YSA Chant

dlm: the issue has been put before you over and over again, and you choose to ignore it or at least make very little attempt to deal with it.

I find it humourous that you think attendance is down because the Fire does not cater enought to the type of fans that want to yell YSA.

There are so many more potential ticket buyers in families then the section 8 variety. If we were in Europe, South America, etc, it might be different. We are not.

I would venture to say that ticket prices are higher here. In those countries a soccer game is cheap entertainment. It is not so here. The bulk of your crowd has to come from families. They have the disposable income and they have the numbers.

You ignore every other sport where kids and families are not only welcome they are encouraged. Yes, profanity exists in the crowds there, but I have never heard an organized chant that involved profanity last very long. the only thing I can think of is the BS chant in basketball after a bad call. But that hasn't lasted very long and is sporadic.

So please deal with the core issue. Why would you want to yell a pointless silly chant that is offensive to some when this chant alone adds no revenue and clearly reduces revenue? The atmosphere would be no worse, and in fact would be better, if YSA was discontinued.

It's pretty sad if section 8 can only be relevant if it uses profanity.

I agree with the person that said that section 8 was much more relevant and effective when it was yelling "orange seats, orange seats, who's the best?" to a crowd in excess of 20k. Don't tell me the "atmosphere" was any worse because they didn't say who's the best A-holes?

Okay, to challenge your "alcohol" analogy. Traditional Jews will spend the Sabbath in prayer and then continue immediately with food and conversation and yes alcohol. I can also tell you that profanity is not allowed there.

I'm thinking we can come up with many more examples to refute your half baked theory, but I think its better if we stay on point, which was revenue.

By the way, you said a 7 year old has to buy his own ticket before you care about his opinion. What is the difference if someone buys a ticket for the child or someone's spouse or girlfriend. Do they not count? I thought the ticket cost the same whether or not you paid for it. I can assure you that its the same in the Fire's bank account.

 

One more thing...apparently the Fire disagrees....

hence the Sparky's kids club, autograph sessions after the game, the very pronounced sales effort at youth soccer leagues, etc

But I guess in your book, the sales staff and the fire don't know what they are doing.

 

Here's a question: has the Fire organization ever asked us to stop? Maybe Guppy will, soon, but it's not up to Section 8 to protect the Fire's interests (though we are concerned). If the Fire think they are losing tickets because of S8's chanting, they should say so. I think the atmosphere provided by section 8 is a bigger selling point than a few mild profanities a game is a deterrent.

And here's another solution: If they don't like hearing "a-hole," then they can chant louder than us and drown it out. They out-number us, it should be easy...

 

From what I understand section 8 was asked to stop in naperville.

 

The point wasn't that section 8 doesn't provide atmosphere. It absolutely does. No question. But the YSA chant has nothing to do with that and in fact detracts from the atmosphere.

The rest of the chants encourage the rest of the stadium to participate and provides MORE atmosphere. The use of YSA deliberately pits section 8 vs other fans and creates less atmosphere.

So answer this, do you think section 8 can provide the same level of atmosphere without YSA?

 

Why do you think you are outnumbered? And if that's the case, why would you do something that reduces the overall attendance and increase the possibility that you won't have the fire in the future. You can sit on your principles all day long, but it won't do much for you when there is no domestic soccer league. Now, I'm not saying that one chant will do this. But there are posts in this thread that seem to indicate that the Fire should cater to section 8 and the like to the exclusion of everyone else. I merely argue that we should try to make everyone happy.

 

YSA doesn't hurt attendance, it might keep a few away but that's it and I am fine with that. I don't want the soccer mom/dad and kids who complain about language at Fire games away. It's a group chant now, later it will be any swearing at all, whether a group in unison or just one person upset in the heat of the game. Fans in other stadiums encounter that exact scenario. We need to erase the different standard held to soccer game compared to other sporting events. You don't see NFL fans get hassled for swear words, nor do you see others complaining about it. It's accepted that if you go to a game, you and your kids might hear language you don't like. I remember going to games as a kid and my dad would always tell me not to repeat any bad words I might hear.

Having said all that, I don't care if it goes away or stays, provided it's the group that chooses. Now if David Brent comes and tells us we will be thrown out for yelling it, then I'd have a problem

BTW... who is the Fire fan in Section 8 who has his kid cover his ears during YSA?

 

Oh, ok. You say it doesn't hurt attendance. I guess everyone else who actually had examples were lying. Case Closed, snake eyes says it doesn't hurt attendance.

I have never seen anyone complain about language in the crowd. So if we can get back to the point, its about a group chant.

 

I love Section 8 and all the chants other than the YSA. I have a problem with this chant for the important reason that many of us want soccer to be a family-friendly sport. Most parents don't want their kids using foul language, which becomes more difficult if a respected group of adults, such as Section 8, is using YSA in a chant. My wife doesn't particularly enjoy the YSA chant either. I also recall PW saying he did not like that chant for the same reason when I asked his opinion a few years ago. I, too, am disappointed that those who disagree with the originator of this thread would be so hostle and irreverent to his well-thought-out comments. I've been a season ticket holder for several years and will continue to come to every home game whether or not Section 8 gives up the chant, but I would feel much better if they could come up with a replacement.

 

That absolutely does not match my thoughts on the world at all, but if you want to try to rail on without a clue, it's a marvelous place to start. If you want to continue without a clue, perhaps you can move on to tell us how the league should be more like England and we need to pay huge bank for some big names if we ever want to succeed.

Attendance is what it is, I am not speculating as to why it is down...I am pointing out that there are a bunch of folks who have proven that they will show up for 8 years and they enjoy the chant. If you want to piss off those folks, go ahead, but they are the only PROVEN commodity in this equation.

Now, to poke a hole in another one of you probable gasbag theories, I neither sit in section 8 nor do I participate in the YSA chant....I just find it ridiculous bordering on the MORONIC to try to douse anyone that is showing up and supporting for years.

Potential means squat. If they want a voice, they need to buy a seat, if they don't pay to come to the games they should matter dick all compared to the folks that *do* show up.

the core issue is if someone is such a friggin pantywaist that the word offends them, I don't want them there. Let them keep their money. The chant only "clearly" reduces anything in the minds of morons who point to apocryphal stories and claim it must be universally true. That is how friggin VOODOO works. There is no actual evidence of any kind that YSA affects attendance ONE WAY or the other. That doesn't stop clueless dippys from coming to these boards and blaming YSA for everything from the current poor performance of the American Dollar to Mad Cow. It's about as proven in those cases as it is in this one....but don't let the non-existence of evidence stop you, you have a crackpot idea and this is the internet, you must be right.

You want to dictate the behavior of the section, sit there and try to make it happen, you want to comment on it here, you're pissin in the wind.

Evidently you skipped the primary grades where they taught reading and comprehension...the alcohol theory is not mine, and I said I don't agree with it, just that it has SOME merit.

Because the person buying them the ticket is their de facto guardian, and therefor responsible for the kid. It is not the job of the Fire, the Stadium or ME to act in loco parentis (need to pause and look that up? I can wait).

The actual core issue is that we have people who have latched onto a theory they want to blame for things and want to dictate the behavior of others. The folks in the section paid their money, have been paying it for years and enjoy the chant. When it gets old for them, it will go away....but anyone sitting here arguing that everyone in the stands needs to self censor to make this place a safe haven for children needs to just die in a #&^#&ing fire already.

 

it's about a group chant... for now. It won't be later. We cannot give in to this soccer mom/dad and kid friendly crap. Especially since we don't know what will happen with Guppy in charge long term. We don't want a sterile, kiddie sporting event which is what an MLS game is when this group of people is pandered too and controls things.

 

Peter Wilt's post in 2003.

Sorry i haven't been able to address this earlier - long day yesterday and busy day today. Regarding the Fire's profanity policy and the incidents last night:

As most of you know, last year around this time, due to pressures from season ticket holders, new Fire fans and Naperville officials, we had to address the issue of organized chants with profanity.

I met with leadership of the Barnburners, Ultras and Arsonists over a few beers last June at a north side pub to discuss. We negotiated the following agreement.

The Fire agreed to:

1) Post signs indicating Section 8 was a place to stand, cheer and wear red.
2) Create fund raisers thru 50/50 raffle for BB and Ultras.
3) Allow occasional extemporaneous swearing from individual fans if there wasn't a previous warning i.e. "That call sucked! You f****** ref."
4) Allow construction of the "conductor stand" to lead cheers.
5) Provide a warning first to individuals using profanity that they would be ejected if they repeated participation in organized chanting with profanity.
6) Every other request the BB, Ultras and Arsonists leadership made in that meeting.

The Barnburners, Ultras and Arsonists agreed to:

1) Stop using profanity in organized cheers.


The Fire lived up to every end of our agreement.

We posted explanatory letters at games, on Big Soccer and on the Fire fan email list. The policy and agreement were discussed ad nauseum.

Liam, and any other regular Section 8 fan, knew the policy. He was warned, he repeated the policy breach, so he was ejected.

We don't ask for much. I believe we provide a lot. I am disappointed that Section 8 has not lived up to the only item in the agreement they were responsible for. We (Leadership of the BB, Ultras, Arsonists and Fire) all AGREED to this policy. If any members of the Barnburners, Ultras or Arsonists has a problem with this agreement, then they should take it up with the leadership of Section 8. The policy has been in effect since the agreement with the Section 8 leadership was made and will continue.

Best Regards,

peter

 

A ticket here and a ticket there from a little anecdotal evidence is worthless. A few tickets lost over YSA is worthless IMO. You cant please everyone. If they gagged S8, if people were pulled outta S8 for swearing, like what happens in KC, they will lose ticket sales that way too. I'd bet it would be more than the number who don't go because of YSA.

 

What's your point in reposting that?

 

You were referring to my comment that I thought you had said that the YSA chant increased attendance.

I apologize, you did not say that. It was someone else.

That's never been my opinion. I never said that in this thread. You are coming out of left field.

They are a valuable commodity, but to say they are the only PROVEN commodity is ridiculous. Do you not realize that there are probably more long term season ticket holders outside section 8 than in section 8?

This is where you totally expose yourself as incapable of truly discussing a topic. You take the liberty of poking a hole in a theory that you say I probably hold. I probably hold? Wow, that's clever. Ascribe a theory to me and then dispute the theory that I never said I have.

They have come. Now some don't come because of the point brought up in the first point. You did read the first post didn't you? It doesn't seem like it.

Umm, no. You wrote it. Read post #33 again.

You wrote in post #33 "If the item in question, be it restaurant, sporting event, what have you serves liquor, then quite clearly, it's purpose in life is ADULT ENTERTAINMENT. Things that are not appropriate for children can and will happen, we deal with them as best we can, but trying to assume that this place is supposed to be child friendly from the word go is a non-starter."

No wonder its so hard to argue with you DLM. You can't even remember what you wrote.

 

You are referring to my repost of Peter's post in 2003. 352gialloblu wrote,

"Here's a question: has the Fire organization ever asked us to stop? Maybe Guppy will, soon, but it's not up to Section 8 to protect the Fire's interests (though we are concerned). If the Fire think they are losing tickets because of S8's chanting, they should say so. I think the atmosphere provided by section 8 is a bigger selling point than a few mild profanities a game is a deterrent."

So I reposted Peter's comments to show that the Fire organization clearly asked section 8 to stop. They didn't. They haven't.

 

They only asked them to stop while at Naperville. Section 8 complied as best as they could, leading other songs during goal kicks. They don't have to stop now, and they haven't.

 

I'm done on this item as it is clear that we should agree to disagree. What seems logical to you and several others is the opposite of what I and several others think about the effect on attendance. We'll never get the other to change their mind. I'll leave it at that for this item.

 

Your reading what you want to read. His post says due to concerns from (first) season ticket holders, (second) New Fire fans and (third) Naperville officials.

Season ticket holders are season ticket holders, not just Naperville season ticket holders. Do you think they weren't ok with it in Naperville, but ok with it in Chicago? That makes no sense.

 

Yeah, and that is relevant how? The items in play were the S8 folks chanting YSA vs the fictional sea of folks who don't come because of YSA. Other season ticket holders are not and were not part of the equation.

Unless you want to document this clearly, with evidence, then you don't have a point. It's completely apocryphal. "I know this guy who knew a guy who did this". Even if you have direct knowledge of a case of this, it is knowledge of A case of this. No-one in the world has actual, reasonable and supportable evidence of YSA affecting attendance in any broad manner becase no-one has ever actually studied it.

We just have yahoos who firmly believe that any idea they can think of must be objectively true based on their own assertions.

Touche, was in the middle of a different argument and actually posted in a manner that does not match my beliefs. I do not subscribe to the "liquor" theory for many reasons....most of them can be listed by naming any number of chain restaurants cloning themselves off of TGI Fridays....however, I *do* believe that a professional soccer match is not at it base supposed to be a "child safe" environment. Child friendly, sure, child safe, no.

If you can't handle some bumps, you shouldn't be there.


However, none of that gets us past your willingness to assert proof that does not exist...which sort of leaves me with pointing and laughing as the only available response to your posts.

 

Smaller, intimate stadium where sound easily reaches everyone in attendance vs massive cavernous stadium where sound seems to be sucked out like a vacuum and isn't heard by many or easily understood.

 

Time to open myself up to quite a bit of flames.

I've read through this thread and seen a terrible omen. Instead of realizing that the majority of what they do is positive for the overall atmosphere of the game and agreeing to self-censor (Key word: self) a single chant that is offensive on a large scale, several of the Section 8 regulars are refusing to yield - claiming free speech, that they are owed, and other selfish reasons - to help increase overall attendance.

Get over yourself.

While you will never hear it come from my mouth - or many others in MLS - that supporters groups should be stifled by front office policy for the benefit of the family fan, this is ridiculous. Section 8 is second only to the Screaming Eagles, Barra Brava, et. al. in their passionate support of their team. That is a positive.

But perhaps you are being a bit too short-sighted in your support of this chant. Admittedly, there are only a few anecdotal accounts of people choosing not to purchase tickets to Fire matches as a result of this one chant. But even in light of the anecdotal nature of these accounts, they bring up a valid concern.

One anecdotal account does not a trend make, but several do. There is evidence of a trend of people choosing not to purchase tickets because of the actions of Section 8. Major League Soccer, despite the name and hopes to the contrary, is not yet a major league sport in the United States. While we may not like it, we have to court all of the fans possible, whether family or hardcore. Pardon the choice of words, but we have to whore ourselves to a certain degree to help the front office develop attendance. If there are several anecdotal accounts of people choosing not to return, how many THOUSANDS of people have they told about that decision? And from that, how many TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars of ticket revenue is lost as a result?

The Chicago Fire front office under Peter Wilt has made amazing concessions to the Section 8 leadership to help create a setting where a tremendous atmosphere can be created. I am jealous of that, and wish that the Kansas City front office would have taken that same tack.

Collectively you could choose to be a bigger man and try to stamp out that chant. But instead, you seem to be choosing to hold on to the chant in some irrational show of group power and unity.

I hope you see the error of your ways and choose as a group to abolish that chant.

And any bit of red nipples you choose to throw my way won't bother me in the slightest.

 

I dont see it as power and unity I see it as a slippery slope to something worse. It's organized chant today, tomorrow its heat of the moment reactions.