Zidane or Riquelme?

I did not say so! I just said "if that speculation/rumor" is true, it must be the case of WC02. His record was so poor, and besides his "hard work" I could not see any positive sign for him to be with France NT, the team with plenty of younger talent, not like China,Honduras or New Zealand!

In fact, If i remember right, it was Dugary's mistake (lost the ball to Diouf) that led to France lost to Senegal.

 

Hey Estel I managed to find a compilation of that legendary comeback of a game against the very formidable AC Milan. Here's Zidane,Dugarry and co.

 

Why what "quality of opposition" could you possibly mean? You mean the AC Milan that would be dominated by Juventus for the following ten years or so?

If so, I don't see why such "opposition" is superior to the opposition that Villarreal faced in 2005/2006. Was an AC Milan with George Weah and a finished Roberto Baggio, really that much better than an Inter Milan with a young Adriano and an in form Luis Figo who was set to have a very good 2006 World Cup? Was Bayern Munich in season 1995/1996 better than Arsenal in season 2005/2006? Was Slavia Praha better than Rangers or Benfica?

I don't get it? To me it looks like Zidane and Riquelme faced opponents of more or less the same caliber.

And that goes without saying, that Villarreal faced teams like Barcelona and Real Madrid in season 2005/2006, something that Zidane did not do in season 1995/1996.

NOTE

Bordeaux Before Zidane: Bordeauz reached the Round of 16 of the UEFA Cup in season 1990/1991, again reached the Round of 16 of the UEFA Cup in season 1988/1989, reached the quarter-finals of the UEFA Cup in season 1987/1988, reached the semi-finals of the UEFA Cup Winners Cup in season 1986/1987, reached the semi-finals of the UEFA Champions League in season 1984/1985 (note: something they never came close to achieving with Zidane).

Bordeaux After Zidane: Bordeaux was already in the quarter-finals of the UEFA Cup as early as 1998/1999, played the Champions League in season 1999/2000, again reached the quarter-finals of the UEFA Cup in season 2003/2004.

Now I must ask, what did Villarreal accomplished before and after Riquelme?

Zinedine Zidane never won a single trophy without a world class striker. Zidane was surrounded by Champions League winners for about 90% of his career. Not shabby by any means, it must be said.

Did Villarreal ever made it to a Champions League quarter-final (let alone a semi-final) without Riquelme?

Two things: Riquelme vs Real Madrid Intercontinental Cup 2000, and, Riquelme vs Inter Milan Champions League quarter-final 2006..... I've never seen Zidane do such a thing, I have Zidane's very best performances between 2000 and 2004 on DVD, and I've never seen him take over a match the way Riquelme did it in those two occasions.

Had Villarreal had Zidane instead of Riquelme, I don't see them beating Inter Milan. Riquelme was the type of player who could make Luis Figo, Luis Figo at the peak of his powers in year 2000, look like a completely average player. He did the same in 2006, making both Luis Figo and Sebastian Veron, look like nothing more than ordinary players with good reputations. I've just never seen Zidane single-handedly take over a match the way Riquelme at his best could.

Zidane was the type of player who could sporadically produce moments of magic, like his very memorable goal in the Champions League Final, or his little runs down the left side of the pitch, but to my knowledge, Zidane could not consistently take over a match from start to finish, the way Riquelme at his best could.

In other words, I'm saying that although Zidane gave memorable performances from 1998 to 2000 to 2006, that he, to my knowledge, was never a player who had the ability to consistently produce the type of performance where he would "single-handedly" take over a match. On the other hand, Riquelme, in spite of his lack of trophies at NT level, or his lack of trophies in European Football, was a player who, through the years, from 2000 to 2007, did consistently produced the type of performance where he would "single-handedly" take over a match.

I don't mean to say that Riquelme was better, but I think I'm giving Riquelme the credit that he deserves, particularly when compared to an inconsistent player like Zidane. For all their aesthetic or superficial similarities, Riquelme and Zidane were very different players. I'm not arguing that Riquelme was better, I'm merely arguing that I fail to see why Zidane is supposedly the "better" or "superior" player when compared to Riquelme.

Damn, that is not nearly as impressive as I expected, I must say. I might've well been a legendary team performance, but certainly nothing legendary at an individual level.

 

That Villarreal team was really something...a serious 'europes rejects' that came together to show them what South America could REALLY do... Juan Manuel Pena was AWSOME for them....but before and after never played at a team at that level again. Legend.

 

Yes the AC Milan which beat Juventus in the CL final 8 years later and also beat them(who would go on to win the CL) to the Serie A title that same year. And obviously they were dominated from next year onwards, since Zidane joined Juventus at the end of that year and stayed with them for the next 5 and left them with enough money to buy 3 great players in Nedved, Buffon and Cannavaro, what else would you expect?

But seriously, if you are saying that the Inter of 05-06 is comparable to Capello's Milan (even one near the end of its road), it casts some serious doubts on your judgement.

As for the rest of those teams, again, I would say they are quite easily comparable if not specifically better (although that Bayern vs the 05-06 Arsenal is again very doubtful), but Riquelme's contributions and most importantly his failures are not so to Zidane's, IMHO.

Oh, and the record of Villareal against Real and Barcelona is 2 draws and 2 losses and it is in a different tournament, so there doesn't seem to be any point in you mentioning them in this context.

An interesting argument but again a logical failure.

You believe that rather than considering the quantifiable aspects of a player's performance during his time with a team, what is important is to consider how that team fared before his arrival or after he left. How are those in any way governable by the player? Consider an example, to help you understand what I am saying,

We have a player (incidentally from South America) who played for a team for one year. He was spectacular on all fronts winning multiple individual awards (including the Balon d'Or runner-up). He scored 34 goals in the league however his team failed to win that trophy (although they did win a couple of other trophies i.e. the league cup and a european trophy).

Now before his time - In the 8 years prior to his joining that team, it won the league 4 times as well as winning the league cup and the same european trophy that he won with them, while also winning the highest european trophy.

After his time - In the 2 years immediately after he left, that team won the league 2 times in a row as well as winning the league cup a second time.

So, should I, as per your logic, conclude that this player was, at the league level, a failure as compared to another player on whose joining this team immediately won the league followed by the league and the highest european cup double (as happened 8 years later?)

In case you are wondering, I am talking about Ronaldo when he joined Barcelona in the year 96-97.

Depends on how many players of the caliber of Forlan, Senna, Tacchinardi, etc. were playing for them before and after. In any case, they finished runners up in the league without Riquelme (which they missed out on with him playing), and they also replicated a run to the semi-finals of the UEFA Cup without him.

However, if we are going to play your game, then lets also look at NT performances before and after Zidane vs before and after Riquelme, which would come across different generations of players and coaches and give a slightly better handle of the player's impact.

Before Zidane post-Platini (but with Platini as coach) - Did not qualify for WC 90, First round exit in Euro 92, Did not qualify for WC 94 (different coach but with guys like Deschamps, Blanc, Desailly and Lizarazu already part of the team along with Papin and Cantona in attack)

With Zidane (available and fit) - SF Eur0 96, Champions WC 98, Champions Euro 00, Quarterfinal shock to champions Greece in Euro 04 (strangely everybody seemed to lose to them in that tournament, atleast when it mattered i.e.), Finalists WC 06

After Zidane (or with Zidane injured) - First round exit at WC 02, First round exit at Euro 08, First round exit at WC 10 (after only managing to qualify through a controversial handball goal in the playoff against Ireland)

Now lets consider Argentina's performances ,

Before Riquelme (without Maradona) - Champions Copa 91, Champions Copa 93, QFs Copa 95, QFs Copa 97, QFs WC 98,

Without Riquelme (coaching issues) - First round WC 02, Finalists Copa 04

With Riquelme - QFs Copa 99, QFs WC 06 (apparently in this thread someone earlier explained how Riquelme's substitution was justified, but we can neglect this if you want), Finalists Copa 07 (also with Messi)

After Riquelme (with Messi, so not sure how to take this) - QFs WC 10, QFs Copa 11

With Riquelme, Argentina did not seem to do much better than they did without him and always seemed to be second best (in full international tournaments) to the Brazilian teams (Copa 99 and Copa 07; not taking Confed 05 into account as Zidane never participated in that event). Against similar Brazilian teams on the other hand, Zidane seemed to have some of his best NT performances.

Ok, although you should mention that you are speaking specifically of club tournaments here (since otherwise WC 98 is a rather big exception to your statement). In any case, same can be said about Messi's club record that he has not won a single trophy without multiple worldclass midfielders playing with and behind him, it doesn't however mean that he is no-good.

And neither did Bordeaux win another Intertoto Cup or another UEFA Cup silver medal without Zidane.

Finding it more and more difficult to believe your assertions regarding Zidane and "what you have seen him do" after your comparison of Cappello's Milan to 05-06 Inter and your comment on the video that Laudrup_10 posted.

In any case however, would like to clarify that IMO if Real Madrid had their best player from the CL campaign which allowed them to qualify for that intercontinental cup, then things could well have been different. In essence, one of Riquelme's best performances came against a team not having the player who was most instrumental in bringing it that far. I am of course talking about Redondo.

A lot of your opinions, but again, some of your other comments make me question your judgement and thus all of these opinions of yours, that you share with us.

And this comment really tells its own story, doesn't it? You are trying to come across as someone who is extremely well informed about Zidane (from whence come your judgemental assertions that he was not capable of this and was not consistent at that). However, from the above comment, it is clear you have never even seen this match nor Zidane's performance in it before, a match known to any person knowledgeable about Zidane, to be one of the highlights of his career. In such a scenario, going forward, I would find it very difficult to believe any opnions that you share concerning Zidane.

 

Let's start with the most obvious fact: I am not "trying" to come across as someone who is extremely well informed about Zidane.... I am extremely well informed about Zidane: fact. Not my opinion. A fact.

When you grow up watching Zidane at Juventus and Real Madrid, and then you actually buy over 25 games of Zidane in season 2001/2002 and season 2002/2002, you are, in fact, extremely well informed about Zidane.

Listen, Zinedine Zidane is not a hidden gem that nobody knows about. Zinedine Zidane is an extremely overrated, over-marketed football player, quite possibly the most "pop" football player of all times. Not only did I watched a lot of matches of Zidane whilst growing up, but I actually bought over 25 matches of Zidane in season 2001/2002 and season 2002/2003, just at the beginning of this year. So yes, I do think that I have a very informed opinion about Zinedine Zidane.

So again, I must reiterate that first point: I am not "trying" to come across as someone who is extremely well informed about Zidane.... I am extremely well informed about Zidane: fact. Not my opinion. A fact.

You disagree with my views about Zidane?

That can happen. That does not mean that my opinion about Zidane is less informed than yours, which certainly is what you are, in no uncertain way, implying.

I never claimed to have seen Zidane at Bordeaux. Never claimed such a thing, and never will claim to have done something that I didn't actually do: I have better things to do with my time, than making stuff up just to argue a case. And furthermore, I fail to see how not having watched Zidane's early years, discredits the fact that I watched Zidane's best years: Euro 2000, Champions League 2001/2002, La Liga 2002/2003. I have a lot of matches of that era.

But damn, I must be so stupid, I mean, I never suspected that "any person who is knowledgeable about Zidane" must have watched one or two key matches?

By that incredibly childish and stupid logic: your logic..... A Villarreal fan who actually went to the stadium week in week out, who actually watched all the games of Riquelme, over 50 games of Riquelme, does not know the first thing about Riquelme simply because he never watched Riquelme vs Real Madrid Intercontinental Cup 2000? Ridiculous.

I mean, I guess when I watched all of Zidane's games at the Champions League 2001/2002, and at the Euro 2000, all of that "knowledge" has effectively been "undone" because I did not watched Zidane at Bordeaux? Ridiculous.

I was disappointed by that supposedly "legendary" Bordeaux performance, because in my opinion, at least three of Zidane's games at the 2001/2002 Champions League, are better individual performances by Zidane. I certainly expected more, much more, from a game that was supposed to be one of his signature moments with Bordeaux. Certainly, Riquelme's performances with Boca Juniors in year 2000, are obviously superior to that "memorable" performance by Zidane.

You do know that Zidane played at Bordeaux before 1997? How old do you think I am? And how many Zidane matches do you think I'm willing to watch?

Hey pal, I have a job to go to, I have personal studies that I think are important, I don't have the time nor the interest to watch every single "legendary" performance by Zidane. As far as I'm concerned, I have watched Zidane at the World Cup 1998, Euro 2000, Champions League 2001/2002, La Liga 2001/2002, Champions League 2002/2003, La Liga 2002/2003, Euro 2004, World Cup 2006. That is a lot of material, much more than enough material, for me to feel very confident with my assertions about Zidane.

Now, if you think the fact that I have watched none (note: yes, none), of Zidane's matches with Bordeaux.... If you truly think the mentioned fact, takes anything away from my knowledge and credibility, I have to say that says a lot more about your lack of credibility, than it says about my credibility. I personally, would never look at someone with my "credentials", to then claim that such a person should not be "believed" nor "taken seriously" because?

I would never use such a coward and low strategy on any adversary. I don't need to know about Adolf Hitler's youth to know what he did at the peak of his powers. And I certainly don't need to know about Zinedine Zidane's Bordeaux games to know what he did at the peak of his powers. The fact that you want to discredit my credibility, by using such a ludicrous argument, says a lot more about your own credibility, than it says about mine.

Villarreal fans who watched Riquelme between 2003 and 2007, do not need to watch not even one, of Riquelme's Boca Juniors performances, they know very well what Riquelme can do, they do not need to become professional experts on the subject of Riquelme, they do not need to follow every single "legendary" performance by Riquelme, in order to have an informed opinion about Riquelme: they have seen more than enough.

In such a scenario, going forward, I will find it very difficult to believe any opinions that you share, not only regarding that most "pop" football player that is Zinedine Zidane, but anything that you have to say about any football player, since you clearly lack common sense, maturity, and objectivity, when it comes to debating your points.

NOTE

Now tell me, should I "believe" anything that you have to say about Roman Riquelme?

I mean to say: how many Villarreal games of Riquelme did you watched? Over 20 matches of him at Villarreal? Or just about 5 matches of him at Villarreal? How many Boca Junior matches did you watched?

NOTE

Not surprised at all, to see that the person who seems to be lost somewhere inside Laudrup's ass, has repped such a nonsensical response. No wonder Europe is heading down the toilet just like America, it seems to be inhabited mostly by clueless {insert derogatory term of preference here}; and of course, no offense meant to the minority of Europeans who can actually think and formulate logical thoughts and arguments.

 

You and every other fan who was following football during that era has watched that same set of matches considering that Zidane is not a "hidden gem" as you put it, so does it make each and every one of those fans "extremely well informed about Zidane"?

Because these same fans voted Zidane the Best European Footballer of the last 50 years in 2004, Best Player in the Champions League in the last 20 years in 2011 and part of the FIFA World Cup Dream Team in 2002, all ahead of guys like Di Stefano, Cruyff, Platini, Messi, Baggio, etc. So are you going to now agree with these fans and state that these also are "facts"?

I personally think your claim to be extremely well informed about Zidane to be rather absurd, especially when you mention knowledge of the above matches and nothing more as being your basis for it.

Look, you jumped into a discussion wherein I had a responded to Moishe on aspects comparing Zidane's importance and the level of opponents faced in Bordeaux's run to the UEFA Cup Final in 1995/96 vs the same for Riquelme and Villareal's run to the Champions League Semifinal in 2005/06. So, you were expected to have some knowledge of the matches in question in that comparison. It is not an unrealistic expectation, especially considering your tone and the way you portray every piece of opinion that you type regarding Zidane as being "fact".

However, you had not seen Zidane play for Bordeaux for even a single moment. So, obviously your credibililty in this discussion is questionable. And since this "fact" did not give you cause to doubt your decision of entering this discussion in the first place, it also puts your credibility in question on all other aspects that you have been talking about regarding Zidane (or any other player for that matter), since you apparently have the tendency to comment without watching a player perform at the stage about which you are commenting on. This is not rocket science.

As I have already covered most of the points raised by you above, let me explain the other reason why it is difficult to take you seriously. It is precisely because you post a lot of rhetorical queries and opinions without doing proper research yourself.

For instance, you ask rather rhetorically that "Did Villarreal ever made it to a Champions League quarter-final (let alone a semi-final) without Riquelme?" when in fact they seem to have done this exact same thing in the 2008-09 CL season. This was done by a Villareal without Forlan or Tacchinardi or Arrubarena or Riquelme by getting out of a group after again drawing both matches against CL champions and finalists in waiting Manchester United and winning both matches against the same Rangers whom they only managed to get past with the help of the away goals rule in 05-06 and then beating a Panathinaikos team in the round of 8who topped a group containing Mourinho's Inter (the same Inter who would go on to be treble winners the next season), finally losing to Arsenal in the 2nd leg after getting a more favorable result in the first leg than was done by Riquelme's Villareal.

Or, lets take as an example the performance of Riquelme vs Inter 05/06 at home, the video for which you posted earlier and which according to you Zidane is not capable of as you have "never seen him take over a match the way Riquelme did" in that occasion or since according to you if it was Zidane instead of Riquelme playing for Villareal then you "don't see them beating Inter Milan". To check the veracity of your statement regarding his performance I decided to analyse it against Zidane's performance in the UEFA Cup 2nd leg vs AC Milan. Since I had the entire match of Zidane at my disposal, I decided to only look at the negative actions (i.e. those that harmed their team) in my final analysis as in terms of the positive actions, Zidane has quite a bit more (especially in terms of number of times possession won) which though is expected for a full match vs a 7 minute compilation. Anyway, here's the full list of negative actions,

For Riquelme vs Inter Milan CL 05/06 2nd leg (Timings mentioned are from video posted):

Posession Lost -
1:13 (tackled and triple teamed),
3:30 (overhit pass intercepted by defender),
3:48 (tried to give throughball to Forlan but hit it directly to a defender),
4:12 (overhit longball is collected by Inter goalie),
4:30 (througball hit too heavily and collected by Inter goalie before Jose Mari can reach it),
5:02 (tackled on the right wing in own half)
5:33 (lost ball to defender after being tackled outside Inter box),
7:23 (possession lost after pass intercepted by Inter player near halfway line)

Fouls conceded -
1:52 (overhit pass, ball went out of bounds leading to throw-in for Inter)

Shots off target -
2:19 (hit into stands from outside the box),

Shots on target -
4:03 (shot from outside the box, goalie has minimal trouble catching it),

Freekicks taken -
5:38 (overhit freekick into inter goalie's hands)

Total: 12 actions where Riquelme ended up not helping his team and giving back the ball to Inter.


For Zidane vs AC Milan UEFA Cup 95/96 2nd leg (Timings mentioned are from actual match):

Possession Lost -
9:50 (Attempted first touch back heel througball on left wing intercepted by Panucci),
15:20 (Attempted short lob to Dutuel intercepted by Baresi near center cirlce),
21:37 (Attempted headed througpass into Dugarry's path intercepted by Costacurta),
IT1 01:10 (Lost ball to Baggio after tackle from Albertini),
74:33 (Attempted throughball on the right wing is over hit and ends up going out of bounds for a goal kick)

Fouls conceded -
39:08 (Throw in conceded to Panucci on left wing near halfway line),
55:26 (Conceded throw in on left wing after hitting Lizarazu's pass out of bounds),
79:18 (Throw in conceded after successful tackle on Di Canio as the ball went out of bounds on the left wing)

Shots off target -
11:10 (Took a freekick short and missed shot on goal after 1-2 with Dugarry)

Total: 9 actions where Zidane ended up not helping his team and giving back the ball to Milan.


Note that this is the entire match for Zidane vs the 7 minute compilation for Riquelme thus the numbers for Riquelme might well be higher. For me this proves one thing, that along with your level of research even your judgement regarding football is lacking since if you consider this to be a performance that Zidane couldn't replicate then you are certainly out of your depth here. And this is without even taking into account the 6 corners and 2 freekicks on which Riquelme's set piece delivery was bad enough for the match commentary to make a note of it i.e. even after his assist came from another set piece i.e. a freekick.
http://2000.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...n=1/match=1105606/matchcenterlight/index.html
Check comment at minute 32 and the final match analysis where this is mentioned in the above link.

So now tell me again, why should I trust any of your opinions?

I watched his Villareal, the great UEFA Cup double winning Sevilla and Valencia with Villa, Silva, Aimar etc. from that period week-in and week-out since they were the other great teams to watch from La Liga i.e. other than Real and Barcelona. I also watched and cheered Villareal on in the CL in 05/06 (since RM were knocked out early that year) especially since their run was quite special for a small club, and was quite disappointed after Riquelme's pk miss against an Arsenal who seemed to be more or less on the ropes in that match. I also enjoyed every moment of Argentina's WC 2006 campaign (especially that match against Serbia and Montenegro) and was cheering them on to reach the semifinal as I believed that they would have been a much tougher challenge for Italy than the German team who beat them (although as hosts, Germany too had a soft spot in my mind). I also watched him live in Confed 05. That though is as far as live televised games go.

On video (youtube or match downloads) I have seen his Libertadores highlights from 2000, 01 and 07 along with the Copa America 07 and whatever parts of U20 WC 1997 and Copa America 99 that are available on the internet (although these were mainly for Rivaldo's moments during that tournament).

I however, do not consider myself to be a Riquelme expert as these are a small percentage of his overall career games that I have watched IMO, and I therefore try and refrain from making commentary on his overall playstyle, ability, etc. at a career encompassing level, in case you have noticed the same.

Does that answer your question?

I think you are forgetting that this is a completely voluntary discussion in terms of participation, so if you do not have time to do the proper research on the points that you are trying to make because of family, work, education or any other reason taking up your bandwidth, nobody is stopping you from waiting till you can find the time to do the research and then respond. Furthermore, considering that all of us are living breathing human beings, we too have similar constraints, so your trying to make these seem as big reasons regarding why you are unable to watch the matches on which you are trying to enter into a discussion is really a straw man argument and nothing more.

 

.....


I think you are forgetting that this is a completely voluntary discussion in terms of participation, so if you do not have time to do the proper research on the points that you are trying to make because of family, work, education or any other reason taking up your bandwidth, nobody is stopping you from waiting till you can find the time to do the research and then respond. Furthermore, considering that all of us are living breathing human beings, we too have similar constraints, so your trying to make these seem as big reasons regarding why you are unable to watch the matches on which you are trying to enter into a discussion is really a straw man argument and nothing more.[/quote]

Nothing to do with Zidane vs Riquelme. Nothing to do with Leadleader's point - as I did not read well - too long!

this Big REP for Estel's clear factual research and his fair comment *in bold

 

I skipped the rest of the argument, because quite frankly, it made absolutely no sense to me. About this little bit that I am quoting, I must ask: what is your point?

I never commented, not one single one of my observations about Zinedine Zidane, is based on games that I have not seen. Every single thing that I have said about Zidane, is based on matches that I have seen.

The Bordeauz game? I merely shared my thoughts after watching that video. Of course, I could have simply watched youtube videos of Zidane at Bordeaux, and pretend that I did watched Zidane when he played for Bordeaux; but of course, such a thing would've been unethical and dishonest, not really my style.

By "proper research"? What the hell do you mean exactly?

Are you suggesting that in order to criticize what Zidane did between 2000 and 2004, I must also watch what Zidane did early in his career? If so, your argument makes absolutely no sense. My argument is not, has never been, will never be, centered around what Zidane did at Bordeaux. Therefore, I do not need to do "proper research" about a subject that is of absolutely no relevance to my actual argument.

I have watched a lot of games of Zinedine Zidane between 2000 and 2004. My aguments against Zidane, are based around that period between 2000 and 2004. In that respect, I have, indeed, done the "proper research" by watching hours upon hours of video of Zinedine Zidane between 2000 and 2004.

I rest my case. And once again, I must reiterate the very patently obvious fact, that "informed" people can disagree about a subject. The fact that I do not agree with your opinion, does not mean, in any way, that I am not as informed as you. The fact that you think I must do the "proper research" by watching what Zidane did before 1996, in order to criticize what Zidane did between 2000 and 2004, is positively ludicrous as an argument.

I feel like I'm arguing with imature children here, to be honest.

I don't get this?

When did I ever "trid" to "enter into a discussion" about "matches that I was unable to watch"?

I have never talked about Zidane at Bordeaux. I merely commented on a youtube video that showed one of Zidane's signature performances for Bordeaux. This is exactly what I said "damn, that was not nearly as impressive as I expected".

Do note, that I commented something, about something, that I had just actually watched on youtube. Therefore, I am not commenting on something that I was "unable to watch".

Furthermore, and more importantly, 100% of my criticism about Zinedine Zidane, is based on what Zidane did between 2000 and 2004, considered by many to be Zidane's peak years. I did my research, and I specifically bought the best performances by Zidane. Every single description that I've given of Zidane, is based on the matches that I have seen, rather than on speculation.

The difference between my argument and your argument, is extremely simple. I am not trying to discredit your opinion, I am not agreeing with your opinion, and I have given my reasons as to why. On the other hand, you are discrediting my opinion, by accusing me of something that I have not actually done. I have never commented on matches that I was "unable" to watch. You have accused me of "regarding why you are unable to watch the matches on which you are trying to enter into a discussion"..... I must ask you: why are you trying to discredit my opinion and my credibility, by accusing me of something that I have not done?

All of my comments about Zidane are based on video that I have indeed watched. Why are you accusing me of discussing matches that I was unable to watch? When I have never done such a thing?

Please just answer the question, instead of coming up with long nonsensical arguments in which you accuse me of things I'm not guilty of. Just answer the question, please.

 

I offered myself to help a corporation that makes video games, simulation games to be precise. I offered my help, in terms of watching a lot of games from famous players, and writing every single thing, down on paper. I have recently, about three months ago, watched over 25 complete games of Zidane during season 2001/2002 and season 2002/2003, a period of time considered by many as the peak years of Zidane, in addition to Euro 2000.

I have created stats such as "possession lost when" as well as "types of passes completed" rather than just "passes completed". I am very informed about Zidane, he was a great player, but personally I don't see what made him better than Riquelme.

My goal was to find out, not what made players better, but what made players different from one another. From that view point, you can then better understand why some players are better than others. Or at least, personally, I think I have a better understanding now. Where Zidane is concerned, he was not slow as it is widely believed, and he loosed the ball more easily than I remembered, I certainly fail to see why Zidane was better than Riquelme.

My memories of Zidane, were certainly greater than what I watched over three months ago. This can happen, sometimes memories aren't very realistic or accurate, which is something you might realize when you re-visit the source of said memories.

Long story short: not only did I grew up watching Zidane, but I just recently, as recently as just three months ago, watched over 25+ matches of Zidane during season 2001/2002 and season 2002/2003, as well as the EURO 2000. I do not consider myself the absolute expert on Zidane. However, I do consider myself much more informed, than the vast majority out there who "remember" Zidane.

Stupid point on your part. I never suggested nor even implied such a thing. Please, do stop offending my intelligence.

I don't understand neither the relevance nor the substance, of your points. I mean, what does that even mean?

"personally I think your claim to be extremely well informed about Zidane to be rather absurd, especially when you mention....."

I mean, again, what does that even mean? Am I supposed to feel "intimidated" or "belittled" by, what is after all, just your personal opinion?

Personally, I think it is a very dumb argument, to try to discredit my opinion on the basis of things that I haven't seen that I've never pretended that I have seen. Rather than actually try to argue against my argument, objectively, you are merely trying to discredit my credibility, simply because I never watched Zidane before he joined Juventus.

Well, then, by your logic, whatever I have seen of Zidane, at Juventus, World Cup 1998 and 2006, Euro 2000 and 2004, Real Madrid, should not be taken seriously, simply because I never watched Zidane before he joined Juvenuts. I mean, your logic simply doesn't make any sense at all. Your non-argument is what we call "red herring", meaning, when your argument does not actually argues any of my points, but instead tries to discredit the credibility of my argument, by arguing against something I never actually claimed: that's called "red herring".

You personally don't think I should be taken seriously?

Ok. It is your opinion, you are well entitled to it. It doesn't mean you are right? It doesn't mean your opinion is better informed than mine? Because my opinion is based on what I have actually seen, and whatever it is that I haven't seen, takes absolutely nothing away from my credibility.

Your argument would make sense, had I ever said something like "Zidane with Bordeaxu was not as good as Riquelme with Villarreal". But I never said such a thing, did I ?

My exact words were: "damn, that is not nearly as impressive as I expected.". The mentioned words, describing a youtube video, that I did watched.

I have never typed "every piece of opinion regarding Zidane" as a "fact". Your opinion about my writing style, is not a fact, I can guarantee you that much.

I never claimed that I watched Zidane playing with Bordeaux. You do have a point, that not having watched Zidane with Bordaux, does mean that my opinion is not worth much in a discussion in which Zidane at Bordeaux is the subject. I agree about that. However, why and how does the admitted truth, take anything away from my criticism regarding Zidane? It doesn't. I have never criticized Zidane for what he did at Bordeaux. I have always criticized Zidane for what he did at Juventus and Real Madrid, which is what I've seen of him.

So obviously, my credibility in this discussion is questionable because?

I mean, this is just hilarious. If I had any agenda here, I would have just lied, I would have just watched a couple of youtube videos, to then claim that I did indeed watched Zidane at Bordeaux. As it did actually happened, I merely looked at the "on paper" teams, and from there made the comparison with Riquelme's Villarreal, and "on paper" nothing seems to suggest that Zidane faced a more difficult level of opponent.

This is exactly what I said,

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Why what "quality of opposition" could you possibly mean? You mean the AC Milan that would be dominated by Juventus for the following ten years or so?

If so, I don't see why such "opposition" is superior to the opposition that Villarreal faced in 2005/2006. Was an AC Milan with George Weah and a finished Roberto Baggio, really that much better than an Inter Milan with a young Adriano and an in form Luis Figo who was set to have a very good 2006 World Cup? Was Bayern Munich in season 1995/1996 better than Arsenal in season 2005/2006? Was Slavia Praha better than Rangers or Benfica?

I don't get it? To me it looks like Zidane and Riquelme faced opponents of more or less the same caliber.

And that goes without saying, that Villarreal faced teams like Barcelona and Real Madrid in season 2005/2006, something that Zidane did not do in season 1995/1996.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That is exactly, word for word, what I said.

I never said nor implied that I had watched Zidane at Bordeaux. However, to me, it sounds very unlikely that Zidane faced more difficult opposition at a UEFA Cup, than Riquelme at a Champions League.....

That "great" AC Milan team was dominated for the best part of an entire decade by Juventus. A Bayern Munich team that was playing UEFA Cup instead of UEFA Champions League. And Slavia Praha.....

I mean, I never claimed -as you can clearly see- to have watched Zidane at Bordeaux, but merely I said "to me it looks like Zidane and Riquelme faced opponents of more or less the same caliber". Had I actually seen Zidane at Bordeaux, I would have never said "to me it looks like", instead, I would have said "in my opinion, I think it's the same level of opposition etc".

According to you, Zidane faced more difficult opposition at a UEFA Cup, than Riquelme at a UEFA Champions League..... If you can't see how debatable that is, you are biased.

Inter Milan and Arsenal had great players and were playing Champions League football, yet, not as strong as the AC Milan and Bayern Munich teams that Zidane faced in the UEFA Cup.... that's just very debatable, and I don't need to watch the matches to know why that is.

You have "covered" almost nothing, actually. What you actually have done, is what is called a "straw man argument". That is, an argument in which you do not actually argue against my actual argument, but instead you deviate into your own fabrications, fabrications in which you accuse me of things that I haven't actually done.

That is not an "explanation". I mean, what is that? What are you explaining there? Are you explaining that you think that I post a lot of rhetorical queries without proper research? Well thank you for so kindly explaining your opinion, but you must understand, that your opinion is still just that, an opinion, not a fact, not an objective medium by which you can objectively discredit other people's opinions..

What happens if I think that I have actually done a lot of proper research? Who is wrong here?

How does explaining your opinion, in any way, means that I have not done proper research?

Watching over 25+ matches in 8 days, of Zidane at Real Madrid, added to all of Zidane's game at the 2000 Euro, and writing down every single thing that Zidane does, on paper.... is not "proper research" to you?

If so, tell me, who are the people who should be taken seriously? Because I can tell you, that besides me, I only know or have heard of, only a handful of people, who have devoted so much time and effort into re-visiting past games and writing everything down into paper, with the main goal of accurately portraying Zidane on a simulation video game.

In any case, and seeing how I obviously disagree with you due to obvious questions, I must ask just for the sake of my personal amusement: please, do tell me, what is "proper research"?

Ok, so I was wrong, Villarreal did reached the quarter-finals of the 2008/2009 Champions League. Fair play to you for looking that up, and proving me wrong. And? How does that, in any way, discredit my points regarding Zidane? My points are actually written down on paper, based on nothing but pure numbers and statistics, I have absolutely no agenda against Zidane nor against any other player, and I certainly, most certainly, fail to see how being wrong about a rather redundant or unimportant data, takes anything away from my credibility.

And again: Villarreal has never reached a Champions League semi-final without Riquelme. I mean, when compared to Bordeaux, who did reached the semi-finals of the Champions League, without Zidane.

.....was done by Riquelme's Villareal.....

Riquelme's Villarreal in season 2008/2009?

I must ask that, because quite certainly, Robert Pires, Santi Cazorla, and Giuseppe Rossi, all of which were key players for Villarreal in 2008/2009, were not part of Riquelme's Villarreal. Not to mention the other players who were included, such as Nihat Kahveci and Matias Fernandez, all of which were bought primarily with Champions League money, and with the money that they obtained after selling Riquelme.

So that's a false statement by you. Riquelme's Villarreal did not reached the quarter-finals of the 2008/2009 Champions League, that was a different Villarreal team, in which a complete new set of players (except Marcos Senna) became the key players.

Riquelme's Villarreal was, in essence: Marcos Senna, Diego Forlan, and Sorin, in addition to Riquelme. Gonzalo and Tacchinardi (when he played) were notable characters as well.

Villarreal in season 2008/2009, did not have neither Riquelme, nor Forlan, nor Sorin, all of which were key players in season 2005/2006.

Should I doubt your credibility as result?

How many things did Zidane tried against AC Milan? Did you noticed that Zidane's youtube video was almost two minutes shorter than that of Riquelme? Does that not suggest that Riquelme tried more things against Inter?

Riquelme almost scored a goal, which was not a goal thanks to a great save by Toldo. Riquelme offered one or two good passes to Forlan. Riquelme made the assist for the all-important goal. Riquelme's assists vs Inter, was better than Zidane's assist vs Milan, required more accuracy both in terms of direction and weight, than Zidane's short pass vs Milan.

Not to mention, that brilliant moment in which Riquelme chipped the ball over Veron, to then dribble past Veron, to then dribble past a third player (Figo?), to then shot at goal. Zidane did not produced such a moment of magic against AC Milan. And yes, in the end, Riquelme's shot on goal was not an target, but then again, Riquelme created a chance out of nothing, and he had the ambition to score that goal; again, Zidane never produced such a moment against AC Milan.

When you said the following: "12 actions where Riquelme ended up not helping his team and giving back the ball to Inter?"

You mean to say that when Riquelme was "tackled and triple teamed" and, in turn, lost possession of the ball, that Riquelme did not help his team in any way? You mean to say that a football player who needs to be "triple teamed" in order to loose the ball, is not helping his team?

Well, how long did it took for that "triple team" to take the ball off Riquelme? I'm asking because that times counts as possession, meaning that Riquelme was indeed doing something for his team.

You have a very funny way of rating performances. So trying less difficult skills, doing less for your team, and loosing the ball less times, is better than what Riquelme produced against Inter? I disagree.

First of all, you can say that you watched "Villarreal week-in week-out", it still is only your word, I mean, I could have said that I watched "Bordeaux's UEFA Cup" and you wouldn't have known it was a lie because those UEFA Cup games can be found on youtube, I could have just watched those youtube videos, and said that I watched Zidane's UEFA Cup games.

So, obviously, I do have my doubts about your claims about Riquelme and Villarreal. Furthermore, and more importantly, in the grander scheme of things it makes absolutely no difference. You could have watched all of Villarreal's CL games, and I could've done the same thing, and we could still have very different opinions, despite the fact that both us (in such a scenario) would be equally informed about the player in question.

For the record, I do not consider myself a Zidane expert. But I do consider myself a person who has watched a lot of Zidane's best performances, when Zidane was at his best. That, in my opinion, makes me very informed.

I already responded to that quite in a separate post. Again, a "straw man argument" is precisely what your argument is. You are accusing me of something I never said nor implied. You failed to argue any of my actual points. You have presented false data, whilst at the same time accusing me of lacking credibility, etc, etc.

I'm not impressed in the slightest, by your argument. As hard as you've tried to discredit my credibility, I do not think you have successfully done so, and not only that, but in your effort to said thing, you have actually presented false data, which in turn, makes me have doubts about your credibility. You have used both the "red herring" tactic, as well as the "straw man" tactic. You really, are about the last person, who should be accusing anyone, not just me, of a straw man argument.

 

Juventus was already dominating without Zidane. Juventus won the Serie A in season 1994/1995, with Del Piero as the main player, and with some contributions by Baggio. Juventus won the Champions League in season 1995/1996, without Zidane.

Zidane came in, and Juventus has never won a CL ever since. In fact, the season that Del Piero missed the entire season due to a serious knee injury, Zidane played most of the games, yet Juventus finished in 6th place: true story.

But oh well, at least Zidane was good business, in that Juventus over-sold him to Real Madrid, that was indeed good business for Juventus.

Because?

And, furthermore, Riquelme played against Del Bosque's Real Madrid in year 2000, at a time when Real Madrid wasn't near the end of the road, a Real Madrid team that would indeed go on to win the CL in season 2001/2002.

Riquelme's performance against that Real Madrid team, was comfortably better than Zidane's performance against that "great" AC Milan team. Now what would this prove?

Well, for starters, it proves that Riquelme could produce great performances against better teams than that "great" Milan team.

Riquelme producing a similar performance against Inter Milan, in the quarter-finals of the Champions League, only reinforces the notion that Riquelme could produce his best form against any opponent.

NOTE

If that AC Milan team was as great as you say it was, how come it was playing the UEFA Cup instead of the UEFA Champions League?

 

This is hilarious. Zidane was 13 years old when Bordeaux reached the CL semi-final and Giresse, Tigana, Battiston, Lacombe, Chalana were the key players of that team .
Do you realize that what you say about Villareal being a different team in 2008-2009 and so on actually applies even more to Zidane's Bordeaux compared to the team that reached the CL 1/2 final in 1985... 11 years before Bordeaux reached the UEFA Cup final ?

 

Leadleader was always nitpicking on something so IRRELEVANT.

Like I mentioned, Compare a YOUNG Zidane with Bordeaux in a lower league to a PEAK form Riquelme with Vilareal in bigger league is like APPLES to ORANGES! why bother???

because :
1- Even if Zidane exceeded Riquelme's performance at Villareal, they will say oh that was a LOWER league!!!

2- Now if Zidane performed worse, they are (now) saying : See! I told you Riquelme was on par or better!

that's losing case eitehr way no?

==========================================

Bottom line:
1- Zidane never failed to deliver form small club to big club, from club to National team
2- Riquelme FAILED to deliver at bigclub, he performed great at smaller clubs though (boca and Villareal) - at National team he did very well, but not great to win anything ( his best chance was at copa07 - he was ON COURSE to win the MVP if he and Messi could beat the 2nd string Brazil team! )

 

You seem to have covered these same points below in more detail, but do let me know in case you need me to respond to this comment as well.

 

Thank you for that explanation and detailed information regarding your background. But, just as you have stated below when responding to my answer in response to your question on how much of Riquelme with Villareal I have watched, let me also state here that "obviously, I do have my doubts about your claims".

Also, one reason for me not considering you to be very informed about Zidane is due to what you have written regarding arguments against Zidane in this forum in the past two months. These are cliches which have been written earlier by older posters right here on this forum as well as on other forums i.e. these things are not new and thus your analysis not quite original. From an informed poster, I tend to expect a bit more.

I never wrote that you said such a thing either. I only wrote that people who have probably watched just as much of Zidane as you have, consider Zidane to be so good as to vote more often for him than those other players that I mentioned, in the various polls that I mentioned.

This was done to showcase that the number of matches that you have seen of a modern era great like Zidane is not a large enough number to consider you to be more well informed about him as a player than the average fan who was following football during that era.

As explained earlier, that personal opinion was arrived at due to 1) you jumping into an argument regarding "Zidane in Bordeaux" without having ever watched a single game of Zidane from that period and 2) claiming to be "extremely well informed about Zidane" on the basis of watching matches which every other fan who followed football during that era has watched.

Considering that you have now come down from "extremely well informed" to "much more informed, than the vast majority", I'll say that it would be best to wait and see exactly how much lower you go to understand exactly how well informed you are about Zidane.

It is good that you do agree with me here since your entering that discussion not having watched Zidane with Bordeax did indeed mean that your opinion in that discussion in which Zidane at Bordeaux was part of the subject could not be given much weight.

And regarding your tone and writing style, would suggest that you take my comments as constructive criticism.

Look, you just conceded this point to me above, but you still want to debate on semantics, on whether you were wrong in speaking only about the strength of competition faced and not about Zidane's play directly? Ok, let me draw it out for you,

1) You had not watched any matches of Zidane with Bordeaux in the 95-96 UEFA Cup
2) You still claimed his opponents were no better than Riquelme's with Villareal in the 05-06 CL
3) How exactly is this opinion supposed to be in any way "informed" if you have not in fact watched any of those opponents play against Zidane in any of those matches?
4) After all, comparing names can only take you so far since if these comparisons always panned out then there would be no need for big teams to play actual matches with minnows, they could just give a random win to the big team and be done with it.

So the point is, that since you did not show any obligation to mention this very relevant point of not having actually watched these matches until you were caught out while indicating this fact in an offhand comment, your credibility does indeed become questionable.

Lastly, if you indeed do not have an agenda here,
How come other completely un-related posters state, and I quote, - "When you're done, you should gather your postings into a 1000 (and counting) page book about how Zidane was overrated and which player was better post-surgery" about your posts?
How come you are making statements like, and I quote, - "Zidane is so overrated, that a pair of idiots who consider themselves "journalists", actually implied that Romario was in the same class as Ibrahimovic, whilst at the same time, these "journalists" went on to say that Zidane was in the same class as Maradona and Pele..... Now that is an overrated player."?
How come you are one of the most active posters on both this and the 'Why is Zidane so overrated' threads who is denigrating Zidane?
Very strange behaviour from someone who says that they do not have an agenda.

Btw before I forget, are you a FC Barcelona fan?

Ok. Feel free to share with me the points that you made and exactly how I failed to cover them, since they seemed to me to be the exact same points to which I had replied earlier in that post.

Proper research is when you actually check your facts before making claims. You seem not to do this and I had covered a couple of examples of these earlier from only this particular discussion that we were having. However, just to bring the point home, here are a few other examples from older posts of yours that you have made regarding Zidane, which also showcase this -

1) You stated and I quote "As a matter of fact, and if I remember correctly, France reached the final of the 2000 Euro thanks to a penalty kick that resulted out of yet another DIVE by one of Zidane's team mates. It's funny how whenever Zidane played against Figo, the referee tended to favor Zidane's team, seeing how France eliminated Portugal with DIVING CHEAT tactics, twice (2000 EURO and 2006 World Cup), to reach the final."
This is factually incorrect, as it was not a dive but a handball by the Portuguese defender Abel Xavier that prevented a goal, which resulted in the referee awarding the PK to France. Considering that Zidane gave one of his most aesthetically pleasing performances against Portugal in 2000 while also showing the guts to actually convert that PK with aplomb after all the drama which went down before it was allowed to be taken, your assessment of Zidane's France always needing "DIVING CHEAT tactics" to eliminate Figo's Portugal seems patently wrong.

2) You stated and I quote, "Zinedine Zidane was an absolute flop in the Champions League prior to his signing with Real Madrid.", when in fact Zidane won a 3rd place Balon d'Or in 1997 and a UEFA midfielder of the year of the award in 1998 on the back of his performances in the Champions League while having 13 goals+assists+pre-assists in 14 games that he played in the knockout rounds i.e. QFs, SFs and Finals of the CL with Juventus from 96/97 to 98/99.

3) You queried rhetorically and I quote, "Zidane won two against who? Certainly not against Riquelme's Boca Juniors?", but did not reply when it was pointed out to you that the second of the two Intercontinental Cups that Zidane won came against an Olimpia team in 2002 who had beaten Riquelme's double libertadores wining Boca in the QFs of the 2001-02 Libertadores season.

4) You tried to belittle the Zidane WC 98 performance by stating and I quote, "I agree with your point about stats, that not only applies to Zidane, but to many players, in particular I would say Xavi Hernandez, who must have an incredible record in terms of secondary assists." When called out on the fact that Spain had managed to score only one goal per game in the 2010 WC you changed tactic and tried to give a reason for this by stating and I quote again, "You do know that Spain 2010 did, at times, played practically without a striker", when in fact this point should have given you cause to stop typing that statement regarding Xavi at the very beginning itself.

These examples above along with the examples given earlier are enough to show that you in fact do not do any research before making a comment and go mostly by memory (considering that some of these are rather easy to check), what seems to be a very prejudiced memory at that.

The point was not to prove you wrong but to showcase to you the fact that you do make statements without doing proper reasearch. That seems to be amply proved by this example and the other examples that I listed above from your previous posts regarding Zidane.

For the part of your comment, after the quote from my post that you bolded -

Can you please read the whole sentence before responding to it? It negates the point of having a discussion on a forum where this is the only medium of communication, if you do not do so.

What I wrote was "finally losing to Arsenal in the 2nd leg after getting a more favorable result in the first leg than was done by Riquelme's Villareal". Where did I say that the exact same team from 05/06 (except for Riquelme) reached the CL QFs? Hell, I even mentioned the big names who were missing (Forlan, Tacchinardi, Arrubarena) along with Riquelme.

Dude, this clutching at straws without even reading what is written doesn't exactly make you look favourable, not at least in terms of being a person with whom serious discussions can be had.

You had indicated earlier that the way Riquelme took over that match and what he did in it for Villareal to beat Inter was something that Zidane could not have replicated. So the expectation was to find something transcendental. Instead what we find is that Riquleme lost the ball more often in a 7 minute compilation than Zidane did in the whole match against Milan, and that Riquelme had a few moments which though beautiful were ultimately fruitless (except for his throughball to Forlan which Forlan shot wide on). His one assist came from a set piece in a match where his side had around 8 such opportunities and wherein his delivery was poor enough for the match commentary to make note of it. That is hardly a performance which cannot be replicated by Zidane.

So the point I was trying to make was basically that your making such a claim in the first place was again a result of your lack of research and nothing more.

As for your point regarding the triple teaming and possession loss, it happened at the beginning of the match when Riquelme was fresh, so he was expected to at least win a freekick or to keep possession by passing the ball to a teammate or better yet to dribble all three players the way he did Veron and 2 others later. He however did not do any of those things and ended up simply losing possession, so it is not a positive in my book. And yes, regarding Riquelme's dribble past Veron and 2 other players ending in a shot into the stands and the shot on goal from the right wing brilliantly saved by the Inter goalie, as you can see, neither are in my list of negatives as I considered both to be great actions, however those are not actions that cannot be replicated by Zidane nor actions which ultimately mattered to the outcome of the match.

Lastly, that Zidane youtube clip does not show all actions of Zidane in that match (which is the reason why I chose to look at the complete match in the first place), particularly the number of times that Zidane won back possession (he played a part in winning back possession both the times that led to attacks which resulted in the two Bordeaux goals in the 2nd half). Nor does it show the beautiful inswinging freekick from the left wing near the end of the first half which Witschge failed to convert with a point blank header because he hit it right at the Milan goalie's body from inside the 6 yard box. So the 2 minute time difference is not really as important as you might feel. Of course, the Riquelme clip might be missing similar positive actions, however that was the reason why I looked at only negative actions in my original analysis.

As for aesthetics, Zidane dribbled and feinted beautifully at least a couple of times during that match to beat players like Baggio, Desailly etc. and had a number of rather imaginative passes that were intercepted and stopped from becoming substantial by that defence (due to which these actions ended up in the negatives list I shared above, as compared to Riquelme's negative's list which has more overhit passes and balls lost to tackles).

So again, what was the basis of your claim of this Riquelme performance being something that Zidane couldn't replicate?

Why ask the question in the first place if you are going to dismiss the answer out of hand? Seems like a waste of effort to me.

In any case, I would like add here that I have also watched all of Riquelme's performances against Real Madrid.

What false data? The Villareal 2008-09 point was nothing but you not reading my entire sentence while my analysis on Riquelme's vs Zidane's negative actions does not have fault unless you want to go into subjective points, so what false data?

And you did try and enter an argument on 'Zidane playing with Bordeaux' without the proper inputs as accepted by you above, so now where is the 'red herring'?

Lastly, you have made a lot of incorrect claims in the past (as listed in one of my responses in this post above), so how can anyone guarantee the credibility of anything that you say going forward?

 

As mentioned by me earlier, you come up with a lot of old points and this is one of those. The arguments against this point also have already been made. Anyway, here they go again.

1) The Juve team that won the CL in 1995/96 had as very important components Vialli, Ravanelli and Sousa. All of these were sold and a team with a new look attack was assembled at the beginning of the 96/97 season i.e. with Zidane, Vieri and Boksic. The only constant was Del Piero. So the fact that Juventus won the CL but lost the Serie A to Milan in 95/96 while managing to reach the CL final and winning a Serie A the next season and the season after that (which btw I consider to be equivalent achievements), is not a knock on Zidane at all.

In fact, considering that Riquelme won both his Libertadores titles after penalty shootouts in the finals, Zidane's first two CL finals losses do not seem any lesser at all.

2) Del Piero in 96/97 played just 22 games in the Serie A vs Zidane's 32 games and was not available in the Semi Final demolition of 95/96 CL finalists Ajax by Zidane and co. or in the beating given to AC Milan at the San Siro. This is reflected in the Balon D'or standings of Del Piero (20th with 3 ESM appearances) vs those of Zidane (3rd with 2 ESM appearances). In 1997/98 Del Piero was indeed in fine form however Zidane was in better form as displayed by his 5 ESM monthly apperances to Del Piero's 2 (can't take Balon d'Or here as it was a WC year) and Zidane's winning the UEFA Midfielder of the year on the back of his club performances. So to say that Del Piero's knee injury should be considered as being the sole reason impacting the Serie A standing of Juventus in 98/99 seems unfair when Del Piero was not being considered to be the most valuable Juventus player by most individual awards presenters of that time.

The real reason for Juve's problems was that along with Del Piero all of Montero, Deschamps and Davids also got injured in November 1998. And while the latter two did manage to return within a month from their injuries, Montero took longer (playing only 22 league matches that season), while Zidane also kept suffering from a persistent knee problem which made him miss a lot of games and playing time (vs Roma, Venezia, Bologna, Parma, Peruggia, Lazio, Milan, Bari) ending up featuring in only 25 games (only 20 with minimum 70 minutes played). He finally underwent knee surgery after Juventus lost to Manchester United in the CL semis (played with a knee brace in the 1st leg at Old Trafford). These along with Inzaghi's unavailability for 10 games in that season along with defensive mistakes due to unavailability of 1st choice defenders and mistakes made by Van Der Saar cost a lot of points for Juventus that season in the Serie A thus leading to their low standing.

Thus your assertion regarding Del Piero's injury being the cause of Juve's poor form in 98/99 seems to be rather incorrect as along with him a lot of other key players were also injured and so was Zidane during that season.

European Pedigree - Milan had featured in 5 CL/ECC finals in the 7 years prior to that season winning 3 of those. It was a team who had not been beaten by a 3 goal margin (incidentally the same margin required by Bordeaux in the 2nd leg to qualify for the semis without resorting to a PK shootout) since 1978 in Europe.

Domestic Results - Milan beat Serie A champions and CL Champions in waiting Juventus at home and drew with them away in the Serie A and won it 8 points ahead of them that season.

Interesting method of trolling btw.

Because Milan in 94/95 finished in 4th, 13 points behind Champions Juventus which though similar to Inter's results in 04/05 who finished 3rd, 14 points behind Champions Juventus, was not enough as the rule relaxation allowing non-champions to enter the CL had not yet been implemented.

The Real Madrid that Riquelme beat neither had its 1999-2000 CL winning season UEFA Player of the year (Redondo) nor its 2001-02 CL winning season UEFA Player of the year (Zidane). Also, as I understand, that was a great Boca Team for which Riquelme was playing, so comparing his performance in that match to Zidane's (who was not playing for as good a team) against Milan is unfair IMO.

 

Boca Jrs is a bigger club than any European side besides Real Madrid.

Riquelme won three Libertadores, the third was in 07 when Boca Jrs steamrolled Gremio in both final matches. Also, the Boca Jrs that played the Intercontinental final against Real Madrid had lost Samuel and Arruabarrena from the side that had won the Libertadores.

 

Well Real Madrid were also missing Salgado and their second leading scorer in Morientes in that game too, Mori also scored in the final against Valencia.

Really? that's news to me, in what sense? Bigger than Barca, AC Milan, Juventus, Manchester United and Liverpool?

 

It doesn't matter whether it's news to you or not, Boca Jrs is bigger in any sense than those teams.

 

Again on what basis and repeating "Boca is bigger in any sense than those team's" is probably not going to hold much weight.

 

Duplicitous? That's a new one, but anyways essentially what you are saying is that the like's of AC Milan, Barcelona, Man Utd and Liverpool basically are/were considered the World's biggest club's due to the notable success in the last decade, prior to the last decade it would be questionable to think otherwise.... is basically what you are saying.

That or you simply assumed that my opinion was swayed more by the fact that the above mentioned team's had notable dominance (Not that Boca didn't see it's fairshare of silverware during that period) in the last decade or so. Not considering the possibility that I may have taken the previously mentioned team's histories into account.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what James posted and his opinion of Boca "being a little club" is not my concern, I don't know where you getting my supposed validation from

Again did you even bother reading my comment? Did you you see me claiming that Boca is not historically a big club? My response was to Pipiolo who claimed that Boca Junior's is the second biggest club in the world after Real Madrid, then going on to ask the poster to explain in further detail what he meant.

To clear thing's up do I believe that Boca Juniors is historically a big club, yes.

 

JamesBH is jealous that any of the Brazilian clubs lack the mystique and success of the rioplatense giants: Boca Jrs and River Plate.

 

I chose to ignore your question because I felt it would be insulting to defend Boca Jrs as a big club, but since you have clarified a bit some of your points, here is my answer: Boca Jrs is bigger than all those teams on trophies won: Intercontinental Cup + Copa Libertadores + league championships.