No, I'm saying MLS production might be an indication of someone who has some talent. Not everybody can just walk in and score as many goals as Twellman has, so obviously he can do _something_ well. Twellman has talent, it just comes in a different package than guys like Donovan or McBride. I'd just like to see whether he can translate it to the national level. He's only a year older than Buddle too.
I don't feel you can compare what players do in MLS versus what they do with the nats. Two totally different things. It's a major assumption to think that these players, McBride, Donovan, some others, are not giving it their all in MLS simply because they don't have the numbers. They are asked to play different roles for their club teams than they are for the nats. Donovan, in particular, doesn't have the pressure for the MNT to "carry" them. And I'm not saying he's carrying the Quakes; what I am saying is his coach has said that Landon is the key for them; when he's playing well, the whole team plays well; when he's not playing well, the team suffers. Donovan doesn't have that kind of pressure to deal with for the nats. What some people see as players "taking it easy" for their clubs because they're not playing at such a high level, intense game as they do for the nats, could just be these players taking on more responsibility and having to think a whole lot more about their teammates, etc., and they don't have free-wheeling range to just play. Every moment can't be high-light reel material, and when it's not you can't say they're slacking off.
Twellman will get more opportunities with the nats. He just needs to get them with guys like Reyna, Donovan, Lewis etc instead of guys like Klien and Olson. He certainly has the heart and the talent to play international soccer. He is faster than most people think and he is very very good in the air. As good as McBride? pretty close. I have been watching him since day one and everything about him screams national team. He will get his chances and he will score. Wynalda might be jumping the gun about his scoring title but I have faith that Twellman will score on the international scene, whethers its against st.croix or Germany he will get a few before he hangs up his cleats. Qualifying starts prettys soon and I am sure he will get his chances. As much as i like the guy he may turn into a McManaman and play great for club and not so great for country. Look at Ralson, his first 5 caps were crap, look at his last 5. He was certain one of the best players on the field for those games and nobody can argue that. the difference he said was that he tried so hard to impress the first few times he got really hard on himself and screwd up. ALways thinking it would be his last chance. He was almost correct. This time he said he just went with the flow and what ever happened he would live with. Could it be Taylor is just trying so hard to impress he is taking himself out of the game like Ralston did?
Um, the answer to your question is yes! production IS more important. if you have talent, but never produce, who the heck cares! and second of all, the only way you can TRULY determine someones talent is BY THEIR PRODUCTIVITY. if we keep hearing how great some players are, and their high talent level, upon what are we basing it? by the fact that they are "fast" and "athletic"? this is not the World Track Championship .........
Twellman Analysis Liverpool - Thanks for your balanced analysis, which explains both the attributes of Twellman and the challenges that he (and Buddle) face in taking their MLS successes to the next level. Doesn't seem like anybody but me read it, though.
First off, I am neither pro nor con on Twellman. But how many games does he need with the first team? Against whom? How many of the first team should there be? What about the risks of injury to players like Reyna and O'Brien playing in a friendly so Arena can look at Twellman? Coaching the national team isn't the same as in the video game, where you just pick the players with the highest scores. Part of Arena's job is to be able to project whether what he sees in other friendlies or at the club level will translate into international level. I think he's done a pretty good job of it so far.
Productive in what sense? Statistics? Look soccer is a game where you have to actually watch the game. The games I have seen show that McBride is "producing" in a sense of the world meaningful to soccer, not baseball, at a very high level in MLS this season. If you have to look at statistics, look at the Crew's record in games McBride has played versus those where he hasn't. Look, I get the point, but you don't have to do this. If you were the coach of the Nats (God forbid), you could simply watch the players in games and camp for the Nats. If they play better than the next guy, they play. If not, they sit. You don't have to make up silly rigid rules based on a couple of statements that may or may not be true.
McBride and Donovan and Mastroeni don't keep getting Nats invites because they are "fast" (McBride ain't) or athletic. They keep getting called in because they produce for the National Team. It's really this simple -- club form gets you in the door, but no further. You have to perform for the Nats to play for the Nats or to get invited to the Nats again.
Why the hell do you keep ignoring the obvious. Landon Donovan, DaMarcus Beasley, Eddie Lewis, Frankie Hejduk, Joe-Max Moore,...NONE OF THESE GUYS WERE PRODUCING FOR MLS OR WHATEVER CLUB THEY WERE PLAYING FOR. Lewis, Hejduk, and Moore weren't even PLAYING for their clubs. Just sitting on the bench. Now what esxcuse are you going to use for these guys being not only included on the squad but getting Playing Time in the world cup?
The answer is that he needs more than 200-250 minutes, which is all he has had to date. he played 40 or 50 minutes in 2 games at the Confed Cup, in which he got terribly sick when he arrived in france. he was slated to start until his unfortunate illness. before that, he played against Wales in Richmond, and he played well but didn't score. he played garbage time minutes in a couple of games before that. where is his big opportunity? In his first 650 minutes with the NATS, McBride scored ....... count 'em, ONE GOAL. Yet now, everyone would agree that he is one of our finest. Yet, Twellman gets 200 or so minutes at an even YOUNGER age than McBride was when he started, and we have nearly the whole american soccer loving population giving up on the guy. i just don't get it.
To perform for the NATS, you have to be playing for the NATS. 200 total minutes is not enough time for a guy who is eating up his league. I don't know if Twellman will ever be a star for the U.S., but I do know that he hasn't had the opportunity yet to show whether he can or he can't.
There is still a lot of time for Twellman, he's still young. But he's shown nothing on the international level yet. It's not like h's been unlucky to score goals, he's made NO discernable impact during the time he's been in. Jury is still out but he needs to start producing. However, he is by no means the best forward in American soccer.
Hey Martin, You know, I doubt we really disagree on the players all that much, as I have said that if I were playing a game to win today, I would absolutely pick McBride. You feel he's been better for the Crew than I do. So, we seem to disagree on a pretty low level here. I disagree more with your need to act like a condescending prick when you reply. If I'm so beneath you that you cannot reply without being an *#*#*#*#*#*#*#, why don't you just ignore me my ignorant ramblings? Until now, I've never directed anything rudely to you. Disagree all you want with what I am saying, but there is really no need to act like a dickhead.
Here's the deal: McBride is a player in the whole field, and someone to be reckoned with. That's the way it was at JK02, and that's the way it is when the Crew play Chicago. It's quite clear when you watch in person. TT is a player mainly in the final 1/3. At the international level, the U.S. has to work hard just to move the ball up into the final 1/3. McBride does more than his fair share in helping that process, especially by winning the ball on goal kicks and tracking back defensively to double team near midfield. TT's poacher skills are a luxury we can't afford if it is at the expense of McBride.
Look, it is nobody's fault that Twellman got sick during the Confederation Cup as his getting playing time was obviously a major goal of that tournament. Twellman will get another chance but Arena is not going to throw him out in a critical match when he has other proven options until Twellman does show him something in an international game. Voros -- I think Arena thinks that Kirovski has occasionally performed well for the Nats -- goal against Germany and in Jamaica in the last Hex. I agree. When the team is decimated by injuries, Arena will go with a player who has occasionally performed well over one wh never has, even if that is only because he has not yet had a real or fair chance. Nobody, if my tone is condescending, it is directed towards your argument (which obviously I think is not well-conceived), not you personally.
Actually, as mentioned he had a good chance saved against New Zealand. He also in the 2nd half was ready to slam a rebound into the net when Cory Gibbs got to it first and shanked the shot. He also picked up what would be called a secondary assist in MLS in the game (Klein's goal). I thought he had a pretty good game. His strike partner was Kirovski and his midfield was Klein, Armas, Stewart (at A-mid) and Lewis. It was also the last judgable shot he had. See that's the thing I don't understand. On the one hand statistics aren't supposed to mean anything because this isn't baseball so Twellman's MLS goals don't count. Then on the other hand, if Twellman plays well against New Zealand it doesn't matter because he didn't score. If the argument is, Twellman isn't good enough, fine. If that's the case, Twellman should never have gotten a second of playing time for the National team regardless of his play for the Revs. But generally I'm extremely skeptical of _anyone_ who is 100% convinced of exactly how good a player is and especially what he will become. And it doesn't matter how they reached that decision, I'm skeptical. To be good at evaluating talent, particularly when judging future potential, you have to have an understanding of the level of uncertainty there is to your evaluations. Twellman may never be any good for the Nats, but that's an evaluation that at the moment has a fair amount of uncertainty attached. As such, I think it's worth a longer look before casting him onto the scrap heap.
I can deal with that. Just had to speak up a bit. Bad timing on the mood. To me this is just another instance that points out just how hard Arena's job really is. Coaches of top sides can compare player league performance and have a pretty good idea that it is going to translate to the international game, considering games in Champions League and such are very close if not above the level of international games. Having half your team playing in MLS and the other spread around the world in leagues of differing levels of play makes it a bit more difficult. I still think MLS performance should count for more when comparing to other MLS players, just out of fairness and to keep the players competitive. Individual player evaluations will always differ. I think Bruce is a good coach, but I also truly believe that there are other equally good coaches that would select a very different national team.
But McBride is 31 years old. Whatever McBride's talents, the clock is ticking here. There were not a whole bunch of teams at the last World Cup giving playing time to 34 year old forwards. Germany moved aside Bierhoff for Mirosalv Klose. Argentina moved aside Batistuta. McBride's removal from the Nats is _going_ to happen in the not too distant future. So it's time to consider alternatives. In the immediate, Twellman is one, Buddle is another, Conor Casey possibly. After that we can talk about the Eddie Johnsons and Nate Jaquas (this kid is HUGE) of the world. I have also seen Twellman check back. He just isn't any good at it yet. He generally gets overaggressive and makes poorly timed challenges and sends people flying and upsets them. He hustles like hell, but his defesnive skills are pretty lacking. But of the other younger guys, I haven't really seen McBride's level of ability in that regard either. It may turn out to be something that takes a fair amount of time to learn and master. I'm not saying Twellman > Buddle, or even Twellman > McBride. I am saying that a guy scoring at the rate Twellman's scored for the Revolution has earned a solid shot with the Nats. Buddle's recent run has earned him a bit of a chance as well. As I mentioned before, the problem is that unless there's a friendly coming up, whoever starts at forward for us in the first round is likely gonna _really_ like what he sees out there. (As a reference point, do a Google search on Archie Thompson) So in terms of producing with the Nats, it's unlikely that _anyone's_ going to get any usable chance until midway through next year. If Twellman (or Buddle) gets a start against Turks & Caicos, he's got a 50/50 shot for a hattrick, and about a 10% chance of netting 5+. So what. He's already proved himself at a level higher than Turks & Caicos.
I think the one thing Wynalda said that we are giving too much credit too is that its NOW or never. Twellman does have more time. He is still growing and getting stronger as a player. I think that Donovan has been hindered at times by being relied upon so much by the Nats. His personal/physical development has at times taken second place to our need for a player of his caliber. Thus he has not been physically or mentally "all there" for his club. This is okay for Donovan, because he has never lacked confidence and has been told all along that he is going to be a star of the USMNT. But TT probably needed to be able to focus on his club soccer for at least the first two years he was here so that he could get used to the physical wear and tear and get the right mix of cockiness (I AM GOOD) and anger (I SHOULD BE ON THE USMNT). He will get more chances, no doubt about it. And he will be hungrier and more productive than ever when he gets those chances. That might not be the most ideal path - but Taylor has had a somewhat disjointed career (between two years of college, time in Germany and time in MLS) so it is understandable that he has had to "wait his turn" to be considered as a regular for USMNT. Jovan Kirovski is probably the only forward who we could accuse Arena of wasting valuable playing time on over the current cycle. I might say Cunningham as well, but that is more a personal opinion than a rational one, because Jeff probably earned the looks that he got. And even the indulgence in JK is more or less understandable considering the caliber of games, the injury situation and the availability of TT and other fringe players during that time.
Well, i guess all of this discussion is what makes sport great. It seems as though half of us believe that you hang with the "proven" guys until they drop dead on the field, while the other half of us believe that you have to weave the "unproven" guys into the lineup so that there is no hiccup in results as the older guys begin to lose something. The bottom line is that it all depends on coaching at this stage, because at the end of the day, the U.S. has more viable options in 2003 then we had just a year ago at the WC or 2 years ago in qualifying. There are tons of guys banging on the door, and if Bruce is as good as many of us think he is, he will be able to integrate the fine young talent with the older workhorses. I really don't think Wynalda was saying any more than this. Hopefully, Bruce has learned from the fiasco of trying to throw Agoos a bone in the WC (who cost the U.S. 4 goals in the 3 opening round games), that you can't just go with experience when there are clearly others who are younger AND better to fit the bill.