per 90 minutes. And yet this outlier is still miles below what e.g. Ribery, Figo, Robben, Beckham, Nedved year after year did. Another thing is here Cristiano his chance creation in the Champions League went down, while for Giggs, Robben and Ribery it goes up at that level. That again marks out the winger in role and in position. Combine this with the other known things as the parity in goals and assists (or even more assists than goals), the defensive involvement... that all leads to such categorization. This is the last thing I have to say (against you) about whether Cristiano, as terrific as he is, has to be among the wingers or not. You asked about the stats of the "greatest winger of them all" in 2006-07 - my personal, humble but informed take is he arguably wasn't one. At the least an unusual winger. edit: if it's about making teams better (which is more important than a fluky 'two meters offside' trophy from time to time) then Cristiano surely passes that test, except perhaps his latest spell at Juventus (this will become clearer over time).
You are insisting with this whilst it simply isn't true The penalties he won are ones he took(himself) He was the number 1 designated pen taker of the team Non of his assists in 06/07 were earned penalties Some slight deflections and rebounds YES (which is why I repped the response) Ok That's fair but then what is a winger? (only a touchline winger who stays on the flank and delivers crosses-I simply don't agree) Limiting CR to a role player on the flank would be wasting his talent. SAF gave him a free role and as a consequence he roamed Ronaldo could deliver crosses with the best in the league(2nd most attempted crosses in 06-07) Ronaldo could also header the ball with the best in the premier league He could create panic/confusion with his shots from out the box He could carry the attack through the middle covering long distances in a short time with his dribbling and speed Why would SAF constrain him to a specific role(a touchline winger as figo/giggs) when he can fulfil varying roles all to a high degree? Another thing Manchester United played 4-4-2 in 06/07 with 2 flying wingers If Cristiano Ronaldo wasn't the de facto winger/midfielder Who was? Was Manchester United great enough that they could effectively play with a vacant position?
This is not correct: https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_cross He wasn't an as frequent crosser as the top wingers then. edit: there is no denying Cristiano was great at what he did, just as other players found their greatest impact when moved to other roles (Davids, Schweinsteiger for example; Overmars got moved from central midfield to a winger position, and Wenger again used him at times centrally in attack or midfield later on). Agree to disagree here then. Just to point out the crossing isn't correct.
On the first point you are correct I was looking at the forward section (he had the second most crosses by a forward in 06/07 with 143 crosses Behind some dude called Tommy Smith I checked his wiki and it said he was played as either right winger or striker Just quickly by looking through this link you said (previously) mohammad salah 18/19 was comparable to CR 08/09 in the league(both in form and positionally) Cristiano Ronaldo in the 2008/09 PL attempted 166 crosses Mohammed salah in 2018/19 PL attempted 57 crosses That is almost 3× as many crosses Fine we can agree to disagree but I thought I'd just point that out aswell In any case there seems to be a fine line between forward who plays wide and drops into midfield and a winger with a set role (hugging the touchline and delivering crosses) For example riyad mahrez 15/16 how would you categories him Winger or forward(158 attempted crosses)
I think wingers are defined not just by their position, but also by their role. Wingers is an inherently supportive role by nature. Players who play wide, but are given a more attacking role are usually defined as a forward, either as a wide-forward or in some cases, the inside-forward. I don't think anyone is saying that CR7 should've been given a supportive role, btw. His offensive skillset was such as that making him play a supportive role would incur a ridiculous opportunity cost (ie. his talent would be wasted, time spent coming deep to pick up the ball is time not spent creating chances/scoring goals, or effort spent tracking back is effort not spent getting to dangerous positions in the final 3rd). Given the talent that CR7 was, it made sense to free him of as much defensive or supportive duties, and allowed him to focus as much as possible on attacking duties, as Messi aside, he was clearly the single best player in the final 3rd, of this generation. I guess the argument is if the winger, as a role, is expected to do X amount support duty and Y amount of defending, if CR7 doesn't, then we can't classify him as such. Of course, this is all very subjective as there is no consensus on where that line is. I think it's important as well, to address your last point, that it's much clearer to think of football setups in terms of roles rather than positions. Although both Giggs and CR7 both played on the wings, they had very different role. It was clear that Giggs had the more supportive role and duty, while CR7 could focus on attacking duties. Another good example is the Arsenal team of 97/98 with Parlour on one side and Overmars on the other. It made the most sense. CR7 is your best player, so you want to maximize his potential. This is all about comparative advantage, by the way. It doesn't matter that CR7 in 06/07 could probably play the supportive role better than anyone in his team, and I think that might have been the case. That's not what mattered. What matter is opportunity cost. CR7 may be the best player in the team at both role, but CR7 supporting and someone else attacking doesn't yield as much productivity as someone else supporting and CR7 attacking, so it is only logical that a manager opts for the latter. That's how I personally view it. Obviously, all of this is extremely subjective.
So effectively a WF is a winger without defensive duties And a (conventional)winger is a support player with a designated and specific role(tracking back to assist his fullback and whipping in crosses) Out of these names who fits this criteria more (or less) Zoltan czibor Overmars George findi Jairzinho Lato Arjen robben Garrincha (tracking back when???) He looks like a purely offensive player here Riyad mahrez George Best
Id have him as a winger or attacking midfielder in a defensive and counter-attacking 4-4-2. But this is - as you know - an unusual case and unusual team. Mahrez didn't pass the ball a lot, made a few kilometers, and was by default forced to defend, too. His scoring rate at Manchester City, when he plays, is so far twice as high as it was for Leicester. Mahrez his 15 non-penalty goals with 2.3 shots per 90 minutes in 2015-16 is excellent. He didn't shoot on sight, it isn't like he had six to nine shots per match on average. For every dribble he had a pass in the final third, for every shot he created (almost) a chance for someone else. After every fourth/fifth shot he made a successful through-ball. As already said, sometimes it is the more 'limited' player who scores the goals (Andy Cole, Wright, Vardy). To reverse roles would be sub-optimal (Vardy as provider, Mahrez as scorer). Vardy also not the striker to make combinations and return the ball. Again, and this is further underlined by the unusual nature of the Leicester champions, whether someone is a winger or full-back in itself doesn't matter. Whether Mahrez actually can play football and helped his side to win games (next to Kante, Vardy) is what I judge. That he has done okay with Algeria is another plus behind his name. This is an unusual case and context but I'd have Mahrez as an attacking midfielder or winger.
@poetgooner @PuckVanHeel I will copy and paste this because it is insightful and brings some value to the discussion The traditional winger (1990s) In the early 1990s, some of the world’s best wingers were very one dimensional and would mainly stay wide and bamboozle defenders and deliver crosses for their team-mates. The right footed wingers would stay on the right and the left footed wingers would do likewise. Players such as Ryan Giggs, David Beckham and Luis Figo were among the best in this era. Back then, it was all about using their skill to create some space and then delivering that well-timed and accurate cross. Wingers were usually the players who were expected to take the set-pieces because they were usually the smallest players on the pitch and were regarded to be of no use at the end of crosses. The goal scoring wingers and inverted winger (late 1997-2002) This lead to a evolution in the wingers’ role with the likes Robert Pires, Rivaldo, Marc Overmars, Freddie Ljungberg, Ryan Giggs and Luis Figo leading the way. They were showing new ways of playing in the wide role in the late 1990s. No longer was the winger role just to stay wide on either flank of the pitch and support/create goalscoring chances, they were now a goal threat themselves. There was less emphasis on supporting the full back with the defensive duties but where still expected to contribute defensively. Wingers started to shifting between the right and left flank looking for which full back they could exploit. This lead to some of them having to be able to use either foot to flourish and with that was the the rebirth of the inverted winger. Rivaldo was possibly the best in his generation when it came to goals from the wing. Especially, his time at FC Barcelona were he went on to score 92 goals in 182 games. And, this was topped up by his performances in the 2002 FIFA World Cup were he scored an incredible five goals. Rivaldo was perhaps ahead of his time because he could also play the center forward role and also the inverted winger role. However, he did inspire the next generation of wingers. The flair wingers (2002-2006) In the early 2000s, the rise of the flair wingers begun and possibly the most exciting time in football history for wingers. The winners of the FIFA World Cup tournaments have always been a good indicator of where the next generation of football is going to look like. And, Brazil’s World Cup winning team was no different, it inspired the classical and goal scoring wingers to add trickery and flair to their game. It was a short and important era in football in where wingers were given more freedom to attack in any way they wish and not have to be concerned with the defensive duties as much. The set pieces were still not forgotten by the wingers and they were still scoring and assisting from these although not frequently. Players like Ricardo Quaresma, Denilson, Jay-Jay Okocha, Pavel Nedved, Ronaldinho, Robinho and even Ryan Giggs were producing moments of genius almost every week. This even inspired the “Joga Bonito” campaign lead by Nike which we got a brief glimpse to the next evolution of wingers in Cristiano Ronaldo and Ronaldinho part taking in great adverts. An era in which the legend Garrincha would have been proud of and flourished in. Ronaldinho was the king of this era and he also introduced a new way of playing as a winger. Many managers would double up on Ronaldinho in wide areas and use pacy full backs to counter his threat but he started to roam into central areas – such was his confidence and skill. He would drop deep to collect the ball and play in areas between the full backs and center backs which would inspire the next evolution of the winger. The inside forward (2006 – 2010) Ronaldinho’s influence on the game and the FIFA World Cup in 2006 played another important shift in this new evolution of the winger. It reintroduced the inside forward into the modern game. This style of play had always been in the game but many managers had preferred not to use it. For a long time, many managers felt having strikers and inside forward left the team defensively vulnerable. The modern game had become filled with teams who can counter attack at tremendous pace so it was risky to play the old 2-3-5 formation that the likes of Willie Moir, Harold Hassall and Nat Lofthouse flourished in decades before. But players like Thierry Henry, Rivaldo and even Ronaldinho showed how effective this could be in the modern game. Its was an upgrade on the inverted winger and goal scoring winger; whereas the inverted and goalscoring winger would play wide as a creator and also chip in with goals, the inside forward is the exact opposite. The inside forward does not operate in the wide areas they move in the channels between the full back and center back. Thierry Henry was ahead of his time in this respect. Years before in the Premier League during the 2003-04 season, he showed why runs coming from the wing could be near impossible to stop when done correctly. Thierry Henry many would say has no place in the history of wingers but that is not true. He played a massive role in encouraging the reemergence of the inside forward. He was more than just a striker – he was the prototype of the modern day inside forward. He would provide assists and score goals and gliding in from either flank and into central forward areas to create havoc. To this day, he still holds the record for the most assists in a single Premier League season something if he was just a striker he wouldn’t have achieved. His success would inspire the success of Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea. Jose Mourinho is a master tactician and student of the game. He noticed and capitalised on the importance of having inside forwards and with his wingers Robben, Duff and Joe Cole would dominate the English game. And with that, a complete revolution in the future of wingers in the Premier League would take place. Many teams worldwide begun to notice the dominance of English teams with these inside forwards and started to replicate that with their wingers. Top European teams started to put extra emphasises on wingers who could come in from the wide areas and score goals. None more so than Pep Guardiola’s Barcelona who were the arguably, the best club side of all time. Players like David Villa, Eto’o and Thierry Henry again would go and break goal scoring records that have previously stood for decades playing the roles of the inside forwards. The complete winger (2010-2014) Under all these changes, there was the emergence of two of the all time greats in Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi. During the next four year period, Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi would become the most complete forwards to have ever graced the game. And, an intense rivalry between the two players pushed the evolution a step further. The two players battled each other looking to better the other and differentiate from each other in competition to be crowned the world’s best. Lionel Messi under Pep Guardiola was right winger who was changed and made into playing as a false nine. This was done in order to take advantage of space in between the center backs and the midfielders. As an inside forward Messi was not using his full potential and Pep Guardiola decided to transform him into more of a modern day trequartista. This was very significant as it lead to Cristiano Ronaldo having to transform the winger role into the peak of its attacking capabilities to keep the rivalry with Messi on-going. Cristiano Ronaldo would take everything from the past decade and become an unstoppable force who would not only score but also create goals at the same time. He would perfect near every aspect of the winger role. As the years past, he lost some of the flair and trickery from his game but he would improve his efficiency which lead to his last two Ballon D’or triumphs. He inspired many modern day wingers to alter their game and try to be more than just winger or an inside forward but an all round complete winger. This has seen an emergence of the likes of Neymar, Marco Reus, Gareth Bale and Antoine Griezmann etc – a generation of players who have been greatly inspired by Ronaldo but this has left a big question mark on what’s the next step. With Cristiano Ronaldo coming to the end of his career and defences starting to learn to how to stifle these types of wingers, it won’t be long for a new evolution in the story of the winger
The above looks like a good read. I'll find some time to do that later. I can't comment on some of those names, I'd agree that most of them should be classified as wide forwards. By position they're called wingers, because they play wide, but by role I think they should be wide forwards. Take Garrincha and Jairzinho as examples. It is well recognized that in their World Cup teams ('62 and '70) they were the wide forwards, while the player on the opposite flank, played a deeper and more supportive role, tasked with building up play and getting the ball to the players higher up the pitch.
I saw this short 6 minutes debate with a bit of surprise. While I personally prefer Cole (just a better footballer to me, thus also more goals and assists in the league and Champions League) it must be said Evra started in 5 Champions League finals for three different clubs, and 11 years apart (the only others to say they also played in at least five are Maldini, Cristiano Ronaldo, Seedorf and Van der Sar). He was also solid in euro 2016 when he reached the final on home soil. Despite controversial elements in his France NT career, only Zidane, Vieira, Barthez, Thuram and Henry were more often part of a tournament squad. Have a preference for Ashley Cole but if anything the longevity argument goes to Evra here in my book.
He had a decent EC2016 but bar that I remember him being most of the time either average or mediocre with France. He was lucky enough that no other LB emerged during his time. Abidal impressed me much more in WC06. His club carreer is another story indeed.
Yes I agree, and it's one of the things making me prefer 'gun firing' Ashley Cole. Other aspects are Cole adapting well to highly offensive and highly defensive teams, and his sound awareness and positioning. The main component of citing his solid euro 2016 is showing the longevity thing. One could say Evra was part of major finals before Ashley Cole (2004 CL final), and a part after him (2015 CL final, euro 2016 final). The window between his first top two finish and last as a starter (2003 - 2016) is a larger one as the one of Ashley Cole (2002 - 2011). He was for a longer period of time playing for a close championship contender, and has consequently more ESM selections as a result. Nevertheless, I've a preference for Cole and *think* he was of a higher importance for his side (closer to being one of the five best players of his team as well imho) although for a left-back this is still rather limited in the end how much influence one can have.
To illustrate this: This isn't fully watertight I've been told, especially for the goalkeepers it is flawed, but Cristiano moves on a per minute base to the top (just as RvP until 2009-10 moves to top five/top three, btw).
For me it is more about doing well in different contexts and circumstances than preferring the regularity of league football or tensity of international football perse. The reason why I downgraded Schmeichel a bit (from #3 to #4) is he has only five years at a top team from september 1994 onward, and I think a size of his peak was before this (including his phenomenal euro 1992). He also increasingly started to make *big* gaffes in the last two seasons of his tenure. Thus he hasn't longevity and his peak window gets maligned. A Peter Schmeichel howler gifts Barnsley an equaliser in the FA Cup Fifth round, 1998. @90sPlayerspic.twitter.com/cY7kBhTsux— 90s Football (@90sfootball) June 30, 2019 Here another one at 4:30 a season later. David de Gea has had a very high 'saves to goals conceded' ratio and was especially great between 2013-14 and 2017-18 (five seasons in a row) but the lack of performance at continental and (even more) international level, and his flaws with the feet and the traditional job of a goalkeeper (also applies to Casillas imho, who relied heavily on his reflexes) should count against him. Pretty much every great goalkeeper had their weaker phases, but for example VdS at Juventus still has the (by far) highest clean sheets ratio of anyone with at least 50 Serie A games (btw he's another one who gets downgraded a big chunk, from his default position, by the usual suspects like @Perú FC and @comme). Some more info: https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2543201.html https://the18.com/soccer-news/goalkeepers-most-career-clean-sheets-soccer-history
Yes I think so. On the plus side though, in the few trophies DDG won he had a positive contribution while Casillas won some things at the beginning (2000-2002) and end of his top level career (2013-2015) with him having a negative part to play (that 2014CL howler). One of the reasons for me to place VdS #2 (which with Casillas dropping down is one or two places higher than the default) is his complete skill-set (although he hasn't that intimidating and big presence of a Schmeichel or Kahn; none of his compatriots ever had), and also he's the only goalkeeper to feature in 5 European Cup finals (from 1955 onward), making 29 saves in the three finals he lost. Something that also stands out is during his 2008-09 clean-sheet record both Evra and Rio Ferdinand missed in many games (7 and 8 games respectively during the run) and there was no set right-back (the 33/34 year old Neville and 18 year old Rafael alternating), and he was relatively busy compared to other goalkeepers in their record runs. Plus also a number of other things like that European Championships clean sheets record (not always with great defenders).
Where would Barthez rank according to you ? (I know he was not included in the FFT list, just like Laurent Blanc).
Number three to number five in my idea. Difficult to say with Neuer still active. I'd have Barthez above Casillas or Kahn personally.