BigSoccer's Players of the Season: 1967

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/bigsoccers-players-of-the-season-discussion-thread.2097013/

    This thread will cover the 1966-67 season for Europe based clubs/players and the 1967 season for South American based clubs/players.

    European Season Parameters

    All European based players will have the 1966-67 European Cup/FairsCup/Cup Winners Cup as part of this season.

    For most European based teams the 1966 Intercontinental Cup is part of this season, not the 1967 edition as it is player in the Fall. Real Madrid will have the drubbing to Penarol on their ledger this season, Celtic's hard fought/controversial loss will be part of their resume next season.

    Domestic seasons for almost all European countries start in the Fall of 1966 and end in the Spring of 1967. Two major countries run on a different schedule at this time, the Soviet Union and Hungary. They both observe a season similar to South America beginning in the early spring of 1967 and finishing near the end of the year. Because of this players based in the these leagues will have different international matches as part of this season.

    Players based in most European leagues will have international matches from September 1966 to July 1967 as part of this season.

    Players based in Soviet Union or Hungary will have internationals from March 1967 to the end of December 1967 as part of this season.

    The two different schedules make things a little awkward in Europe to match seasons. For example La Liga 1966-67 season qualifies the winner for the 1967-68 European Cup, the the corresponding 1967 domestic season for Hungarian teams qualifies the winner for the 1968-69 European Cup.

    But the biggest events of each season occur in late spring or summer for all players from either schedule, specifically European Cup/FC/CWC final rounds and major summer internationals and tournament finals match the seasons in the I have matched them. If there was a World Cup in 1967 it would be played in June/July. This would be after the traditional European season and during the middle of the Soviet/Hungarian. Player selection for this tournament would be based on player form from the 1966-67 European season and the 1967 Soviet/Hungary season. Likewise finals for the EC/FC/CWC would be in May/June, again linking the culmination 1966-67 European season and the middle of the 1967 Soviet/Hungary season.

    Season for Most European Teams
    1966-67 domestic competitions
    1966-67 EC/FC/CWC competitions
    1966 Intercontinental Cup
    International matches between September 66 and July 67

    Season for Soviet/Hungary (also a couple other smaller and unlikely to be relevant leagues)
    1967 domestic competitions
    1966-67 EC/FC/CWC competitions (all matches even though some will fall in the previous season)
    1967 Intercontinental Cup (if it was relevant and teams from either of these leagues qualified)
    International matches between March 67 and December 67)

    South American Season Parameters

    The South American Season runs on a similar schedule to Soviet/Hungary season described above. Domestic competitions run from early in 1967 (February/March) until basically the end of the year. Again the link between South American and European seasons is the major international tournaments in the summer must match. If there was a World Cup in 1967 it would be played in June/July. This would be after the traditional European season and during the middle of the South American. Player selection for this tournament would be based on player form from the 1966-67 European season and the 1967 South American season.

    The 1967 Libertadores takes place mostly in the first half of the season running parallel to Argentina's first half of a split season (Metropolitano) and parallel to the Rio-Sau Paulo and Roberto Gomes Pedrosa tournaments in Brazil. The second half of the year includes the Nacional tournament in Argentina and the Brazilian State championships and Brazilian Championship (Taca Brasil) in this current format. The simpler seasons of Uruguay, Chile, Peru, and Paraguay's season all fall within the 1967 calendar year.

    The 1967 Intercontinental Cup is part of this season for Racing. The 1966 IC victory for Penarol was part of the previous season.

    Internationals are slightly confusing. Major international tournaments in South America (South American Championship or Copa America based on the era) usually take place at the conclusion of the club season. In many cases the tournaments occurs over the new year or right after the new year. In this year the 1967 South American Championships are not a part of this season. They begin in January of 1967, immediately after the 1966 club seasons ended, and the tournament ends before any of the 1967 domestic competitions begin. All selections of squads were based on form in the 1966 club seasons. Internationals for this season occur roughly between February 1967 and February 1968. This is a light international season for South American countries.
     
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  2. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I will post summaries of how different teams preformed during their seasons later, and hopefully we can start a list of nominees and begin accumulating relevant sources.
     
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  3. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    It will be nice, someone can update a list with links to each season
     
  4. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I am going to post a roundup of different teams who had high achievement this season to help inform possible player selections.

    South America

    Brazilian clubs: There was not one dominant club in Brazil. Looking at Sau Paulo based teams first, which appear to be the strongest of the bunch. Santos narrowly beat out Sau Paulo to win the Paulista and were the top scoring team in the tournament. Santos did not make it to the final group (4 of the 15 teams) in the new Roberto Gomes Pedrosa Tournament. Palmeiras placed a relatively distant fourth in the Paulista but won the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa and the Taca Brasil, both of the nation wide competitions this season. Corinthians placed third in the Pauista. Their best moment was winning by far the most points in the first round of the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa before finishing third in the final group. Sao Paulo placed a close second to Santos in the Paulista and did not make it out of the first group in the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa .

    In Rio the teams do not appear as strong, none of the five teams in the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa make the final group, and honestly non were even close, with every team finishing with negative goal differential. Botafogo and Bangu seperate themselves from the other teams in the Carioca and Botafogo wins tournament. Botafogo losses to Atletico Mineiro in the Quarterfinals of the Taca Brasil.

    Cruzeiro wins their state league over Atletico Mineiro after winning a playoff after the teams finished even on points. Cruzeiro barely missed the second round of the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa. They fell disappointingly in the Taca Brasil semifinal to Nautical and failed to defend their titles as Brazilian Champions. Cruzeiro also had a good run in the Libertadores making the semifinal and were 1 point away from making the final.

    The teams from Rio Grande do Sul had a good season, with both Internacional and Gremio making the final group in the Roberto Gomes Pedrosa with Internacional finishing second. Gremio beats out Internacional for the state league by three points and makes the semifinal of the Taca Brasil to Palmeiras after a third playoff game is needed.

    My rough rankings of the best teams in Brazil is muddled but would look something like this for the 1967 season.

    1) Palmeiras

    2-4) Cruzeiro, Gremio, Santos

    5-9) Internacional, Sau Paulo, Corinthians, Botafogo, Atletico Mineiro

    In Argentina Estudiantes win the the Metropolitano beating out Racing in the final. Independiente wins the Nacional tournament beating Estudiantes by two points. Racing falls to the bottom half of third tournament as they were distracted by other competitions. Racing wins the Copa Libertadores knocking out River Plate, Universitario, Colo-Colo, and Nacional on the way. They also win the violent/controversial edition of the intercontinental cup over three games vs Celtic by winning the two of the three played on South American soil. River Plate and Boca Juniors are both disappointing domestically while River Plate makes the Libertadores semifinal.

    In Uruguay Penarol beats Nacional for the title by a comfortable margin. Both play in the Libertadores. Nacional makes a great run to the final, overcoming Cruzeiro and Penarol in the semifinal group. Penarol gets a pass to the semifinal as last year champions where they fail to advance.

    In Peru Universitario win the league comfortably and have a strong performance in the Libertadores making the semifinal where they finish even with points on Racing and miss out on the final after losing a playoff to Racing 2-1.

    Universidad de Chile wins the Chile league while third place Colo-Colo makes the Libertadores semifinal.

    Guarani wins the Paraguay league but fails to make it out of the first group in the Libertadores.

    On the international side of South American football teams play a light schedule and the big squad have relatively disappointing showings. Brazil play four games, three vs Uruguay and one vs Chile. In the three games vs Uruguay some new players are given a chance compared to the team from the 1966 WC (Tostao, Wilson Piazza, Direcu Lopes, Roberto Dias, Everaldo). All three games are played in Uruguay and are all draws. The games played in Chile is won 1-0 with a mostly Rio based team (Manga, Caju, Gerson, Paulo Henrique).

    Argentina has a disappointing run of internationals playing four times, losing three and drawing one. They are on the road for all games and lose to Chile 0-1, Mexico 1-2, and Chile 1-3. The tie Paraguay 1-1. The teams called for Argentina are missing the top players from 1966 (Artime, Mas, Onego, Marzolini) but is not quite a B side either with top players at their position still present in some positions (Perfumo, Albrecht, Bernao, Gatti).

    Uruguay has a decent season with the three home draws vs Brazil and two wins in Peru. Pedro Rocha scores three times in the games vs Brazil and twice vs Peru.

    Chile has the two wins vs Argentina and the one loss vs Brazil. They also went to Europe losing a 5-4 thriller vs Hungary and getting beaten handily by the Soviets 4-1. A potent offense led by Pedro Arya, Carlos Reinoso, Leonel Sanchez, and Alberto Fouilloux led to the wins vs Argentina and the goal scoring explosion vs Hungary, but the defense is lacking with Figueroa unavailable playing abroad.

    Peru losses their only two games played at home vs Uruguay while Paraguay only plays once drawing at home vs Argentina.

    Overall not a lot of impressive teams from South America this season.
     
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  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Europe

    English Clubs: Man U win the league by four points, with Nottingham Forest, Tottenham, and Leeds all within five points of the leaders. Liverpool , last years champions, finish 5th. Tottenham win the FA Cup with fellow league runners up Leeds and Nottingham making the semifinal. In Europe results are mixed for English teams. Liverpool is poor in the European Cup, needing an away goal to get past a Romanian side in the first round before getting drilled by an up and coming Ajax in the second round. In the Fairs Cup Burnley, Leeds and West Brom all participate. All the teams make it to at least third round where West Brom goes out to Bologna. Burnley loses in the quarterfinals to Eintracht Frankfurt, and Leeds makes it all the way to the final losing to Dinamo Zagreb. Everton goes out in the second round of the Cup Winners Cup to Real Zaragoza.

    Spanish Clubs: Real Madrid maintain their league dominance winning the league five points clear of second place Barcelona. Last years champions Atletico Madrid finish 4th. 6th place Valencia are joint top scorers of the competition and win the Copa Del Rey. A little of the shine is taken off Madrid this season after winning the European Cup last year. They get drilled home and away vs Penarol early in the season for the Intercontinental Cup and go out in the quarterfinals of the European Cup, although they had a hard draw facing German champions 1860 Munich and winning 3-2 agg. before facing Internazionale in the quarters losing 3-0. Atletico Madrid go out in the second round vs Yugoslavian side Vojvodina. Sevilla and Atletico Bilbao both go out in the first round of the Fairs Cup to Yugoslavian and Romanian competition. Valencia are better making the third round before going out to Leeds. Real Zaragoza have a decent run in the CWC making the quarters going out to Rangers on a coin toss. Overall a disappointing season for Spanish clubs in European competition.

    Italian Clubs: Juventus wins the league by a single point over Internazionale, last years winners. Bologna and Napoli follow in the table, and mid table AC Milan wins the Italian Cup. Inter have another great run in the European Cup making the final and defeating the Soviet, Hungarian, Spanish, and Bulgarian champions facing no easy sides. Celtic overpowers them in the final. Napoli, Juventus and Bologna all enter the Fairs Cup. All three sides make at least the third round where Napoli goes out to Burnley. Juventus and Bologna both go out in the quarters. Bologna cruelly goes out in a coin toss vs Leeds. Fiorentina losses in the first round of the CWC.

    German Clubs: The German league had little separation at the top with 6 teams six points or less from the leaders. Eintracht Braunschweig win the league, last years winners 1860 Munich are second. Bayern Munich finished 6th in the league but thrived in cup competitions winning the German Cup and the Cup Winners Cup. Munich 1860 goes out in the second round of the EC to Real Madrid. Eintracht Frankfurt makes it to the semifinals of the FC, other German entrants went out in the first round.

    Ajax win the Dutch league and cup double and knock out English champions Liverpool in the EC in grand fashion, but fall somewhat disappointingly in the next round vs Dukla Prague.

    Yugoslavian sides have a strong season in Europe. Vojvodina knock out the Austrian champions and Alteltico Madrid in the EC before going out by one goal vs Celtic. Dinamo Zagreb wins the FC defeating Juventus, Leeds, and Eintracht Frankfurt on the way. Upstart side Sarajevo wins the league.

    Scotland has a famously strong season with Celtic winning all domestic competitions and the European Cup. Kilmarnock makes the FC semifinal and Rangers make the CWC final.

    Bulgarian sides have a good season with CSKA making the EC semifinal going out to Inter after a third match playoff. Salvia Sofia make the semifinal of the CWC. Botev Plovdiv win the league.

    Saint-Étienne win the first of four consecutive leagues, but no notable French performances in Europe.

    Benfica return as league champions this season in Portugal. Last years champions Sporting get trounced in the first round by Vasas. Benfica are forgettable in the FC.

    Dynamo Kiev win the Soviet league and no teams have major European runs.

    Ferencvaros wins the Hungarian league and Hungarian teams have decent runs in Europe but none especially deep.

    Summary of international results for countries later.
     
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  6. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Tom, you miss Copa América, here.

    Then, some interesting Intl. club tournaments and club Tours
     
  7. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Check the first post for info about excluding the South American Championship. It seems like it should be part of the previous season to me. It concludes before any domestic competitions from this season begin, and is right after the conclusion of the 1966 domestic seasons. Do you agree with this assessment?

    Would be very interested to here about the club tours and international club tourneys.
     
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  8. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    European International Overview

    Strong International Seasons

    Hungary: 5-0-1, important wins vs YUG 1-0, vs NET 2-1, at AUS 3-1, vs DDR 3-1. Secure passage to the next stage of Euro Qualification and defeat a number of good sides. Only loss was at DDR 1-0. The excellent attack is intact from the 1966 WC but there is some turnover in defense and midfield.

    Soviet Union: 12-2-2, important wins at SCO 2-0, at FRA 4-2, vs AUS 4-3, at POL 1-0, vs POL 2-1, at BUL 2-1, at CHI 4-1. Record is padded by an easy Euro Qualifying group which they advance from. Also had an impressive 2-2 draw against England in London. Beaten handily by the Dutch 3-1 in Rottendam.

    England: 4-1-1, important wins at NIR 2-0, 5-1 vs Wales, 2-0 vs SPA, at AUS 1-0. Winning streak is broken be Scotland's famous win in London in a thrilling game. Strong start to qualifying for Euro 68.

    Italy: 4-1-0 important wins vs SOV 1-0, at ROM 1-0. Good start to qualifying in an easy group and a good win vs the Soviets. Good recovery from a disastrous 1966 World Cup.

    Mixed International Season

    Belgium: 4-0-1, important wins vs FRA 2-1, vs NET 1-0. The wins were relatively easy, and they eventually do not make it out of their Euro qualifying group, which starts trending the wrong way with the 3-1 loss to Poland this season.

    Bulgaria: 4-1-2, important wins vs YUG 6-1, at SWE 2-0. They make a good start to Euro Qualifying this season and have an eye popping 6-1 win vs YUG.

    Czechoslovakia: 4-1-1, important wins at NET 2-1, at IRE 2-0. Had a good start to Euro Qualifying but do not end up making it. Also get a 0-0 draw in London.

    West Germany: 5-0-1, important wins vs BUL 1-0. Beat up on patsies, only loss is a crucial qualifying game vs YUG which will set them up to not qualify next season.

    Scotland: 2-1-1, important wins at ENG 3-2. Big win at England giving them a chance to qualify, but drawing with Wales is costly. Also outclassed at home losing 2-0 to the Soviets.

    Yugoslavia: 4-0-3, important wins vs CZE 1-0, vs GER 1-0. Win vs the Germans is huge leap towards qualifying, bizarre huge loss to Bulgaria 6-1.

    Spain: 2-2-1, important wins vs IRE 2-0, vs TUR 2-0. On way to qualifying in easy group.

    Poor International Seasons

    Austria: 1-1-4

    France: 2-0-4

    Netherlands: 2-1-5, poor start to qualifying in a tough group.

    Portugal: 1-2-1, Disappointing come down from the world cup, lose at home to Sweden to open Euro Qualifying.
     
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  9. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #9 Tom Stevens, Feb 17, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
    I am going to start the list of nominees. Everyone feel free to copy it into your own post and add and players you think are worthy of consideration for the 23. I am going to start with the Celtic players who I think deserve consideration. I think it will be very interesting to see which ones make it outside of Johnstone who seems to be the one sure thing.

    Nominees
    Ronnie Simpson (Celtic, Scotland)
    Tommy Gemmell (Celtic, Scotland)
    Billy McNeill (Celtic, Scotland)
    Bobby Murdoch (Celtic, Scotland)
    Jimmy Johnstone (Celtic, Scotland)
    Bobby Lennox (Celtic, Scotland)

    Left off Auld and Wallace even though I think they have some merit, but I can't imagine putting them ahead of any of the Celtic players I did list and I can't imagine having six or more Celtic players to the 23.
     
  10. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I posted this in another thread, but these were the votes from the Ballon d'Or along with the rationale of the voters for 1967:

    Austria – Ferry Wimmer

    1. Gemmel 2. Muller 3. Farkas 4. Charlton 5. Kindvall

    It may have never been as difficult to make an opinion as in 1967. There is no longer a big star like Di Stefano, Kopa, Puskas. I think it is important to take into account the international competitions.

    From there, I make Gemmel the number 1 of the year, for all that he brought to the Celtic of Glasgow, champion of Europe, and even taking into account the woes of the team Scottish team in International Cup.

    Same consideration for Muller, Bayern's number 1 striker from Munich. The Hungarian Farkas may not be as complete as his prestigious leader Albert, but he scored ten goals in a row in three international matches. It's something.

    Charlton remains a sure value, while Kindvall is one of the best European scorers. He deserves to go among the big ones.

    Belgium – Jacques Lecoq

    1. Beckenbauer 2. Eusebio 3. Charlton 4. Johnstone 5. Albert

    Although the German journalists prefer Muller, I place Beckenbauer at the forefront of European football. He has restored the valour to the role of the defender which had been lost through the sweeper system. His intelligence when in possession of the ball was fully expressed in the final of the Cup Winners’ Cup

    Eusebio and Bobby Charlton led the list last year. Their value did not diminish even though they did not have the occasion to express it fully as in 1966 in the World Cup.

    I would place Johnstone second had he not tainted his superb European Cup performances by the unfortunate incidents of the Intercontinental final. Discipline and self-control must also play a part in this ranking. Finally Albert is a clearly a player of great value, confirmed by the recent unanimous vote of the Hungarian journalists.

    Bulgaria – Georges Miltchev

    1. Albert 2. Beckenbauer 3. Facchetti 4. Kotkov 5. Bjeregard


    Albert, the leader of the game of the Hungarian champion Ferencvaros and the Magyar eleven, has so far made a timid appearance in the traditional rankings of the end of the season. And yet he is not a European specialist who has made homage his omnipresence on the ground, the finesse and the intelligence of his game. A charming goalscorer, Albert received the supreme consecration, by the South American themselves, also for us it is undoubtedly the best European play today.

    The number 2 comes back from right to rangy and elegant football brain oust-Germany Beckenbauer. Great revelation of the last World Cup, Beckenbauer still dominates by its class the football of the Rhine.


    Facchetti continues to be a pearl of the terrible Calcio. After a short eclipse, he is new to the forefront of Italian football and has his place in any European ranking of the best footballer of the year.


    Kotkov is the Bulgarian revelation of the season. He not only hoisted his club (Lokomotiv Sofia) at the head of the championship at the end of the matches go, but regained his place in the national team thanks to its powerful rate of play. Kotkov, with its 16 goals marks in 16 matches, takes place rightly among the best European playmakers.


    Czechoslovakia – Rudolf Dvorak


    1. Charlton 2. Muller 3. Albert 4. Eusebio 5. Streltsov

    I think like my colleagues in Prague, that Bobby Charlton has lost nothing of its value during the year 1967. He therefore deserves to keep the first place in Europe for his influence in Manchester United and in the English national team. Charlton is for us the best player on the continent. The West German Muller arrives at the top. It is an extraordinary puncher in a German football where the defences do not make any gift to the attacker Albert, Eusebio, and the returning Sovetique Streltsov have then the favor of the main Czech critics

    Denmark – Paul Prip Andersen

    1. Beckenbauer 2. Albert 3. Pirri 4. Gemmel 5. Muller

    Beckenbauer is capable of everything. He attacks as well as he defends, with an exceptional elegance and a great purity of ball control. Bayern Munich deserved its victory in the European Cup Winners’ Cup.

    I prefer him to Albert who remains out of the ordinary in attack but seems to fall in shape... Which does not prevent him from being infinitely spectacular and very useful. I'm giving Pirri my number three. He is an ideal man for the 4-2-4, a master asset of Real, he deserves a greater reputation.

    East Germany – Horst Braunlich

    1. Albert 2. Charlton 3. Riva 4. Van Himst 5. Szoltsik

    Albert deserves first place. It's a contructif play of the foreground. He made the new Hungarian team and even developed all the qualities of a world-class footballer. He is both Bozsik and Puskas simultaneously. Number 2 has to be Bobby Charlton for his very continental game. He's a smart, technical football player.

    Third place could go to Riva. His direct attacking game and vigorous play (he's the opposite of Bobby Charlton) has a very English style, making him one of the most spectacular attackers.

    Van Himst has undergone a famous evolution. The goal hunter became a complete footballer. The Polish Szoltysik, 1.62 m, is the smallest of the international-class men, but his perfect technique, his vivacity and his speed make him one of the best Europeans.

    England – Brian Glanville

    1. Best 2. Johnstone 3. Beckenbauer 4. Hurst 5. Bychevetz

    Best, the small winger of Manchester United and Northern Ireland, has become the complete footballer. He is a clairvoyant, a great dribbler, courageous, obstinate, capable of everything.

    He deserves the number 1 slot in front of Johnstone, the most exciting player of Celtic conqueror of the European Cup. Beckenbauer is unequal... but what class. Hurst’s ability has been confirmed since the World Cup. Bychevetz is the great revelation of the year. That man will go far, very far.

    France – Jacques Ferran

    1. Tchislenko 2. Albert 3. Best 4. Johnstone 5. De Felipe

    Chislenko is the scorer number 1 of the best USSR team of all time, that of 1967 (two defeats in 15 matches). He has, for his part, succeeded 1 goals. Albert continued to reign over the Hungarian attackers and made Ferencvaros an indisputable champion.

    Best and Johnstone, pocket British attackers, have developed in Manchester and Celtic.

    De Felipe, finally, has remarkably held the defense of a Real Madrid still excellent.

    Greece – Evangelos Fountoukidis

    1. Charlton 2. Albert 3. Beckenbauer 4. Johnstone 5. Riva

    I had made Bobby Charlton the best footballer 66. I consider that he remains as brilliant and efficient and that he deserves to keep the his position at the head of the big European stars.

    But I think we also have to pay homage to the exceptional play of the Hungarian Albert just as it is necessary to distinguish the race of Beckenbauer, the tone of Johnstone and the stubbornness of Riva the best attacker has my eyes of the terrible Calcio.

    Hungary – Laszlo Lukacs

    1. Albert 2. Johnstone 3. Muller 4. Charlton 5. Lubanski

    Few footballers keep their exceptional qualities as long as Florian Albert. He has been at the top for eight years and remains the incomparable conductor of Ferencvaros and the Hungarian national selection. Albert is an out-of-class game leader but also a director since he has achieved 28 goals for his club. This is the ideal contemporary forward.

    After Albert, I place the Scot Johnstone, a winger with extraordinary qualities, able to prize open the super-defences. As for Muller, the new Seeler of German football deserves a place in the sun.

    Italy – Aldo Bardelli

    1. Eusebio 2. Ball 3. Gemmel 4. Tchislenko 4. Riva

    The striker is nowadays a rare gem. It's why I class Eusebio in the first place. He remains the most effective and spectacular European striker, one of the few attackers capable of forcing the Cattenaccio.

    Ball is for me the best defender of Great Britain (does he mean Gemmel?). I consider Tchislenko has its place among the big five of 67, just like Riva the most effective front man on the peninsula.

    Luxembourg – Unspecfied

    1. Albert 2. Johnstone 3. Beckenbauer 4. Farkas 5. Pilot

    This ranking may seem unusual. But it represents the triumphant youth of High football has its highest echelon. We know what is in Eusebio or in Charlton, but do we have the right to ignore the extraordinary individual or collective performances of these boys who come to take place in the firmament of international football?

    First Albert, because he is at the head of a team of Ferencvaros, well close to revive the great Hungarian era. Master to play, he has all the great qualities to be the equal of the greatest, those who have marked the history.

    Johnstone, because he personifies the health of football Scotland, unfortunate but in progress. His speed, his shots, his dribbling, his crosses, make it one of the last real wingers.

    Beckenbauer, because it is in certain value, yet he deserves better, given his class, than a place in defence. It's the spice of a German team that, with him, sometimes knows how to be genial.

    Netherlands – Anton Witkamp

    1. Albert 2. Charlton 3. Johnstone 4. Eusebio 5. Cruyff

    Because he is the brilliant successor of all the prestigious Hungarian football artists, because he has total influence on his club team as well as on his national selection, because he is the most balanced footballer of the moment, I consider that Florian Albert deserves the 1967 golden ball.

    But I have long hesitated to place him in front of Bobby Charlton who has lost absolutely nothing of his qualities during the year. Johnstone himself, took a place of choice among the great European attackers, just like my compatriot Cruyff that I place immediately behind Eusebio.

    Northern Ireland (actually Republic, he was a writer for the Irish Times in Dublin) – Dermot Ashmore

    1. Best 2. Johnstone 3. Gemmel 4. Charlton 5. Eusebio

    Best is for me the best European attacker. He has all the qualities of Stanley Matthews and is a more fearsome scorer. Johnstone and Gemmel were the great artisans of Glasgow Celtic’s success.

    I believe that Bobby Charlton, while having had a quieter year than the previous one, is still in an irreplaceable figure in the Manchester United team and in the eleven of England.

    Same reasoning for Eusebio who continues to make the rain and the sunshine for Benfica and in the team of Portugal.


    Poland – Kasimir Gryzewski

    1. Charlton 2. Albert 3. Eusebio 4. Gemmel 5. Beckenbauer

    In a football or it is really difficult to get a very fair idea of the values, it is more reasonable, in my opinion, to be based on the class demonstrated for a few years. That's why, after consulting my journalist friends in Warsaw, I keep Bobby Charlton in first place, because he has lost nothing of his class. Same thing for Albert and Eusebio. In home of Celtic deserves to be quoted. I opt for Gemmel who cost Inter a lot. Finally, I mention the talent of Beckenbauer in a championship without mercy.


    Portugal – Couto E Santos

    1. Albert 2. Mazzola 3. Beckenbauer 4. Lubanski 5. Augusto

    Albert has confirmed, throughout this year, its very great value. If Hungary has a redoubtable offensive power, it is because it has a man like Albert, smart play, exceptional scorer, true magician of football. His dribble and his play of feints are worth gold. Inter lost big this year, but Mazzola still proves that he was a very high class player and the line of Italian celebrities of the pass. As for Beckenbauer, if his name has not been seen too much in the newspapers, it is that the internationals did not permit him. But he remains an exceptional footballer.

    Romania – Aurel Neagu

    1. Johnstone 2. Muller 3. Albert 4. Byschovetz 5. Combin

    I have chosen Johnstone, because the Celtic winger is an ideal high-tech home that completes a remarkable technique with a flowing vitality. I clase behind it the West German Muller, a goal man like there are not many on the mainland. I think Albert remains one of the most briliante footballer of the moment in a team where he has a considerable influence. Byshovets is a great revelation, perhaps the best Soviet in the power of these last six years. Finally, I consider that it is necessary to make a place a Combin that makes its place in the sun in Italy in a difficult role.

    Soviet Union – Sovietsky Sport

    1. Streltsov 2. Gemmel 3. Albert 4. Muller 5. Lubanski

    The drafting of Sovietsky Sport believes that Streltsov has found the plentitude of its means. He was (for her) not only the best Soviet of the year 1967, but the best European striker by the plenitude of his football. Sovietsky Sport considers that the Scottish rear Gemmel has been the main artisan of Celtic success in the European Cup and that he has a style anticonventionel always axis towards the attack. Finally, Sovietsky Sport holds a render homage to the talent of Albert, the leader of a most elegant orchestra of European football.

    Spain – Andres Merce Varela

    1. Eusebio 2. Rivera 3. Beckenbauer 4. Tchislenko 5. Charlton

    Eusebio continues to maintain his European supremacy. His imagination, his class, his sense of improvisation, his powerful, precise and unexpected shooting allow him to occupy an exceptional place the delights of Benfica and Da Portugal.

    Behind Eusebio, I place Rivera who has ignited the resurrection of AC Milan. Then I rank Beckenbauer who now the authentic odds of football in a championship of strength. Tchislenko is the Latin imagination, in the ungrateful collective work of the Soviets. Bobby Charlton remains the best representative of British football.

    Sweden – Wolf Lyberg

    1. Albert 2. Beckenbauer 3. Pirri 4. Gemmel 5. Hurst

    Albert held his role perfectly in the Hungarian team and Ferencvaros. He deserves an individual title which is master of team play. He is one of the greatest attackers of the last ten years. I then put three defenders in my list, three symbols of modern football. First, Beckenbauer for a final sensational of cup of cups, then Pirri, outstanding worker and good shooter, then Gemmel, the new Facchetti. As for Hurst, he is for me the first British striker.

    Switzerland – Raymond Pittet

    1. Johnstone 2. Mazzola 3. Farkas 4. Pirri 5. Riva

    I rank in the Johnstone order, which is largely in the success of Celtic, Mazzola for his achievements in matches that qualify Inter for the final of the European Cup, Farkas for his contribution to the Hungarian team and the Vasas of Budapest , Pirri, basic stone of the present Real, finally Riva who has the merit of imposing itself regularly, lean the strengthened defenses of Calcio. On the other hand, I would like to give a mention to Murdoch, Chalmers, Gemmel, Auld, Macneil, Baker, Law, Van Himst, Lubanski, Libuda, Byschovets, Blaettler, Kunzil, Sabo and Bobby Charlton.

    Turkey – Samim Var

    1. Best 2. Johnstone 3. Overath 4. Byschovets 5. Albert

    I make Best the number one, because it is always decisive, as well for Manchester United as for the team of Northern Ireland. It is fast, enterprising, collective, spectacular and dangerous where it needs to be. Behind him I place Johnstone, the man who has the most personality in the Celtic eleven. Overath then comes for the quality and the regularity of his game. Byshovets is the revelation Sovetique. His influence will go on growing. Finally, I class Albert, symbol of Hungarian football, although it seems to me in less good condition than the preceding years.

    West Germany - Hans Blickensdorfer

    1. Albert 2. Haller 3. Cebinac 4. Charlton 5. Van Himst

    With football becoming more and more a ruthless war against the stars, I hesitated before giving the first place to Albert, conductor of the play of Ferencvaros and Hungary, who continues to honour the great Magyar tradition, simultaneously cunning, elegant and effective.

    However, it must be admitted that he has an easier life than the attackers of Italian football. That is why I place Haller second, who proves in Bologna that it is always possible to penetrate a rock solid defence with exceptional qualities.

    The name of my third choice will surprise a lot of people because it is Cebinac. He is the Yugoslavian right winger of FC Nuremberg. The fantastic advantage of the leader of the Bundesliga is due in large part to the class of this small winger of 29 years, the strongest in Europe in my opinion.

    Yugoslavia – Jovan Velickovic

    1. Charlton 2. Eusebio 3. Beckenbauer 4. Greaves 5. Albert

    For personal taste, I take into account in this ranking of the complete players who do not switch to the sometimes sordid realities of modern football. You have to keep a certain amount of romance nowadays. I am done porte towards the NE players for football, which one did not learn much, towards those who consider football as a sport and not as a science. From these considerations, I believe that Bobby Charlton deserves to retain the first place acquired last year in front of the terrible goalscorer that is Eusebio.
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #11 PuckVanHeel, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019

    Since the discussion is already moving to a certain direction and there is a bit of a history of downrating him (e.g. 19th best World Cup player ever), I'll state the case and sometimes obvious here, which I will not do for every season;


    He didn't register among the Ballon d'Or "establishment", which is somewhat strange, since the same voters rated Ajax as 5th/6th best team in Europe, but was on the radar of some prominent others, for example (and I try to show some variation in assessment):

    Miroir Football
    Kicker
    'Neutral' Romanian international survey (end of 1966 calender year)
    Glanville mentioned him in the affirmative by August 1967, though not among the 50 names yet
    World Soccer article from November 1967 (published October)

    Here a WS article from 1965, shortly before the boom (the intro + conclusion might be sufficient)


    He indeed scored a career-best 41 goals (no penalties) and had also ~ 20 assists on top for his club (at the very least 15). Several Spanish sources (including wikipedia) claim he was crowned as the overall top European marskman for that season, but I have never seen a domestic source stating this. For the domestic player of the year he was narrowly beaten by goalkeeper Graafland.

    There are (maybe) two major concerns.

    Although he was already dropping deep and such, per many foreign reports (WS), an argument can be made he was still closer to a Thierry Henry in style (in most matches) than anything else. On the other hand, Ajax was far removed from their best, in personnel and execution.

    The second concern is the quality of the league at the time. To cover that one has to look at what he did against the stronger opponents and in a foreign setting.


    Against the domestic top five teams he did this:

    1966/1967
    11. 25/09/1966 --- Ajax - Sparta 5:0 1 goal
    12. 30/10/1966 --- Go Ahead - Ajax 2:3 2 goals
    13. 13/11/1966 --- Ajax - Feyenoord 5:0 2 goals 1 assist
    14. 12/02/1967 --- Sparta - Ajax 2:1 1 goal
    15. 19/03/1967 --- Ajax - Go Ahead 4:1 1 goal 2 assist
    16. 27/03/1967 --- Feyenoord - Ajax 1:1
    17. 02/04/1967 --- Ajax - Feyenoord 3:1 1 goal [Dutch Cup, 1st round]
    18. 15/05/1967 --- Ajax - ADO 5:3 2 goals 1 assist
    19. 28/05/1967 --- Go Ahead - Ajax 1:2 (a.e.t.) 1 goal 1 assist [Dutch Cup, sf]
    Note: assisters partially known/verified

    Generally he was okay to excellent there (not a noticeable drop-off at least), even in the Feyenoord match where he didn't register. As always, it is very much the question how the team would perform without him. The championship of 1965-66 was the 3rd league title in 20 years (7 years gap), and the cup of 1967 the 2nd in 25 years. A year earlier in 1965-66 he wasn't always playing but made a big difference (in results) compared to not playing.


    In the European Cup:

    1966/1967
    1. 28/09/1966 --- Ajax - Besiktas (TUR) 2:0 [EC-1, 1st round]
    2. 05/10/1966 --- Besiktas (TUR) - Ajax 1:2 [EC-1, 1st round] 1 assist
    3. 07/12/1966 --- Ajax - Liverpool (ENG) 5:1 [EC-1, 2nd round] 1 goal
    4. 14/12/1966 --- Liverpool (ENG) - Ajax 2:2 [EC-1, 2nd round] 2 goals
    5. 01/03/1967 --- Ajax - Dukla Prague (TCH) 1:1 [EC-1, quarter-final]
    6. 08/03/1967 --- Dukla Prague (TCH) - Ajax 2:1 [EC-1, quarter-final]

    I'd personally say he was good to excellent in the first five matches, and then mediocre in the sixth. Though even there he had a clear-cut penalty denied, the team conceded a "controversial" penalty themselves (per above WS report) and with a 87th minute 'unforced' own goal eliminating the team (that player never played another match again).

    Liverpool was of course one of the very strongest collectives in Europe, Dukla Prague was not. Ultimately though, those things can happen. The Czechoslovakian league was 7th in the UEFA ranking (very close to #5) and the average ClubElo of all the fourteen CZE teams was 9th in Europe. Is this more damning than a first round exit against St Etienne in 1969 (by Bayern), for instance, very arguably not. But yes, an exit against a team of this caliber would not happen again until, carefully speaking, Celtic in 1982 (where he didn't complete the match).


    National team:

    1. 07/09/1966 --- Netherlands - Hungary 2:2 [Euro-qualifiers] 1 goal
    2. 06/11/1966 --- Netherlands - Czechoslovakia 1:2 [Friendly]

    This part is well-known. His succesful debut against a strong Hungary team (top five Elo) and then his debated sending off (and one year ban by FA) against Czechoslovakia (by German referee Glöckner). He had an interesting duel against captain Popluhar. There are suggestions he said something vulgar against the referee (complaining about Popluhar) but the referee reported he was hit, which has been contested.


    Other matches:

    Since eight international matches is maybe too few (not his fault), we might look at other matches from around that time for added context. I don't claim these are the equivalent of competitive games, but they add perspective and increase the sample.

    2. 08/06/1966- Cherno More - Ajax 3:1 1 goal
    3. 12/06/1966 - Spain NT - Ajax 1:2 1 goal [pre-WC friendly]
    4. 03/08/1966 - Ajax - Aston Villa 2:0 [assisters unknown]
    5. 07/08/1966 - Ajax - CSKA Sofia 7:1 3 goals [assisters unknown]
    6. 01/02/1967 - Ajax - Anderlecht 1:4 [subbed out in second half, ~55th minute]
    7. 06/08/1967 - Ajax - Anderlecht 3:1 2 assists
    8. 09/08/1967 - Ajax - Everton 3:0 2 goals 1 assist (PK drawn)
    9. 23/08/1967 - Standard Liege - Ajax 0:1 1 goal [played only one half]
    10. 07/12/1967 - Ajax - Slovan Bratislava 5:1 3 goals 1 assist (PK drawn)
    11. 13/12/1967 - Israel NT - Ajax 1:6 2 goals 1 assist (at least)
    Excluding amateur club teams and lower division teams.



    All in all I'd say he did quite well, in the opportunities he got. Because of that 'consistency', some foreign magazines already started to notice. The club and certainly the disorganized national side weren't fully competitive yet, but did individually well against (on paper) more renowned teams. There are iconic youngsters, like Maradona in 1979, who really struggle to show goals and assists against foreign opposition (incl. club friendlies) in their free role, but that's my view and what I noticed.


    It's sometimes said this was one of his better seasons, difficult to compare it with other incarnations of himself obviously.
     
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  12. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Great post and full of stats (which I like!) and good info, aware the perception re Dutch league was weaker but with hindsight perhaps this is not the case, within two years they had their first EC finalist and within three years first EC winner that started of a string of four wins in a row... totally aware that noone had a crystal ball at the time to see this upcoming success, did the Dutch league improve that dramatically within 2/3 years, I doubt it, more just finally got the results it was capable of in EC.

    Also, another point re Dukla Prague, don't underestimate them, they were the army team of Czechoslovakia, formed the nucleus of national side that reached the final of WC 62. Also in the semi finals against Celtic in the first leg Dukla missed two big chances in the first 20 minutes that could have completely changed the tie, even then despite going down 3-1 in Glasgow the Celtic team were apparently very relieved to come out of Prague with a draw and go through to the final as they were aware the how strong Dukla were, had Dukla gone through instead of Celtic I feel they would have had a decent chance versus Inter.

    So in short, no big loss losing to Dukla, unlike say Man United losing to Partizan Belgrade the previous season, who having thumped a strong Benfica in Lisbon and by admission of a few players had thought they were in the final and underestimated Belgrade.
     
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  13. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Very interesting, a lot of votes seem to be based on carry over from last year, perceived quality, and long term reputation (Eusebio, Charlton, Albert). Not many based on form/accomplishments this year.
     
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  14. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Adding the players discussed to the nominees list.

    Nominees
    Ronnie Simpson (Celtic, Scotland)
    Tommy Gemmell (Celtic, Scotland)
    Billy McNeill (Celtic, Scotland)
    Bobby Murdoch (Celtic, Scotland)
    Jimmy Johnstone (Celtic, Scotland)
    Bobby Lennox (Celtic, Scotland)
    Gerd Muller (Bayern Munich, West Germany)
    Franz Beckenbauer (Bayern Munich, West Germany)
    Wolfgang Overath (Koln, West Germany)
    Helmut Haller (Bologna)
    Janos Farkas (Vasas SC, Hungary)
    Florian Albert (Ferencvaros, Hungary)
    Bobby Charlton (Manchester United, England)
    George Best (Manchester United, Northern Ireland)
    Geoff Hurst (West Ham, England)
    Alan Ball (Everton, England)
    Jimmy Greave (Tottenham, England)
    Ove Kindvall (Feyenoord, Sweden)
    Eusebio (Benfica, Portugal)
    Jose Augusto (Benfica, Portugal)
    Giacinto Facchetti (Internazionale, Italy)
    Sandro Mazzol (Internazionale, Italy)
    Luigi Riva (CagliaIri, Italy)
    Gianni Rivera (AC Milan, Italy)
    Nestor Combin (Torino)
    Nikola Kotkov (Lokomotiv Sofia, Bulgaria)
    Johnny Bjerregaard (Rapid Wien, Denmark)
    Eduard Streltsov (Torpedo Moscow, Soviet Union)
    Anatoliy Byshovets (Dynamo Kiev, Soviet Union)
    Igor Chislenko (Dynamo Moscow, Soviet Union)
    Pirri (Real Madrid, Spain)
    Pedro de Felipe (Real Madrid)
    Paul Van Himst (Anderlecht, Belgium)
    Louis Pilot (Standard Liege, Luxembourg)
    Johan Cruyff (Ajax, Netherlands)
    Zvezdan Čebinac (PSV Eindhoven)
    Zygfryd Szołtysik (Gornik Zabrze, Poland)
    Włodzimierz Lubański (Gornik Zabrze, Poland)
     
  15. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    That's what I've been saying for a while now. The focus on club achievements didn't emerge until the 90s and the super leagues. Before that, talent was spread so wide club success even at a continental level didn't mean a player was necessarily worthy of a Ballon nomination. Like from that Celtic side I don't think we need to consider anyone besides Johnstone and Gemmell.

    From the Ballon-votes we can immediately nix one-vote wonders like Bjerregaard and Kotkov. Basically everyone who wasn't a sure starter for their NT, unless there was an actual reason for their omission. Otherwise we could have a list of hundreds.
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In non-tournament years, and also the euros until 1972, the BdO winner was often the one winning the EC. From 1964 onward, the winner was generally a protagonist in one of the continental competitions, or EC finalist. Only a few weren't. This was spelled out more thorough and detailed before by people (maybe I can find back) but it isn't hard to notice (exceptions aside). Florian Albert in 1967 is one of those exceptions.
     
  17. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Good post, I agree with what you are saying about how votes were cast at this time. I also feel like we do not need to match their voting criteria. I think it is appropriate for us to use some hindsight and our ability to have a broader more global view of events than many voters of the time had.
     
  18. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    Great thread....I think '67 was the breakout year for Freddy Adu. :whistling:
     
  19. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    We've discussed this before. Most of even the successful club sides consisted of a couple of key top class players assisted by a bunch of more average ones. Celtic is a perfect example. The easiest way to tell them apart is to check who was also the key top class player for their NT. We don't need to extend consideration to the support crew. If a player isn't good enough to make his NT 11 why consider him for a world 23?

    The first thing we need to do is establish our own voting criteria. I don't think we've done that yet? Let's not slip into the presumption that because we live in the Internet-era we know better than the people of the time did. The voters were top journos who followed football globally even if they didn't have access to every game.

    I have noticed a trend in WS and Ballon-votes of players starting to get proper attention a year "too late" from their emergence. It could be down to journos not being properly aware of what was going on in local leagues, but I also see it as a player needing to prove himself in continental competition (club or NT) before being considered as one of the top players.

    You're right we do have the advantage of hindsight. We can fix all the flash in the pan votes like those WC-2002 "stars" or Greek players, and also consider a player's overall career. I'm sure Kotkov and Bjerregaard looked like world-beaters to the guys who voted for them, but we now know their impact to the game didn't really warrant a Ballon-nomination.
     
  20. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I find it very odd (maybe refreshing?) the West German journalist did not vote either Muller or Beckenbauer in top 5 (especially the former given he was later voted the countries FoY) given his proximity to the league and 17 other journalists voted for them to see, but gave Haller his only vote and also same re Cebinanc re his only vote... maybe he had a dislike for Bayern !
     
  21. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think this is a good idea in most cases, but a special exception might need to be made for Scotland's strange selection issues, especially when it comes to Celtic players.

    Do your editions of World Soccer shed any light on the standouts from the Celtic group of players? Johnstone and Gemmell got all the Balon D'Or votes, but some of the other less flashy players like Murdoch and McNeill have good cases in my opinion. Jock Stein said Murdoch was the best player he ever coached. Johnstone said he was the best footballer of the Lisbon Lions. Helenio Herrera refered to him as "my complete footballer" after the EC final. After beating Fiorentina in the 1970 EC, Fiorentina's manager said "Murdoch is the father, all the other Celtic players are his children".

    Murdoch was only capped 12 times, and he played well in those caps scoring 6 times despite being a halfback, and some goals were very important.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Don't get me wrong, I honestly don't fully get how Muller can make the sudden jump from below international class (halfway the season) to #1 and world class at the end of the season. Unless it's defined by his double cup win.

    I'm aware that featuring for the national team was a (de facto) requirement for being rated world class. He started and made his debut in a friendly against Turkey (no goals), then he added two more qualification games in the second half of the season (Albania and Yugoslavia - scored 4 goals, including a penalty, against the former).

    I've also understood the national team manager and his staff weren't fully sold on him and remained reserved until ~1969. Might be a factor for delayed recognition too.

    The 'strange' thing is here he scores 9 goals against top five opponents in the first 15 rounds (3 december) and then 1 goal in the remainder, which was a penalty. Per 'fussballdaten' the assist count for these matches is 1 and 0. Four of his 'team of the week' selections came in the first 15 rounds and one in the remainder. There isn't though much difference in his average grade.

    In the domestic cup (all games are in 1967) he first plays two lower division teams and then Schalke and Hamburg that finished 15th and 14th (3 goals). Not sure whether that is a 'world class' turner.

    Maybe it is the Cup Winners Cup. Five goals vs Standard Liege (3rd in their league, UEFA league rank 10, 10th in average ClubElo) and Rapid Wien (1st in their league, UEFA rank 18, 15th in average ClubElo), as opposed to 3 goals against Tatran Presov and Shamrock Rovers in the first half of the season (no assists in 9 matches according to fussballdaten).

    It's something I had noticed before, that sudden jump and that this wasn't immediately obvious to me.
     
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  23. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I'll keep an eye out once I get there. I'm currently finishing up 63-64. :thumbsup:

    What were the selection issues with regard to Celtic? I could see a case maybe made for McNeill for honorary mentions, but doubt he'd make it past that, considering his playing position and all.
     
  24. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #24 Tom Stevens, Feb 19, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/fifa-ballon-dor.1574315/page-33#post-22621816

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/sheep-draft-main-thread.1305113/page-68#post-20130943

    Some more discussion that causes my personal assessment to not rely so heavily on selection for internationals if better information is available

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ex...ng-in-retrospect.2019308/page-2#post-32193854.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/sheep-draft-main-thread.1305113/page-68#post-20131626
     
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  25. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Also I personally believe Celtic needs more than two players in the 23, especially in a season like this when they are basically the only team club or international with truly impressive accomplishment/record in this season.
     

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