What about Fiorentina? They had financial problems, basically lost their team, and had to start a whole new team (which pretty much took the identity of the previous team). I'm not necessarily saying promotion/relegation won't work, but given the financial realities of the American sports landscape I don't think it will work in the US right now. Imagine if Houston or RSL got relegated, do you really think the fans would stick around and follow the teams in the lower divisions. Given the MLS salary and ownership structure, what would happen to these teams once they were in the A-League, or Division 2, or the Championship, or whatever it would be called? Would their best players even want to play in this lower division? I'm just not sure that this kind of system could work in the US any time in the near future.
You can not compare the two different countries. Its like comparing baseball in Italy to soccer here. It will never happen! While I was in Italy most baseball clubs were lucky to even average a few 100 fans a match. This resulted in most club owners actually folding their baseball clubs. The same thing here with soccer! Fiorentina is a whole different story. You see Mario Checchi Gori a fim and Tv magnate lost a lot of money thru his business and actually got in trouble with the law. He kept selling his top players in the 90's i.e. Roberto Baggio to Juventus, Batistuta to Roma,Toldo to Inter and Rui Costa to Milan and he ended up losing his shirt and club! He just didn't have the pocket book to pay off all the clubs debts. Then in 2002 the club was actually folded by the FIGC and they started a new club in the SERIE C2 or in the 4th division when Diego Della Valle , who made his money in the shoe business took over the club. They were going to be relegated to the Serie B in 2002 but because of the financial debts they demoted them 2 divisons down. They then renamed the club Florentia Viola because the Fiorentina name still had outstanding debts and whomever assumed the club's name supposedly, by law had to pay everyone off. The only player who remained with the club was Angelo DiLivio. In 2002/2003 they won promotion to the Serie C1. Adriano Galliani the League President stepped in and gave them a gift and because he demoted them the year before actually promoted them right back up to the B division and they won the promotion playoff the very next year against Perugia. Therefore in the span of 2 years they went from 1st to 4th to 2nd and back to 1st or to the Serie A. Going down to the 4th ,fans actually got behind their team and to tell you the truth they made more money while in the 4th divsion. They averaged 33,000 fans a home game while in the C2. This will never ever in a 100 years happen here. First of all for a club to lose the money Fiorentina lost, most MLS/USL/PDL/NPSL/MISL club owners will either fold or contract the club! There would be no way they would want to start a new in a lower division. Also, can you imagine a PDL team averaging 33,000 fans a game when not even the top 1st division club can do half that amount?
Actually, isn't that the point of this entire thread - to compare countries, and to determine "why the popularity of the sport has not been moving so fast." I spent time in Florence in 2001, and saw them win the Coppa Italia with Rui Costa (who was sold shortly thereafter), and understand Fiorentina's situation, but I do appreciate the historical recap. My main point was that it is possible for big name teams to be relegated. I think it will happen less and less in the future as the financial gap between the top teams and other teams widens. I think we do agree on the fact that a relegation/promotion system will not be coming to the US anytime soon.
Actually, just this morning , Rome's mayor is hoping to impose a change in the Italian calcio and put in place an NFL/MLS playoff system in the race for the scudetto. Anyway, the fact that soccer is just getting a foothold on the public eye is also another reason that would hinder the relegation/promotion debate. I remember when the NASL folded no one hardly came out to support the Quakes 2 in the WSA/WSL. Mostly because it resembled a game worse than college soccer but mostly because it was an amateur circuit or semi pro at best. We went from watching and supporting the best soccer players in the world to watching a bunch of non skilled American born players who were NASL subs along with a bunch of Sunday league players . Times have changed and things are a lot better today. Getting back to why its taking too long for America to embrace soccer? I still say its the media, the multiple sports , and the lack of world class star quality players in the MLS.
And, based upon more than 40 years of experience, I believe the last of the three is the only reasonable possibility of change. The media is owned, NFL and the rest are paranoid of further perceived competition for your last dollar. But MLS is loathe to the third idea. IMO, that is insulting to an American soccer public which is FAR more knowledgeable and sophisticated about the sport than in any other previous generation... thanks largely to the Net, cable and satellite, and the passion for the world's game instilled thereby. Carefully stepping down off the soap box.
Soccer is considered to be the biggest threat to the sports-media complex. They would rather cover paint ball or rodeo-seriously. I think soccer also tends to unite people and the politicians do not want that. It is embarassing for politicians to see that we cannot compete on the world stage. We lack the skills, heart. And we are in many ways close minded; China is kicking our ass and we cant sell/market to them. How many US CEO's could name the champion in table tennis(China's national sport)?
I also think the lack of ethnic support is hindering soccer's growth. The MLS has done a lot of marketing on trying to establish the Hispanic fan base however, in many cases they have failed. If you talk soccer with most Hispanic or rather Mexican fans, they seem to have grown to respect the USMNT and their players. However, they don't really have much respect for the MLS. Part of it is they would never want to admit that the MFL is worse league than the MLS but also because there is a lack of Mexican players in the league. Beating those teams in exhibitions seem only have made the fans resent the MLS even more. Its almost like many Mexican fans will not attend a given MLS match just because there are no Mexican stars on the teams. I remember a sign in 1996 at Spartan Stadium saying "Mr. Bridgewater, do you want us to come back? Then sign a Mexican player"! The thing is instead of supporting the Anglos, Africans and American players, they seem to only care about the Jorge Campos' and Paco Palencia's. There has to be a way to get these passionate soccer fans into the gates and get their butts in the seats and have them root for MLS teams on a weekly basis. If there were more support from the ethnics I'm positive San Jose wouldn't have moved and I think the media would come around even more. There were a lot of Europeans in the crowds in San Jose in the 70's and we have to channel that energy back to help the MLS create a legacy and so it will endure for years to come.
People, people, people... sheesh! US Soccer Fans, Democrats, and Mothers-in-laws... what do they have in common? They point out negatives and bitch-bitch-bitch! (And don't start the political stuff because I'm a Democrat myself). Soccer specific stadiums are popping up like weeds, every MLS game is carried on TV at least locally (ESPN2 nationally for some), there League pass, MLS expansion plans, GOL, and other media options I can't think of off the top of my head that a decade ago we could only dream of. And all the US Soccer fans can do is bitch & moan "Ohhhh, why, oh why isn't Soccer bigger than NFL already!" Have some friggin patience... no other sport has grown faster than soccer (you could possibly argue X-Games, but that's it) in the past decade. Not even close. So stop complaining, grab a hold of the siderails, tune in to MLS, support the USMNT, and ENJOY THE RIDE!! The next couple decades will be the golden coming of age era of Soccer in the US!
And some of you need to take off the Tin Foil Hats and consult a professional! Alrighty there Oliver Stone... Paranoid much? LOL.
Yeah well patience is a virtue but for crying out loud we've been waiting 30 friggin years(actually 31 since Pele signed with the Cosmos)! The trouble with most Americans is we or they want to be the best at everything now! Its in the American mentality! We must be the best! Win WW1 & WW2! When we win at a SUPER BOWL or WORLD SERIES and/or the NBA we lable every sports team in the country WORLD CHAMPIONS! Even though Basketball and baseball are played throughout the world in America's eyes their teams are the best in the world! We all know they are the best in the world but the mentality is just that! They demand it and want to be the best if they are or not! We strive and want to be the real and only World Champion in soccer's World Cup! It will happen but you are right Americans are impatient!
That's why we're all so goddamn fat and lazy!! We want everything handed to us and we're not willing to work or wait to get it! You want a Big Mac? Don't worry about slaughtering the cattle (if that's really what's in a Big Mac), grinding the meat, growing the lettuce, neading the dough to make the bun... etc. Just plunk down $2.48 from out of your check you got from your desk job & buy engorge away! World Class Soccer? NOW!!! I don't care that Europe's been doing it for a hundred years and they've got more support and fan base and corporate backing. I'M AN AMERICAN AND I'M ENTITLED TO ANYTHING I WANT. NOW HAND OVER YOUR BEST PLAYERS!! Care to supersize that, you fat, razy, roundeye? (disclaimer... I'm not anti-social services, I'm not racist, and I'm not anti-american... I am having fun).
I don't think the NFL is a problem. The NFL doesn't really compete with MLS because of the difference in seasons. It might compete against European leagues, but then again, I don't really think the issue here is Americans watching foreign leagues, but rather why Americans don't tune support MLS or the USMNT. MLS does compete with MLB, but we all know baseball ratings nationwide are relatively weak other than the All-Star game and playoffs. And I really don't think that there is any media bias. The media follows the money. Boxing and horse racing were once dominated the front pages of American newspapers, and over time that has changed. I think ESPN, etc., actually do a fairly decent job of covering soccer given the viewership that it gets. At my house, I can watch a decent amount of MLS matches, most US friendlies/WCQs, MFL, EPL, Budesliga, etc. As a number of posters have said some of the problem stems from the lack of ethnic support, or Americans who are naturalized (or even those who are born here) who watch other leagues at the expense of the domestic game. I'll take some of the blame. This past weekend, what did I watch? I watched highlights of all sorts of stuff, but the only full match I watched wasn't MLS, but Chelski-ManUre. I can't help it. It's riveting stuff. That's not to say that I won't tune into the Galaxy or go to a few matches this year, but I probably won't go as much as I should. That being said, I do try my best to share the love of the game with others (although sometimes that fails when I take friends to US-Canada and they come away thinking that our team sucks).
That's cause it was the White Sox vs. the Astros... Not small markets, but definately not heavily followed teams. Your average fan couldn't name more than one or two guys on the White Sox before the World Series last year. And Houston aint much better. The only thing that would be worse for MLB would be the Brewers vs. Devil Rays. usually there's a big-money team in the W/S (ie. Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, Cardinals, Dodgers, Cubs...) I guarantee you if this year had the Yankees vs. Cubs in the World Series, asses would be put to couches and the ratings would go through the roof.
We also lack a Ronaldo a Ronaldihno a Baggio or a Zola. That could be another problem. Maybe if Landon tears it up and gets signed over in Europe to a big team and makes a difference in that club, things could possibly change. We need the stars not only on the club and domestic level but in the national team also in order to make an impact. Another dilemma could also be the lack of fan interest(not only in the US but around the world) when it comes to the national team. We saw the World Cup of baseball and it didn't generate much interest at all nor did the Dream Team in the Olympics, I mean not to the extent as it would have made in Europe. I remember reading Franz Beckenbauer in the 70's when he was quoted as saying" the only way soccer will succeed in this country is when the national team does well". That hasn't always been the case,however. If you see most club matches in Europe or even South America, the excitement, skill and quality of soccer is much better than any given WC qualifying or even final match. The club game is by far a more better game. A Champions League match for example is far ahead of any WC match. With possibly the exception of our USMNT, you rarely see more than 5 national team matches in one year. Its difficult for fans to get behind such a sport, mostly because the players don't play year in and year out on a consistent basis and its hard to identify with them.
Guys, there's one reason soccer's popularity has been moving slower. Look at the people who write about sports, and the people who put sports on TV. They're all old fogey types who still think baseball is cool and never played soccer. They dominate the discourse and how the game is portrayed. Heck, in the suburbs and on campuses, baseball isn't even the cool thing to play or watch in the spring. Lacrosse took over spring nights in the northeastern and mid atlantic suburbs a couple years ago. These sportswriters and talking heads see baseball in the romanticized light of Clemente, Mantle, Aaron, Mays when it doesn't exist like that anymore. They see it and it brings them back to their childhood - playing homerun derby in the sandlot 'til dark, hotdogs with their since-passed dad, transistor radios at a barbeque. Its not the current game they love, its the idea of baseball. Soccer doesn't provide them with that. And even worse, soccer is stealing athletes from their beloved game. Thats why soccer won't catch on here for a while longer. These guys, and maybe even the next generation, will have to retire. When todays little kids are running the sports pages and airwaves, then soccer will be included as a major sport. Until that day, we have The Beautiful Game to ourselves.
When all else fails it comes down to the lack of A. Media Coverage B. TV Coverage C. Corporate Sponsors D. Big Time Players E. Big Money Contracts F. An MLS TEAM in EVERY State! G. Sold out stadia H. All of the above
Dude, you live in Pittsburgh, which hasn't had a winning team since you were a kid, assuming you're trying to tell us that no one cares about baseball in college because you're a student. Of course no one cares about baseball in Pittsburgh. When you're a minority sport, a very good way to turn off fans of bigger, more established sports is make ludicrous boastful statements about how your sport will take over everything and that their sport is dying. If one half as many people in the US cared about MLS as New Englanders cared about the Red Sox, the sport would be in much better shape than it currently is. Soccer's growing among America's youth, but sorry dude, ten times as many people at my college cared about the Giants or A's as they did about MLS, and the Bay Area is not exactly known as a hard-core baseball haven like Chicago, New York, Boston or even LA.
the answer = get paris hilton to date coby jones. soccer in the states will have millions of fans and I will bring earplugs to games to hush out the little kids screaming. Soccer will grow. Last year at this time I hadnt EVER spoken about soccer to a friend. I would have been embarrassed because it's perceived as a second rate sport. Now they can't get me to shut up and I got a friend to buy a vannistilroy(sp) jersey. Give it time and talk the sport up. That's how it will grow. Everything in this country is controlled by the dollar including what ESPN broadcasts. If they could make more money broadcasting soccer than paintball or poker they would air it more often. Soccer is DEFINITELY growing. When was the last time there was a soccer billboard in NYC?
If the MLS keeps producing top talent like they are starting to do now, all US soccer fans will take notice, stadiums will be packed, because games will be more exciting and we'll have a strong niche in this society, soccer will never take over however, but it doesn't need to. A strong niche in America is a very strong niche indeed, with 250 million and rising thats a lot of potential customers. It will continue to get better, it's not gonna happen over night or over one decade even, try several decades then MLS is going to be one of the strongest in the world, and I said one of the strongest not the strongest, you USA haters.
Off subject here but does anyone know where one can buy a copy of USA's matches in the 2002 world cups, or any world cup for that matter, I'm talking about the full match tapes not just highlights.
I would say the biggest factor in slow tv growth is the little room networks have for commercials. In other parts of the world TV stations are run by governments and the lack of breaks in action are not a big deal. In the US networks have to make money and if re-runs of 24 or Bowling get the same numbers of viewers as MLS, are cheaper then producing an MLS game and offer more commercial time it's obvious which way a network will go. American Soccer has to beat this by building local support over many Decades. Then your sponsors will kill themselves to get there products placed in the stadium or on the screen during the action.
I'm sure everyone who writes in this forum really wants soccer in the US and for the MLS to succeed rather than fail. I've waited a long time to see soccer go over the hump as one of the strongest in the world. Last I read the MLS was ranked like #10th best leagues around the world. I think however, the MLS has got the right idea about bricks and mortar and investing more on building their own SSS than over spending on aging foreign talent. I think when they get all their Stadiums intact, then they may go after the younger foreign talent that all soccer fans would love to see. I don't mean stars in their 30's but more stars in their early or mid 20's. I could just relish the potential of this league and where it would go if say Miami who is in the USL could sign a Romario not at 40 but at 25. Maybe when that starts happening more ethnic fans along with the already established MLS or USL fans will come out and lend a European feel to the game. I remember supporting the Quakes in the 70's and being at Spartan in those days felt like we were all somewhere in the middle of Europe or South America. Maybe we can get back to that point in the next 10 years?
Part of me wishes soccer never gets popular. I look at soccer as my personal competitive advantage in the workplace. No breaks, constant attention, preparation, skills, and heart. I really believe that if you can play 90 minutes of competitive soccer, you will excel at anything in life.