Just looking for your thoughts on how I handled a recent situation. I'm center on a U14G game between reds and blues, blues are up by 4 late into the second half. Reds drive deep and put a shot on goal which the blue keeper deflects but can't gather in, falling forward at the top of the six. With the keeper displaced red scrambles to get a shot off, passes to a red attacker standing litterally at the far post, she taps it in. No flag from the AR who is on the far side from the attacker that seemingly scored the goal. However, I was positioned just inside the top of the 18 and looking at the situation believe she is offside as there is only one defender with depth enough to even be close to even with her and of course no one deeper (since she is at the post and the goal is empty). I whistle and indicate the IDFK for the blues coming out. However I delay the restart to confer with the AR. He tells me he felt she was even however I believe that he isn't taking into account the fact that he's now looking at the LAST defender rather than the 2nd Last (since the goal is empty and the keeper is at the top of the six). So I continue to disallow the goal and restart with the IDFK. No problems from the Red team bench (this was the far side and opposite half of the FOP from them as well) but the AR seemed pissed that I disagreed with his view. Your thoughts? Would you do this or assume your AR has the best vantage point? What if anything do you believe I should have handled differently?
do i have faith in ability of ar? was i in best position to make the call? am i 100% sure i have the call right? if i'm sure, i'll make the call. any doubt, ar has the call.
I definitely think you were correct. If you KNOW the keeper was out and there were no other defenders even, then you have to make the correct call. It is your responsibility as the center to get the call right. If the AR can't tell me where the second "even" defender was, then I go with the call I know is right. My two cents.
I worked a lot as an AR, especially at the U14G level, and found myself in exactly this position. You become so accustomed to tracking the sweeper/last field player, that you completely disregard the keeper. I remember catching myself to watch for this in a game. Fortunately for me, the scenario you describe never came up. I'm guessing this is the situation you found yourself in. Sounds like the right call to me. P.S. I have sometimes disagreed with my CR, either on calls made or not made, but I always recognized that it's his show, and I never did anything to undercut his authority. If curious, I would question him privately about what he saw later. As an AR, you don't have to agree with his decisions, but you must respect them.
The objective is to get it right. It sounds like a quick play, and at the top of the 18 you probably have a better view - particularly if you were aware of the girl on the post before the pass to her. You could have asked about two defenders when he replied she was even, but you also don't want to have a 5 minute discussion. As an AR, you sometimes get the question of who was offside or who kept the goal scorer onside. I've tried to note the numbers of the defenders and offside players so I can answer such questions better. It also seems to help my concentration on who is on/offside. T
I've never had anyone ask me that. I guess it isn't a bad idea to do that. I just zone in on the 2nd to last defender, listen/look in corner of eye for the pass, then wait to see which player goes for it. I never really pay attention to the numbers, just the player.
But the real question is: do you concentrate on the second to last defender, or the the furthest back "non keeper" assuming the keeper makes this person the second to last? 99% of the time, it doesn't matter, but if the keeper comes out, like in this example, it does matter, the keeper is no longer one of the two last defenders. Going to the original question, depends on how well I know my AR on whether I would take their word as is, go over and chat or flat out make the call. Positioned like you where, I would have little problem going over and making sure they really saw two defenders, and not assumed the keeper was one of them.
if only players all stood perfectly still while we decide who is in offside position and who is involved. even standing at the 18, my vision might not catch a defender standing even with the attacker in question and way towards the far sideline. some defender running towards his goalline while tracking a winger making a late run. the ar, looking directly across the field should have the best view. and, i seldom can tell you which number kept them on. i will reply far, middle or near side in response to that question, when asked.
Sounds like you handled it right. There might be a something that you can add to your pre-game - asking the ARs to track the players numbers when they are making a call (offside, foul, etc.) I frankly wasn't doing that as an AR until someone once told me that in a pre-game and I think it helps me a lot - so know I think to myself "#8 is offside, #2 is 2LD, etc..." So if someone accuses me of listening to voices in my head... Another thing to remind your ARs about in pre-game are the times when it is common for the GK to NOT be the last defender - corner kicks, free kicks close to the goal, etc. If something like that happens, as efficiently as possible, make sure you both know what each of you saw - and once you know that, if you're the CR, you make the call. I was the AR in a similar situation and the CR disallowed a goal for offside when I hadn't flagged it. He called offside himself, but wasn't really in a good position to do so as the both attacker that he thought was offside and the 2LD played toward the goal from behind him. But I couldn't tell him the player who was the 2LD, so he disallowed the goal. I think he missed it, but I was also not really on top of the play as I should have been. Sometimes your CR will screw up and sometimes you will, you need to be able to move on to the next play.
Keeping track of the numbers is good if you can. Sometimes dynamic play does not allow for that. However, I too have been asked who was offside or more often how was a player onside. It ends the dissent quickly when you can respond to the coach/player and say number XX kept him/her onside.
Here in NC our HS association has some middle school games officiated by a single referee (sometimes me). In that situation, I tell the teams that if they run any kind of offside trap to BEWARE because I will call offside only if I KNOW that the correct call is offside. I will call offside sometimes but on close ones I give a loud verbal "KEEP PLAYING" as positive enforcement that "yes I see that it might be offside but I'm not going to call it so you might as well play defense instead of standing there with your hand up in the air staring at me while that attacker goes in and scores." As referee, if you KNOW what the correct call is, you make it. If unsure (bad angle, players between ref and ball, sun just reflected off a car windshield and I think I really am blind), then the referee works with the AR to make what the AR should KNOW to be the correct call. If both are unsure (as happens sometimes)...what can we do but make the best call according to our experience, judgement and knowledge of the LOTG. As others stated above, the most important goal is to make the correct call. As referee you have the authority to wave down an offside flag if you feel that is the correct thing to do. Making an offside call (correctly) while the AR's flag is down is exactly the same thing, just opposite (know what I'm saying?). The referee is the final authority and the only one with a whistle. Call the call, restart the match as you did. If your AR was a bit peeved that's his(her?) problem, not yours.
Last year in a boy's High School District Playoff game I was the center with a fairly excperienced AR2. Play was right at midfield. Attackers were coming out as the play was going back in. I was up close to the play, AR was a bit late getting out. Ball was played through, with the defending team screaming for offside. I looked over the play, looked at the AR and got that deer in the headlights look, replayed the situation and to me it was 'clearly' offside so I made the offside call. I ran the 5 yards to the offside line, gave the AR a thumbs up, raised my hand for the indirect kick and encouraged the defender to imediately begin play. The quick restart shut down much of the anticipated dissent. I didn't like making the call and the issue of AR creditibility for the remainder of the calls, but I made what I thought was the right call. Fortunately there were not any references to the creditibility issue for the rest of the game.
I had a related situation a few weeks ago. A ball was played through. I was in good position. And I really thought the attacker was in an offside position (and had a sideline screaming for a call). And, I'll add that I had a relatively inexperienced AR and got no flag. I headed over for a quick conference and got a definitive response that the attacker was even when the ball was played. I allowed the goal. I definitely wasn't 100% certain, but had I been calling this game on my own, I would definitey have made the call. And had the AR suggested any wavering or indecision during our brief conference, I would have made the call. But, with the AR in correct position and being confident about, I decided it made the most sense to defer to the AR's judgment. Another ref watching the scenario suggested after the game that I had fueled the defending team's anger by going over for the conference, i.e., that I gave credence to their belief that the call had been missed by doing anything other than immediately signal for a goal. But, in my mind, I needed that extra moment to confirm that the AR was confident of the call as I otherwise intended to bring it back. How certain are you? How certain is your AR? Was the AR in correct position? How experienced/good is your AR? In the scenario posed here, I think it is difficult because you don't want to get bogged down in an extended discussion. However, I do think with the AR saying that the player was even, it might have been worth an additional question to clarify that you clearly had the goalie standing on the 6 and was there another defender back. You "believed" the AR was wrongly including the goalie who was off the line but maybe the AR had someone else on the line that you didn't see. Conversely, if the AR lost track of the goalie being out (which happens even to the best occasionally), asking the question might get an "oh yea" response and have the additional benefit of avoiding the AR being irked. In the end, it's your game, and if you're absolutely certain, it is more important (as others have noted) to get it right. Re the pre-game, I'll often include something to the effect of it doesn't happen often, but if I overrule you, please support me. It's supposed to happen, but we're kidding ourselves if we think that there isn't a human element to this. It's hard to AR if you think the CR is making bad calls. It's hard to AR if you're being ignored when "know" you've seen things correctly. And it's foolish to think that this may not effect the rest of the game and a reason to have a high standard of certainty for overruling. In this case, since you've already gone over for a conference, I only wonder if you might have gotten some benefit from a brief comment to your AR that you appreciate his input but had a really good angle on it, saw it differently, and feel you have to go with your call on this one.
My thoughts exactly! Since you are already over there talking with the AR, you should have explained why you thought it was offside (GK was standing on the 6, in front of the last field player defender). blech, I've always liked your thinking...
I think you did the right thing. Haven't we always concluded it's better to get the call right? If your AR knows you'll support him/her, it makes for a better team.
Good pre-games can take care of a lot of issues before they become issues. I work with a State Referee whose pre-game includes the following instruction regarding CR/AR conferences during the match. He asks that...even if the AR says the CR is wrong and full of #*^%@#, nod our heads up and down like we're agreeing to sell whatever call eventually gets made. Good stuff! What's very difficult for me is when...as AR...I tap my shirt pocket asking for a caution...the CR comes over to discuss it and I clearly state my case...and he keeps his plastic in his pocket....and I then watch the sportsmanship deteriorate, physical play increase and there is little that I can do. This happens mostly in HS and rarely (I can't remember the last time) during USSF matches. This is about the only argument I can think of that gives support to the "three-whistle" system formerly used by the NC HS association. Yes...I wrote "three-whistle" system. This was not a typo nor did I just imbibe some crazy juice.
You've done all you can. If the ref wants to hang himself and the rest of his crew, that's up to him. I'm going to pretend you didn't just say that.
I have gotten that question several times, but mostly in High School games (2 man) where there are alot of other things to be concerned about other than identity of the next to last defender.
You're right. My apologies for bringing back to life something that had already died a too slow death.
I hear that question all the time as an AR, regardless of what type of game. Perhaps more common in adult matches than youth, but it is very common across the board. While you as an AR may not be concerned with the identitiy of the offside player, perhaps you should be. Identifying and remembering which players committed certain acts (whether fouls, nice dribbling, great passes, offside, dissent, etc) during a game is a good practice as an official. It helps you to improve concentration and awareness. Knowing everything that is going on in a match becomes more and more important the higher the level of the game. Plus, it is always nice to know for sure which player was offside since it sometimes can buy you some credibility. Often, I will offer it up when the teammate or coach wants to know who was offside.
I guess I always to take notice of who does what, but not necessarily their number. I usually don't try to see their number unless their back is to me. I wouldn't be concentrating enough on what I should be if I'm looking for their number.
Yes, good point. You can't start watching one player run all over the field just in hopes of seeing the number on his jersey. What you do if you can't see the number when he does the action is, you identify the player SOME OTHER WAY. Maybe you remember it is the guy with the pony tail, or the tall striker, or the stocky right midfielder, or... you get the idea. You file this away and you remember who did it -- whatever 'it' might be. Ideally, at some point you also can match up the jersey number with the physical identity, so you DO know the number of the player who did 'it.'
I think I already said this on this thread, but I'll try taking note of what players did what, it will probably help me somehow in the long run.
Great point...I'll keep this technique in mind for when I need it. For some reason my general responses of "the guy in the middle" or "the defender on the far side" never really makes them happy (would anything?). Chiller then said: "I think I already said this on this thread, but I'll try taking note of what players did what, it will probably help me somehow in the long run." And I gotta LOL HAHAHAH. You are so right. We should all be watching what the players do...
Yes, sometimes NOTHING will make the players happy. But if you can give a confident response of which number was offside (or which defender kept the attackers onside), there isn't much more the questioning players can say to, or ask of, you. As an AR, you can take the approach of Elliott Ness - actually Kevin Costner playing Ness in The Untouchables - "I have taken this as far as it can go." Great movie. Not sure how many of us have been challenged by an assessor to keep a record of the match using no written material, i.e. remember everything in your head. Some assessors seem to feel this is a good exercise in concentration and awareness etc. I tend to agree.