other than brazil 70 and 58 on top I don't agree with much. Uruguay 50 is no where near three imo. I think France 98 is way underrated as well, that was a well balanced powerful team.
the injury of jonquet helped brasil and for sure pele to be dominant against france in the second half.brasil olso in this tournament had a better defensive quality than france....a other point is that france had no other choice to play offensive (kopa in a interview has mentioned it).. down 2:1 (wonderstrike of didi)and down 3:1 (lucky build up action and a goalkeeper error)..what has played brasil in the cards too..and last not least the french defensive has connceeded a lot of goals too in this tournament in other games...3 against paraquay,3 against yugoslavia and 3 against germany (where has played not with his strongest sqad.)..
Yes, I agree with all of this. France's forward line was the most exceptional part of their team. IIRC from my thread 'France Football Player of the Century - Who voted for who?' Gerd Muller voted Fontaine 5th in his vote for best player of the century (my guess before knowing was that maybe it would be Kopa who had done that). I think Muller was a big admirer of Fontaine. I suppose they differed in style and attributes a bit, but maybe Fontaine influenced Muller in his goalscoring a little?
The defensive area was definitely a problem but coach Albert Batteux somewhat succeeded to fix that after the first two games vs Paraguay and Yugoslavia by moving Penverne to the CB position alongside Jonquet. The result was that Scotland only scored 1 goal and Ireland didn't score any. The defense also looked to work relatively well vs Brazil until Jonquet's injury.
I agree with Tom and otehrs that France 98 (despite of lacking bites in attack) they should be in higher position (near 10-12 at least)
Here is my attempt to rank the winners. 1. 1970 Brazil Overall: 6-0-0 +12 Quality Opponents: 4-0-0 +8 (England, Peru, Uruguay, Italy) Dominant throughout, including a group stage win over the defending champs, and probably the best team they faced in the tournament. Crushed Italy in the final. Not a shoe in #1 for me, more on that in a second. 2. Brazil 1958 Overall: 5-1-0 +12 Quality Opponents: 3-0-0 +8 (Soviet Union, France, Sweden) Lone blemish was a group stage draw versus an uninspired England team. They dominated versus their strongest opponents, beating the reigning European Champions (Soviets) 2-0, and recording two 5-2 victories over highflying France and inspired hosts Sweden. I gave some serious thought to putting them at number one as I rate the best teams they beat over the best teams that 1970 Brazil team beat (in the knockouts). 3. Germany 1974 Overall: 6-0-1 +9 Quality Opponents: 4-0-1 +5 (East Germany, Yugoslavia, Sweden, Poland, Netherlands) Played five strong teams, losing in the first group stage to East Germany. Were comfortable in the second group stage versus Sweden and Yugoslavia. Beat and excellent Poland team in a tight game and then beat a truly great Dutch team in the final. There was no clear number three for me. There was a clear top two and then a group all very close at 3-5. 4. 1962 Brazil Overall: 5-1-0 +9 Quality Opponents: 3-1-0 +7 (England, Chile, Czechoslovakia x2) Drew with the Czechs in the group stage before defeating them convincingly in the final. Convincing victories in the quarters and semis versus strong teams in Chile and England. Not having a chance to beat a truly great team hurt them. 5. Germany 1954 Overall: 5-0-1 +11 Quality Opponents: 3-0-1 +3 (Yugoslavia, Austria, Hungary x2) Their lone blemish was a group stage massacre versus Hungary where they rested some of their top players. Impressive in the quarterfinals and semifinals beating two good team (Yugoslavia and Austria) by a combined 8-1. Pulled a huge upset in the final with a few controversial decisions to boot. 6. 2010 Spain Overall: 6-0-1 +6 Quality Opponents: 3-0-0 +3 (Portugal, Germany, Netherlands) Lost a shocking group stage game to Switzerland and then recovered to win a four straight 1-0 knockout games to win the title. Although the games were close none of the games were ever in doubt except the final. This is the beginning of another group of four or so teams that are very close. 7. 1998 France Overall: 6-1-0 +13 Quality Opponents: 3-1-0 +5 (Denmark, Italy, Croatia, Brazil) Strong in the group stage beating a good Denmark team. Needed penalties to beat Italy and won a close game versus Croatia before and excellent performance in the final. 8. 2002 Brazil Overall: 7-0-0 +14 Quality Opponents: 2-0-0 +3 (England, Germany) You can only beat who they put in front of you, there were not many quality opponents in this world cup, but Brazil probably beat the next two best teams in England and Germany. England was a close but deserved victory and versus Germany was a strong performance. 9. 1986 Argentina Overall: 6-1-0 +9 Quality Opponents: 3-1-0 +4 (Italy, England, Belgium, Germany) Drew versus the defending champs in the group stage. Won a close controversial game versus England. Was convincing versus Belgium and won another tight game versus Germany. 10. 1966 England Overall: 5-1-0 +8 Quality Opponents: 3-1-0 +4 (Uruguay, Argentina, Portugal, Germany) Beat three very good teams in the knockouts and the final, but all were very close games with little bits on controversy sprinkled throughout. 11. 2014 Germany Overall: 6-1-0 +14 Quality Opponents: 3-0-0 +8 (France, Brazil, Argentina) Drew one group stage game before finishing the knockout rounds with 11 goals scored and 2 against. Crushed a deflated Brazil team missing its top players. Won close but deserved games versus France and Argentina. 12. 1990 Germany Overall: 5-2-0 +10 Quality Opponents: 3-2-0 +6 (Yugoslavia, Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, England, Argentina) Biggest win was probably in the round of sixteen versus the defending European champions. Best performance was a convincing win versus Yugoslavia in the group stage. Scrapped by England on penalties and won a tight 1-0 final. 13. Italy 1938 Overall 4-0-0 +6 Quality Opponents: 2-0-0 +3 (Brazil, Hungary) Were convincing versus France, the hosts, who were decent. Beat Brazil without their star player and performed well in the final versus a good Hungary team. 14. 1994 Brazil Overall: 5-2-0 +8 Quality Opponents: 2-2-0 +2 (Sweden x2, Netherlands, Italy) Drew Sweden in the group stage and won the final versus Italy on penalties. Scrapped by two one goal knockout wins versus Sweden and Netherlands. 15. 2006 Italy Overall: 5-2-0 +10 Quality Opponents: 2-1-0 +4 (Czechoslovakia, Germany, France) Good victory over the Czechs in the group after a disappointing draw versus the United States. Extra time win versus Germany in the semis and needed penalties in the final. 16. Uruguay 1950 Overall: 3-1-0 +10 Quality Opponents: 2-1-0 +2 (Spain, Sweden, Brazil) Basically played a warm-up game versus a hopeless Bolivia instead of a first group stage while a team like Spain had to play three competitive teams in their first group stage. In the second group drew Spain and slipped past Sweden (two teams Brazil crushed), and then in the final beat a great Brazil team in the final fair and square on their home turf. 17. Italy 1934 Overall: 4-1-0 +8 Quality Opponents: 3-1-0 +3 (Spain x2, Austria, Czechoslovakia) Beat all their quality opponents by the skin of their teeth, all their goal differential was racked up versus the United States. A lot of controversy with bad pitches and handpicked referees as the host nation. 18. Uruguay 1930 Overall: 4-0-0 +12 Quality Opponents: 1-0-0 +2 (Argentina) Only one other strong team in the competition, beat then in a competitive game. Did what they were supposed to versus everyone else making some average teams look bad versus Yugoslavia and Romania.
very good Tom ... even I did not have time (yet) to go over the "quality opponent" - which should take a seriuos effort to do so ... across the era and within era ... But great work ...
Do you feel that even a mediocre defender looks good statistically when surrounded by very good teammates on defense. Am thinking of a Junior Baiano for WC98 (playing next to Cafu, Aldair and R Carlos) for example. How about the four Argentine defenders of WC86 (Cuciuffo, Brown, Ruggeri, Orlaticoechea), none of them was exactly legendary but together they played in sync on defense.
There's no way Germany in 1954 is fifth... That is either very biased or poisoned by continous streams of propaganda (more likely) As did many hosts in reality
Don't know how Italy 82 slipped through their. They should be right in the middle between France 98 and England 66. They had a very poor group stage, then beat two very good very talented teams in the second group. Then in the semis and the final had two convincing wins versus team probably a level below the teams they beat in the second group. As far as Spain 10 and Germany 54 being overrated is I had a really hard time differentiating 5-12. If they move lower what teams would you bump up? My thoughts on Germany 54 are this: They got pounded by Hungary in the group but did not play their best team. In the knockouts they dominated some very good teams, their win versus Austria being especially impressive. Outside of the great Brazil teams you don't see any other team on this list really crushing another top team in the knockouts. All the team below them are slipping through the knockouts on controversial one goals wins and penalties etc. Then in the final they beat an all time great team, dubious circumstances or not. I do no think they were the best team at the 54 world cup, clearly Hungary was, but that does not make them a bad champion. They dominating every team they played not named Hungary and they managed to squeak out a surprising win in the final against them. Of the teams below them who you think should be moved ahead of them, who beat a team as good as Hungary under any circumstances? Who sported a 8-1 goal differential in the quarters and semis against very strong teams?
I understand it's always difficult and debatable of rating/ranking players and teams ... Both Italy 82 and Germany 54 were good teams but they also got their own struggle in group stage ... plus some luck in big game (like demons Rossi and "puskas' disallowed goal" ) but if we IGNORE that, then your list is ok
1) Brazil 1970 2)Uruguay 1930 3) Brazil 1958 4) Brazil 2002 5) Germany 2014 6) Spain 2010 7) Brazil 1962 8) West Germany 1974 9) France 1998 10) England 1966
The thing is every team below the top 4 has some major warts. Spain 10 won every game 1-0, France 98 barely scrapped through the knockouts needing penalties once, Brazil 02 only played two teams that could even be considered strong much less great, England 66 needed kind referring and very close knockout games etc etc.
Neither of the Uruguay teams proved enough to be seriously considered in the top 10. They both only beat one good team in the final in close games. Other than that they proved nothing. Uruguay may have been the best team in the world in 1930, it as at least plausible but England, Scotland, Italy, and Austria all would have been very tough opponents. In 1950 does anyone think they were close to the best team in the world? Brazil would probably have beaten them 7 or 8 out of 10 times. Argentina was the true super power of South America and had been beating down both Uruguay and Brazil for years at this point. Hungary could have sent a front line of Puskas, Kubala, and Deak. Imagine if Sweden had sent a full team with the Milan trio.
Agree that's why most people rated Brazil70 as a best team all time since they won good and had no "controversial" moment ... and then Brazil 58 -
It is your call but why do you play down Italy his 1934 win that much? Similar things can be said about many hosts/winners. And that includes shady changes of referees (suspensions too) and fielding illegal players. I agree though that with ignoring the circumstances, Italy in 1934 still belongs at the bottom half.
In my honesty, I do not rate WC in 30 34 and 38 that much ... so premature in quality and preparation in global.
What other winners do you feel have comparable amounts of suspicious/dubious activity that aided their victory? From what I have read Italy 34 seemed the worst combined with the fact that all that got them were 1 goal victories and replays.
I left Argentina 78 off my list as well, not sure how I lost a few of these teams. They are on a similar level to Italy 2006 and Brazil 1994 for me. Maybe right below them.
I feel like the worst WC champions were Italy 1934, Argentina 1978 and Italy 1982. I feel that the Italy 1934 and Argentina 1978 teams only won because they were hosts and in both cases there were suspicious circumstances leading to their wins whether it be biased officiating or Argentina beating Peru 6-0. Italy 1982 is the only team to draw their first three group matches and like Argentina 1978 I feel that with a different format Italy would not have been able to win the cup that year. Argentina 1986 if you take away Diego Maradona is also one of the worst WC champion teams ever.