Worried about not enough clubs above PDL for US Open Cup Qualifying

Discussion in 'US Open Cup' started by GIO17, Nov 8, 2004.

  1. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    I believe I have stressed this before in either this thread or in the USL section, but still what's a problem for the USL and the Divisions of 2nd & 3rd in US Soccer is also a problem for the US Open Cup if Clubs in the A-League & Pro Soccer League either shut down operations or move as far down as fourth division in the PDL.

    As it looks for the A-League in 2005 Syracuse Salty Dogs are done, but on the A-League website there are rumors that they will return in 2006. Ajax Orlando will have an A-League club once there is an official word from the city of Orlando to help build that stadium(we Metro Supporters know what you are going thru as there has been too much red tape delaying our stadium groundbreaking date). Also there is new rumors or fact that Milwaukee Wave United is either moving down to Division III or shutting down. News of this is in the other thread called "8 American teams remaining in A-League"

    Once again this is the US Open Cup none of the Canadian clubs in the A-League and PDL as well as the Puerto Rican A-League club donesn't count for Qualifying.

    2nd Division A-League clubs = 8 or 9
    3rd Division PSL Clubs = 12
    4th Division PDL Clubs = 51

    There is something terrible wrong here slowly but surely the A-League is reducing their numbers. Several of these former A-League sides have either removed themselves to either Divison 3 or 4 or completly shut down. This is disturbing to me because if there is a problem the USL along with MLS & US Soccer has to come up with a solution to solve this. Also for those who dream of promotion/relagation and making the US Open Cup exactly into the FA Cup in England, here in the US, well it's not going to happen if the A-League and PSL clubs keep falling or folding.

    What can be done? I wish I had the answers. The USL offices are in Tampa, Florida.
  2. KCWiz

    KCWiz New Member

    May 8, 2003
    Manhattan, Kansas
    o MLS: 12/12 teams (100%)
    o A-League: 6/8 teams (75%)
    o PSL: 6/12 teams (50%)
    o PDL: 13/51 teams (~25%)
    o USASA: 3 teams
    o Round 1: 16 PDL/USASA teams square off to narrow the field down to 32 teams.
    o Round 2: 8 PDL/USASA play 8 PSL/ALG teams to narrow field to 24 teams.
    o Round 3: 8 PDL/USASA/PSL/ALG teams vs. 4 ALG/Dallas/Chicago/Chivas/RSL and narrows field down to 16 teams.
    o Round 4: 16 teams play each other.
    o Quarterfinal: 8 teams play each other.
    o Semifinal: 4 teams play each other.
    o Championship: Title Game
  3. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    Thanks Wiz. Happy to see we are all thinking about solving the problems.
  4. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    All the MLS teams plus all the A-League teams should enter at the round of 32, like they did in 2000 & 2001, rather than the staggered format they have now. So those 20 teams plus the PSL/PDL/USASA teams, possibly with a preliminary round. I think that would be the best system.

    So why doesn't Puerto Rico count? Because they have their own national team?
  5. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    It was an argument once that Chris Armas should have been disqualified from our National Team during World Cup Qualifying, because he participated with the Puerto Rican National Team. That was during the 2002 Qualifiers.

    So that's why Puerto Rico isn't a member of the US Soccer Federation. Plus officially they are a different and seperate country. we help them out financially, but that's as far as it goes. Also the trainning area for our armed forces.
  6. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    they're born US Citizens so they're not a separate country. they have their own FA (Football association) like Wales, Scotland, England, Northern Ireland. Technically I think they are a commonwealth. They don't pay taxes but don't have their own foreign policy. They have an independence movement (a few percent of the population). They have a governor. Their "national team" is sitting out world cup qualifying this cycle. You're basically right, but can't really go all the way saying "different and separate country"
  7. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
  8. SparkeyG

    SparkeyG Member

    Feb 25, 2002
    Mokena, IL
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    No way USASA would allow any less than 4 clubs, one per region
  9. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Especially since they had 8 last year. Other wise, I like it.
  10. chn71

    chn71 Member

    Jul 23, 2000
    Elyria, Oh
    I'll give a shot at this.

    MLS - 12 clubs (all in)
    USL First Division - 8 clubs (all in)
    USL Second Division - 4 clubs out of 9
    PDL - 16 clubs
    USASA - 8 clubs
    Total - 48

    The 12 clubs from the USL 1st and 2nd division even out with the MLS clubs, and the 24 amatuer clubs (PDL & USASA) even out with the 24 professional clubs. The PDL has too many quality sides to be limited to 8 clubs.

    Divide it into East and West, The 6 MLS and 2 USL D1 clubs get a bye to the second round, the other 16 start off in the first round. Same amount of rounds as the 2004 USOC.
  11. SeattleFan

    SeattleFan New Member

    Mar 4, 2000
    Redmond, WA USA
    That would be a nice format. It's a nice mix of the amateur and pro. clubs. Plus, all of the top two division would be in.
  12. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    Got the information from the USL Boards. Everyone is going into a single table in the USL with the exception of the PDL. Maybe it looks like US Open Cup Qualifying might be fazed out of USL 1st division & 2nd Division.

    Here is the link.

  13. cleazer

    cleazer Member+

    May 6, 2003
    Toledo, OH
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Trying to keep things simple, how about this format:

    First Round: 8 USASA + 14 PDL (#5-18)
    Second Round: 11 winners + 9 USL-2 + Top 4 PDL
    Third Round: 12 winners + 12 MLS + 8 USL-1
    Fourth Round: 16 winners

    That gives us 55 teams and 54 games. All the "big" clubs would join in the third round, so US Soccer would have to worry about the 11 first round games and the 12 second round games for all the smaller clubs.

    If 54 games is a little too many, how about shrinking the first round:

    First Round: 8 USASA + 6 PDL (#9-14)
    Second Round: 7 winners + 9 USL-2 + Top 8 PDL
    Third Round: 12 winners + 12 MLS + 8 USL-1

    That shrinks the tournament to 51 teams and 50 total games. Perhaps a bit more manageable?
  14. jeffconn

    jeffconn Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    Norfolk, VA, USA
    Hampton Roads Piranhas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    cleazer posted:
    I like this format. No qualifying for the pro clubs, 18 PDL clubs make the tourney. The only sticking point i see, aren't the MLS clubs normally placed in the Round of 16 (i.e. the Fourth Round)? That would make another game for them to play. There might be some resistance to that.
  15. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I still think that the USSoccer would go to a 48-team format when MLS gets to 16 teams, meaning 32 non-MLS teams. I would not invite more than 32 lower division teams now, just to un-invite them later. So I see MLS (12), USL-1 (8), USL-2 (8), PDL (8), USASA (8).

    R1: PDL + USASA, 8 advance
    R2: (R1) + USL-1 + USL-2, 12 advance
    R3: (R2) + 4 from MLS, 8 advance
    R4: (R3) + 8 from MLS begin the round of 16 ...
  16. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

    Nov 16, 2003
    I like this format. All MLS teams would enter in the third round, the same level that the major English clubs enter the FA Cup. The organizers will probably repeat previous formats of regional matches between MLS & other teams instead of an open draw, with the games played at the lower division team. Another decision could be made not to pair USL teams, meaning that four would play MLS teams and eight PDL/USASA teams. If the fourth round is not pre-bracketed, the surviving non-MLS teams could be paired with surviving MLS clubs. The lower division teams could choose either a home match against MLS clubs or a share of the MLS gate, as in England. This sets up two rounds of possible giant-killing, before the expected majority of MLS survivors face each other, and would provide the lower level clubs with one or two home matches against higher opposition.
  17. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is not "simple" in that you will have to re-jumble the tournament next year when the number of teams in MSL/USL1/USL2 changes. You are depending on the 29 pro teams falling in the 12-8-9 pattern for several years. (Only MLS is fairly certain.) Even your second proposal depends on this.

    So that is why my format (previous post) requires minimal qualifying matches. (It does lead to the rather odd case of 9 USL2 teams playing for 8 spots.) But I like the 12-8-8-8-8 (m-u1-u2-p-usasa) pattern for the time being.

    When MLS goes to 14 teams, you would change to the "standard" 32-team bracket in the second round:
    R1: (USASA: 8) + (PDL: 8) + (USL2: 8) + (USL1: 4), 14 advance
    R2: (R1: 14) + (USL1: 4) + (MLS: 14) in the round of 32....

    And when MLS gets to 16, have a 48-team bracket, where obviously the 32 lower-division sides play one round, to have the winners face the MLS teams in the round of 32....

    Note that in these last two cases, only the MLS teams get added in; the 4 lower divisions stay at 8 teams apiece. Again, I base this on the fact that (at least in the modern era), the USOC has not had more than 32 lower division sides. In this table, note the middle number (the number of non-MLS teams) instead of the total teams. There is no sense to go over 32 now, just to cut them back when MLS hits 16 squads:

    Year, MLS, Lower, Total

    1996, 05, 12, 17
    1997, 08, 24, 32
    1998, 08, 24, 32
    1999, 08, 24, 32
    2000, 12, 28, 40
    2001, 12, 28, 40
    2002, 08, 24, 32
    2003, 10, 26, 36
    2004, 10, 30, 40

    Yes, there was a quirk in 1996. The Colorado Foxes (A-League) won a round, but somehow were replaced in the bracket by the Colorado Rapids (MLS), hence the strange numbers for that year.
  18. Ronaldo's Idol

    Jun 13, 2004
    I wonder if next year's MLS reserve teams will be in the Open Cup...arguably they will be better than most if not all PDL and USL squads.

    I think the MLS reserves will greatly alter the landscape of non-MLS pro soccer in the US as many A-leaguers and others will more than likely try to get on the reserve squads so they have ample time and exposure to impress MLS teams and maybe get signed. In the end, the reserve league will be great for US soccer as it will bridge the divide that currently exists between all those knocking on the MLS' door and those that decide who gets into MLS (i.e. GM's, coaches). But at the same time, I think it will probably serve as the beginning of the end for at least the A-league.
  19. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS will not have reserve teams. MLS will have large enough rosters for reserve games.
  20. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    So MLS teams can have 10 developmental players (24 or under), and 18 senior players. (I don't really understand the next set of rules: foreign internationals with/without green cards. Can a team go over the 7-foreigner limit if they hold green cards?) Given that, MLS teams can get 7 American youths (the green card situation aside), and 14 American seniors.

    What I wanted to get to: Two MLS teams could in theory put their reserves together to make a full "reserve team" that can play in the USL-1/2 divisions. There are a few difficulties in this (for example, which parent club's goalkeeper gets the most games?). Overall, though, I don't think the MLS is in business to make six more USL teams, but it could help the USL if this does happen.
  21. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    green card players are counted exactly the same as americans. they don't count as foreigners in any way

    MLS teams can have 28 american players. they don't have to use the foreign slots on foreign players

    in theory, but that's not the way MLS is thinking at all here. i don't forsee in the next year or two MLS in any way entering teams into USL leagues.
  22. JayJay4Pres

    JayJay4Pres New Member

    May 10, 2003
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kentucky and Virginia are Commonwealth's...PR(As well as the US Virgin Islands, Ameroca Samoa, Guam and a think a few other small islands) are US Teritories...we own them, but they still have no voice in our Policies. PR is pretty much the only one with a chance to ever become a state, and there has been much talk about that over the years.
  23. swedcrip34

    swedcrip34 New Member

    Mar 17, 2004
    In practice, Virginia, Pennsylvania, and Massachusetts may call themselves commonwealths, but they're basically the same as all 50 states.

    Puerto Rico is a commonwealth. They're not officially a terrritory.

    notice the lists here
    Northern Mariana Islands and Puerto Rico are commonwealths, the rest are territories.
  24. KCWiz

    KCWiz New Member

    May 8, 2003
    Manhattan, Kansas
    OK...I'll try this again...

    o Major League Soccer.........................12 Teams (100%)
    o USL Division I...................................7 Teams (85%)
    o USL Division II..................................5 Teams (56%)
    o Premier Development League...............16 Teams (30%)
    o USASA............................................8 Teams

    There can be TWO brackets with 24 teams each. Here is the setup of one of these brackets:

    o Round 1...4 USASA teams take on 8 PDL teams. The result is that there will be 6 teams.
    o Round 2...These 6 teams will be combined with 3 USLDII and 3 USLDI teams (or 2 USLDII and 4 USLDII teams). From this, there will be 6 teams remaining.
    o Round 3...These new 6 teams will be combined with 2 MLS teams. The results of the games played will be 4 teams left.
    o Round 4...The top 4 MLS sqauds meet the 4 remaining teams in knockout style until a bracket champion is determined.
    o Round 5...The two winners from each bracket play in the championship game.

    Wow. That took awhile.
  25. Pudgy

    Pudgy New Member

    Oct 20, 1999
    The 1996 aberration

    I was at that match. I can tell you what happened.
    The Colroado FOXES had won their previous round's match, and were drawn into the next round away to the Kansas City WIZ [M.L.S.]. The game was scheduled for Sunday, 15 (or it might have been the 13th) September 1996.
    Anyhow, this window was also open for International team play (World Cup 1998 qualifying, et alia), and Jamaica had a match scheduled for this window.
    So many of the FOXES players were called into the Jamaican camp; they did not feel they could field a complete team.
    So they withdrew from the tournament.
    At the very last moment, U.S.S.F. substituted the Colorado RAPIDS [M.L.S.] as a replacement team.
    The RAPIDS defeated the WIZ that night by 2-3. Chris Snitko had a horrendous first half in goal for the WIZ, and was substituted out. The WIZ, with Sean Bowers scoring a goal for both teams in the first half, levelled at two before Chris Henderson was sprung on a breakaway and beat ... (argh - was it Jeff Duback? - and Frank Klopas did not get into the game) for the winning score.
    This is what accounts for the aberration.

Share This Page