YNT post-mortem: U.S. players born '93-'96

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by Dave Marino-Nachison, Mar 30, 2016.

  1. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    Now that the 2016 Olympics aren't a thing, and loads of players no longer have YNT careers to worry about/look forward to/hold out for/etc., it might be a good opportunity to collect thoughts about what we learned about four birth years of players.

    Thoughts? Who's on track for World Cup roster spots? Who's going to bloom late? Who got left out? Who had bad luck? And so on.

    Some of these questions are pretty easy. Others, less so...
     
  2. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    #2 Dave Marino-Nachison, Mar 30, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2016
    Some data -- here's the 2013 U20 qualifying list:

    Steffen Zach
    Rodriguez Mario
    Cropper Cody
    O'Neill Shane
    Villareal Jose
    McIntosh Kendall
    Stanko Caleb
    Torre Javan
    Gil Luis
    Garcia Danny
    Joya Benji
    Trapp Will
    Lopez Mikey
    Miller Eric
    Cuevas Daniel
    Ocegueda Juan Pablo
    Allen Brandon
    Kiesewetter Jerome
    Serna Dillon
    Okwuonu Boyd
    These additional guys made the Finals:

    Acosta Kellyn
    Yedlin DeAndre

    Hernandez Alonso
    Sorto Oscar
    Pineda Victor
    Guys with MNT caps in bold, unless I missed some.

    That group also includes Jordan Morris, Brooks, Pelosi, Guido, Zimmerman and others.

    A couple of big target forwards, McBean and Salgado, are also part of this group.

    Among YAs, Shawn Parker might still be in play; we never saw the Ashton Goetz callup we might've expected; and some guys appear "gone," like Toljan and Saief.


     
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  3. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    The only conclusion that I can make, currently, is that Trapp is completely overrated. Too slow with the ball, regardless of how well he can pass in MLS. He doesn't get that type of time at the international level and he gives it up way too easily. Turnover waiting to happen.

    I'd like to see more of Villarreal at some point. What's going on with him?
     
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  4. Smithsoccer1721

    Smithsoccer1721 Member+

    Feb 16, 2007
    Middle of the Table
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am not sure why but Trapp has looked like he is playing in slow motion this season. The only thing I can think of his that he is sooo comfortable he doesn't feel rushed to make a pass which means he holds he ball longer than he should. At the end of last year he was pinging the ball around very quickly.
     
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  5. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Deandre Yedlin is probably going to be the guy who gets the most caps out of this pool. His position and skill set aren't deep whereas we actually have a lot of central defenders and Brooks health has not been consistent.

    Obviously those two guys are already fixtures in the senior team.

    Horvath really has a chance to challenge Hamid for the Guzan back up / successor role in a year or two.

    Miazga has a high ceiling if he dedicates himself to improving his weaknesses.

    Acosta might be doomed by his versatility as the us staff seem obsessed with using his skills to fill holes and put out fires. But I see him being a regular call up if not starter in a few years.

    If Trapp can keep improving his positioning and mental consistency he could hit a Beckerman level of usefulness for us.

    Parker is a good player in a very crowded field. Might just be a numbers game.

    Hyndmann will be a regular for the Qatar qualifying cycle I think.

    Jordan Morris needs to show consistency in adapting to the pro game. Jury is still out.

    Other guys like Gil, Villareal, Stanko, Canouse, a few others I'm probably forgetting could still get into the conservation in a few years. You never know when guys like Herc Gomez can pop up on good form.
     
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  6. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Even more depressing reading is the U17 rosters from this age group.
    May I present the 2011 U17 World Cup roster. Acosta has already been capped by the full national team. It wouldn't shock me if he's the only one from this group to get caps. Obviously Serna, Arriola, and Pelosi have a chance.

    I know we expect a certain percentage of players from each U17 group to not advance, but this seems to have been a particularly poor one. Amazing how many players in this age group we talked about endlessly, that never have gone anywhere. Mobi Fehr?


    upload_2016-3-30_12-6-11.png
     
  7. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    I know "we" (as we like to say in all of our posts) expect this, but ... what is the number we're supposed to expect? I've never studied it, so I have no idea.
     
  8. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Yedlin and Brooks are already NT regulars, and should be regulars with the NT for a long time. Both should be over 100 caps eventually.

    I think there's a good chance of Horvath, Miazga, Trapp, Arriola, Vincent, Payne and Acosta being NT regulars eventually. They should get to 20 caps, maybe one or two gets to 100. The chances are that I'll be wrong on a few of them. Maybe 5 out of the 8 reach 20 caps? Rubin wasn't on this roster due to fitness, but I'd add him to this group of players.

    I think there's a chance with players like Polster, Alashe, Hyndman, Gil, Cropper to have some role eventually, but I don't think any of them reach 20 caps.

    Green, Flores and Stefen are different cases. I'm not going to put him them into any categories. They are supremely talented, but need first team pro minutes, which has caused some to question their ability. They have the talent to match nearly any of these players, but its time for them to prove themselves with a professional first team.

    There are a few others that weren't on this roster that I think could get a few NT caps eventually like Canouse, Dia, Villarreal, Pelosi, Jonathan Campbell, Alejandro Guido, Amando Moreno, Christian Dean, Kempin or maybe they just turn into decent pro's, but not NT level talents.

    There will also likely be a few players who aren't currently on the YNT or NT radar that turn out to be helpful NT players.

    Overall, I think we get the same number of helpful NT players as usual, maybe there's a chance for a UCL level defensive type, but I think its unlikely that this group produces many creative attacking players for the NT.
     
  9. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Out of the U17s I pretty much am happy with 1 to 2 regular USMNT players. U20s are a different story but maybe as we move away from only calling in Bradenton kids for the U17s we can have more.
     
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  10. ucraymond

    ucraymond Member

    Mar 18, 2006
    While of course there are some pretty good players - I mean, kids didn't stop playing soccer in the USA - it's a pretty dismal return for a 4-year generation of players. But we sort of knew that by the 2013 World Cup. My overall conclusion: the expectations that some people placed on the introduction of MLS academies and the DA proved to be delusional. Or at least, wildly premature.

    My sense is that people expect a lot more out of the next Olympic cycle, based on actual accomplishments of the players this time. We'll see.
     
  11. Maitreya

    Maitreya Member+

    Apr 30, 2007
    Providence, RI
    The deepest year from '93-'96 is '95, which is not ideal for competing at the U-23 level, especially when your '95s have to make up for having so few promising '94s period. There was a decent core of '93s to work with, but injuries (e.g. Stanko), full national team integration (Brooks, Yedlin), and players not improving (e.g. Gil, Trapp) took their toll.
     
  12. Balerion

    Balerion Member+

    Aug 5, 2006
    Roslindale, MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just a minor bone to pick, I wouldn't throw around 100 caps so casually. There's a lot that has to happen over a long period of time. Lalas, McBride, Harkes, Cberundolo, Hejduk, Pope, and Friedel are all guys who fell short. Onyewu didn't even get to 70.

    Players who were able to run up the score with all the games prior to the 1994 World Cup have a distinct advantage. There are a very select few who started their NT careers in the late 1990s and early 2000s who made it. You have to be really good, but injuries take their toll. Not just in the John O'Brien catastrophic sense, but also in the Jonathan Spector sense of having a bunch of lesser injuries chip away at physical attributes until the player isn't viable for the USMNT any more.
     
  13. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I think there's an interesting trend in the players we've produced. There's about 10-12 year period (around '85 to '97) where we have produced and currently are producing some very good defensive players. The likes of Bradley, Cameron, Besler, Gonzalez, Hamid, Guzan(Guzan's a Septemeber '94, so I'm counting him) FJ, etc. to add to the youth defensive players (Horvath, Steffen, Yedlin, Payne, Brooks, Miazga, Parker, Vincent, Trapp, Acosta) are pretty good. We certainly are not struggling for defensive talent on the current NT. What we are struggling for is offensive talent in this dozen year stretch. Besides Altidore who himself is a flawed player, who's the next most accomplished? Bedoya? It certainly isn't a talented list, and if you add the attacking players of the current generation that didn't qualify, its not much better. Its so bad that a 17 year old with about 100 pro minutes might be our best attacking midfielder.

    '97 seems to be the first year where there is a mix of both, or at least it seems that way right now. The likes of Carter-Vickers, Redding, Palmer-Brown, A. Robinson, Glad of the defensive players and the likes of Akale, Lennon, Zelalem, Ebobisse of attacking players. Prior to the current group that is now playing for the NT that lacks offense but is good defensively, the previous era had the likes of Donovan and Dempsey, the two best offensive players we've had to this point. I hope the next dozen year stretch (and beyond) from '97 will be the turning point of where we start to produce equally talented offensive and defensive players, and aren't rotating producing top offensive and defensive players depending on the era (give or take a few years). If we can do that, and we are getting competent coaching, we could improve as a NT.

    * I'm aware we didn't produce the likes of FJ, Brooks, Carter-Vickerse, A. Robinson, but they are currently playing for the USA, so I'm counting them with our program.
     
  14. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 19, 2008
    Colorado
    Club:
    FC Metalist Kharkiv
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Was going to say I'll take any bet 1-1 that Brooks doesn't get to 100 caps.

    I'd take decent odds Yedlin doesn't either just because his game is almost 100% speed and that wears off quicker.
     
  15. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Assuming no injuries that take years of their NT careers, no early retirements, no falling out with the coach. etc. We got 5 from two recent consecutive 4 year periods that stretch all the way from Howard to Bradley. If Yedlin and Brooks are the two superstars of this 4 year generation, and they are currently the leaders in terms of caps, shouldn't they be 2 of the 2.5 that get there?

    Yedlin's already at 31 caps. If he averages 10 for the next 7 years (he's averaged 14.5 in his first two years), he'll be at 100. That'll get him to age 30 with 100 caps. With his current average, he also has some margin for error, whether thats a year long injury, a year of poor form where he's not in the NT picture, a year where he falls out with the manager.

    Brooks is right now at 18 caps, so he's a little less likely to get there. Assuming Brooks gets games at the Copa America (no guarantee, TBF), he should be low/mid 20's through his first three years, which puts him around 7-8 per year. If he can increase that to 10 per year, and plays for another 8 years (to age 32), he'll get to 100. Less likely than Yedlin, but barring career ending/altering injuries, early retirements, falling out with the coach, he should also get there.
     
  16. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Maybe part of the problem is folks like me expected every cycle to match the original 1999 U17 cycle. How many combined USMNT caps are there between Donovan, Beasley, Convey, Onyewu, and Beckerman? 5 World Cup starters is probably more than we can expect.

    If we're assuming (a huge assumption) that Bradenton rosters are the best 15-17 year old prospects in the country, I think we can expect at least two to develop into World Cup STARTERS and key players for the USMNT.

    I can actually see not a single World Cup starter from that 2011 U17 team.
     
  17. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    For current/future reference -- work in progress.

    http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/any-volunteers-for-a-research-project.2030487/

    The 2007 team has also not yielded much in the way of high-impact players.

    I think the base assumption probably needs refinement. It's probably safe to say the players picked were somewhere in the top X00 for their age group at that moment in time, but given developmental differences, exposure, scouting, Bradenton-specific issues, dual-citizenship worries, European passports, injuries and other things -- even just coaching tastes and lineup/positional needs -- I'd discount it even further.

    All this probably indicates is is how well a given coach used the tools at his disposal at a given time.

    A comparison of the entire pool would be more useful, but who has the time -- he said semi-ironically...

    (And a comparison to something comparable for other countries would be even better.)
     
  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Yo Vexy... I'm not sure Trapp is rated so highly, but rather campaigned for by one poster. He's a decent little player by our standards, but limited as well. He had a pretty solid first half but the next three were not good. My take is that his performances was the result of a couple of things. One, he looked to try to do too much, forcing plays that weren't on and skipping the simpler option. Two, the speed and quality of the opponent was more than he is used to and struggled with it and/or didn't calibrate to it appropriately.

    I think he could be a quicker version of Beckerman with less bite, but think if he really wants a shot with the national team he'll need to raise his game another level. However, to do that, I think he needs a move... More so than most as I think he role he tries to play, changes quite a bit at higher levels and he's got to figure out how to overcome his deficiencies.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Of this group, there is one player that I'd bring to the copa this summer... Emerson Hyndman. I think he can challenge for a spot now and has huge upside. There are few if any us players who have ever been as clean on the ball and such a smart player. In these two games, he showed he isn't a defensive liability, his physical limitations are overblown, and even still can handle the physical play. He did fine when pushed out wide and excelled when shifted centrally. He'll be out of contract, and worth putting him in the shop window.

    I think we have two serious goalkeeping prospects. That should produce somewhere between zero and two national team guys. I'd like to think they push each other and Steffen responds well from being the man for a while to having to fight to get another shot. Horvath has seemed a bit over rated to me based on his club situation but liked what I saw in the second leg.

    Both central backs have lots of potential. I'd like to see Parker get a look in qualifiers late in the the year if we clinch and Miazga to sort out his club situation to get back in a situation of playing in the summer or January by the latest.

    Payne looked shaky but improved as the game went on. He's still young so will wait for a couple of years to see what happens.

    I don't see Trapp as likely, but has a shot and Acosta is a possibility but not completely sold.

    Morris is a tough one. Speed, strength, a nose for going to goal.... But no left, blah, blah, blah. He's still a nice guy to bring on late at least.

    So Brooks, Yedlin, Hyndman, 0-2 GKs, another CD, maybe an outside back, and at least a late sub up top. That seems pretty good to me. The bar on the second half of our rosters will at least be raised.
     
  20. vexco

    vexco Member+

    Nov 2, 2013
    He takes too long to circulate the ball. Contrast that with how quickly Hyndman was circulating it and how much better Hyndman was at playing out of pressure. There is no way that anyone could watch those games and not tell me that Hyndman is not a better player than Trapp right now and he's only 19.
     
  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Fair observation, but something he can improve.

    Hyndman vs Trapp is a silly comparison. We could say MLS and Championship are similar leagues and Trapp has excelled in MLS while Hyndman has struggled to get consistent minutes... But we all know that doesn't matter. The player that is three years younger just outplayed the other by a wide margin.

    Now for the last part, it's hard to believe, but there is at least one.... I don't know either how somebody watches these games and decides " there's a good chance of Horvath, Miazga, Trapp, Arriola, Vincent, Payne and Acosta being NT regulars eventually. They should get to 20 caps, maybe one or two gets to 100." And that Hyndman is a level below... "there's a chance with players like Polster, Alashe, Hyndman, Gil, Cropper to have some role eventually, but I don't think any of them reach 20 caps. "
     
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  22. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Beckerman is a Klinsmann creation, sort of a Dieter Eilts but with even less talent (not that Eilts had much either).

    My reference for the U-20 is the 2001 team (not so accidentally following the 1999 U-17) - Onyewu, Beasley, Davis, Donovan, Convey, Martino, Casey, Buddle.

    Of course, there's always going to be a width vs. heights debate. Argentina (U-20 winner under Pekerman) had Nico Burdisso, Arca, Coloccini, Saviola, Maxi Rodriguez, D'Allessandro, Rosales, Alejandro Dominguez and the oft-forgotten and/or frequently neglected Willi Caballero. The US has three remaining players still in the game (Casey, Beasley, Davis); Argentina close to a dozen.

    Plus, you know, Argentina's guys played for bigger clubs for the last fifteen years.

    As to this past squad - Horvath will probably be the Qatar cycle starter; Miazga needs to put on about 15 pounds and 20 IQ points; Morris probably should not have signed with MLS; Parker seems like a poorman's Ryan Shawcross; Kiesewetter and Arriola could probably play inside as #8's, if someone is willing to give them a chance there internationally; Shelton hopefully will learn a bit under Villa and Viera.

    Horvath aside, this is Slim Pickens.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Yedlin is a single position player (unless we are listening to the insane dude who thinks that he is a midfielder), at any given point he needs just one RB who is better than him. Specialists don't play that many games. Brooks: maybe, but generally forwards/wingers and central midfielders go to 100.
     
  24. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    He'll be a better midfielder than Zusi within a year. Normal progression is from the front backwards - i.e, from the more attacking positions with clubs to less attacking on the national teams - but the US is quite bereft of talent in right midfield while several players, including Chandler, Cameron, Williams - and, perhaps, even Kiesewetter - can play right fullback.

    And, by the way, this "out of position" nonsense ought to stop right away. Whatever happened to "total football"? Obviously, the morons in the US media - fans are forgiven for their ignorance - never heard of it.
     
  25. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Total football died last month. And nobody is using the stupid term for the last 20 years anyway.
    Tell us more about Malofeyev and sincere football.
     

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