why mls is better than other leagues

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by kronz21, Apr 28, 2007.

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  1. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    You need to read up on your sports history. The USFL, AFL, and ABA all folded or merged in to the NFL and NBA before either league implemented a salary cap. I still don't know of a league that has been able to maintain a salary cap and be the dominant sports league in the sport while there has been another league that had the financial resources to offer better salaries.
  2. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Evidence points the other way - in that the armchair fan, who most probably supports one of the big clubs, doesn't see any problem in his club always challenging. To him that makes the product good.

    Unlike the NFL, clubs here do have to consider the possibilty of the best players leaving. An NFL stripped of its stars would not been seen as a good product, no matter how much parity there is.

    American leagues grew the way they did because it the only way they could survive. It wasn't a great business idea that beat off strong competition.

    why is this surprising? England only has 3 cities with a population over 1 million. Even counting urban areas, Liverpool (Merseyside) is considerably smaller than Columbus, and has two premiership clubs.

    Like I said, try to imagine the NFL trying to operate in a country with the population of some in europe (as european countries have to do) with several other direct competitors very nearby, and there's no way at all it's be as successful.
  3. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA

    Actually, it's proof that cartels are more profitable and that anyone promoting them is mercantilist/anti-capitalist.
  4. krayzie

    krayzie BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Dec 13, 2003
    Paris, France
    Completely and totally agree.

    That's why I think MLS is more entertaining than EPL.

    In EPL, you already know that ManU, Arsenal, Liverpool or Chelsea will be the top 4 teams every year. Boring

    And if it wasn't for the huge import of foreign players the past 10 years, I wouldn't even care about watching english soccer...

    Europe and US have different way to manage sporting leagues.

    MLS should stuck to the american way. Because this is what american love the most. The draft, the playoffs, the west/east conferences, no relegation/promotion system...
  5. sportfriend

    sportfriend Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    no i really hate how things work here

    first of all...there are hardly ANY local cultures and traditions.
    We North Americans seem to always want the best big super-league!! like the NFL, NBA, NHL...but honestly i hate that shit...I want to have real regional, provincial, national leagues connected with promotion and relegation...

    we pick teams here like lets say...the Toronto Rapters that wear purple and red...but seriously what the ******** do raptors and those colours have to do with Toronto???? raptors are fierce so lets pick it!!!
    can't stand that...In Europe, South America, etc...Team symbols, and colours are picked because they represent a certain area in a city, a whole city or a region...Teams have political, cultural, or religious upbringings as well so when fans support their team...They're not just supporting 11 guys kicking a ball around their supporting their LOCAL CULTURES AND TRADITIONS.

    which leads to my next point...********ing glory hunters, sure there are lots in Europe...But it seems like over here with an exception for a few teams...when the team sucks (even though there are only 30 other teams in the league) the fan support is awful, nobody at the games...Yet in Europe teams in last place will still get sold out crowds or at least an incredible atmosphere...I find the smaller "loser" teams have the best atmospheres anyway...Look at in Italy, wanna see some videos of the support SERIE D teams get???

    so sure, anyone can win in the MLS...but i'm fine with cheering for a bunch of losers, because i'm cheering for a lot more than results when i support my team...I'm a proud loser/relegation figher and i don't need trophies to keep me happy

    who the ******** cares about that, the profits, ******** the modern game...long live the culture and TRADITION (or religion) that is REAL football.
  6. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    An easy way to judge is to look at valuations (all of Europe vs. the NFL).

    From Forbes:

    1 Manchester United England 1,453 84 6 310 92
    2 Real Madrid Spain 1,036 10 2 374 83
    3 Arsenal England 915 53 9 246 20
    4 Bayern Munich Germany 838 0 9 262 62
    5 AC Milan Italy 824 0 -10 305 46
    6 Juventus Italy 567 17 -18 321 45
    7 Internazionale Milan Italy 555 NA 10 264 26
    8 Chelsea England 537 28 6 283 -37
    9 Barcelona Spain 535 12 22 331 12
    10 Schalke 04 Germany 471 53 45 157 37
    11 Liverpool England 454 18 28 225 37
    12 Olympique Lyonnais France 343 NA 65 163 10
    13 Newcastle United England 260 46 -14 159 11
    14 Tottenham Hotspur England 243 0 27 137 9
    15 AS Roma Italy 224 0 -15 162 53
    16 Hamburg SV Germany 221 NA NA 130 31
    17 Manchester City England 208 83 -6 114 9
    18 Borussia Dortmund Germany 199 126 61 114 1
    19 Ajax Amsterdam Netherland 196 0 13 95 9
    20 Celtic Scotland 185 14 18 106 7
    21 Everton England 165 32 34 107 -15
    22 Olympique Marseille France 157 NA NA 105 6
    23 West Ham United England 156 27 NA 111 6
    24 Glasgow Rangers Scotland 147 7 32 113 12
    25 Aston Villa England 140 16 16 91 -21

    From Forbes again:
    1 Washington Redskins 1,423 13 17 303 108.4
    2 New England Patriots 1,176 13 26 250 43.6
    3 Dallas Cowboys 1,173 10 17 235 37.1
    4 Houston Texans 1,043 10 29 222 57.6
    5 Philadelphia Eagles 1,024 8 32 218 54.2
    6 Denver Broncos 975 7 21 207 26.9
    7 Cleveland Browns 970 9 10 206 47.1
    8 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 955 9 15 203 56.9
    9 Baltimore Ravens 946 9 29 201 27.8
    10 Chicago Bears 945 9 20 201 51.5
    11 Carolina Panthers 936 7 13 199 20.7
    12 Miami Dolphins 912 7 27 194 33.4
    13 Green Bay Packers 911 7 5 194 22.3
    14 Kansas City Chiefs 894 17 15 186 28.2
    15 New York Giants 890 10 7 182 26.9
    16 Seattle Seahawks 888 8 13 189 5.0
    17 Tennessee Titans 886 6 14 189 48.3
    18 Pittsburgh Steelers 880 7 11 187 25.5
    19 New York Jets 876 18 11 179 33.1
    20 St Louis Rams 841 11 5 179 33.2
    21 Detroit Lions 839 8 42 178 16.1
    22 Indianapolis Colts 837 17 18 167 25.0
    23 Cincinnati Bengals 825 15 12 175 20.9
    24 Arizona Cardinals 789 17 19 158 16.6
    25 Buffalo Bills 756 7 9 176 31.2
    26 Jacksonville Jaguars 744 8 17 173 22.5
    27 New Orleans Saints 738 3 17 160 -4.1
    28 Oakland Raiders 736 9 7 171 9.1
    29 San Francisco 49ers 734 5 14 171 11.8
    30 San Diego Chargers 731 8 14 170 24.8
    31 Atlanta Falcons 730 6 37 170 6.6
    32 Minnesota Vikings 720 9 44 167 16.3

    The NFL has done a terrific job of promoting their business, but that's expected when you run a cartel.
  7. krayzie

    krayzie BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Dec 13, 2003
    Paris, France
    Typical retard eurosnob statement.

    First of all, games that involve teams threatened to be relegated are awful and boring... Because they mostly lose ALL THEIR GAMES, they play badly and poorly. Nothing exciting.

    Stop your eurosnob propaganda.

    The pro/rel has never been entertaining.

    This is not entertaining to see teams losing merely all their games.
  8. sportfriend

    sportfriend Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    says the AC Milan "fan"
    maybe if you actually could support a team that MIGHT lose more than they win you'd understand how insane promotion and relegation can be.

    i don't think you've ever watched a relegation battle with those comments, that's a typical north american snob comment
  9. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    By way of comparison, the US professional sport that is closest to the European-style free market system has a valuation distribution that is closest as well:

    From Forbes again:
    1 New York Yankees 1,200 17 79 302 -25.2
    2 New York Mets 736 22 83 217 24.4
    3 Boston Red Sox 724 17 33 234 19.5
    4 Los Angeles Dodgers 632 31 67 211 27.5
    5 Chicago Cubs 592 32 0 197 22.2
    6 St Louis Cardinals 460 7 53 184 14.0
    7 San Francisco Giants 459 12 32 184 18.5
    8 Atlanta Braves 458 13 0 183 14.8
    9 Philadelphia Phillies 457 8 38 183 11.3
    10 Washington Nationals 447 2 56 144 19.5
    11 Houston Astros 442 6 12 184 18.4
    12 Seattle Mariners 436 2 23 182 21.5
    13 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim 431 17 8 187 11.5
    14 Baltimore Orioles 395 10 38 158 17.1
    15 Chicago White Sox 381 21 10 173 19.5
    16 San Diego Padres 367 4 48 160 5.2
    17 Texas Rangers 365 3 73 155 11.2
    18 Cleveland Indians 364 4 27 158 24.9
    19 Detroit Tigers 357 22 59 170 8.7
    20 Toronto Blue Jays 344 20 0 157 11.0
    21 Arizona Diamondbacks 339 11 68 154 6.4
    22 Colorado Rockies 317 6 28 151 23.9
    23 Cincinnati Reds 307 12 13 146 22.4
    24 Oakland Athletics 292 24 31 146 14.5
    25 Minnesota Twins 288 33 31 131 14.8
    26 Milwaukee Brewers 287 22 42 144 20.8
    27 Kansas City Royals 282 18 14 123 8.4
    28 Pittsburgh Pirates 274 10 37 137 25.3
    29 Tampa Bay Devil Rays 267 28 15 134 20.2
    30 Florida Marlins 244 8 36 122 43.3

    BTW, you can't say that this is because the NFL is more popular than MLB. Though far more people watch any particular NFL game than any particular MLB game, that isn't surprising, considering that there are 10 times more baseball games than football games (162 vs. 16), so each NFL game is 10 times more meaningful. I could just as easily trot out the line that far more people attend MLB games than NFL games.

    If you look at website comparisons, though (which is probably the only fair way to compare fan interest), MLB and the NFL are running neck to neck now:
  10. krayzie

    krayzie BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Dec 13, 2003
    Paris, France
    Again Euronob propaganda. This is not true. In Europe, teams in last place never sell out NEVER. This is a LIE. I live right here in Europe so I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

    And what you say is completely false. Amazing how eurosnobs can idealize Europe. In Europe even big teams struggle to sell out. And atmosphere is great only in for the big games.

    In US, you can see weak NFL teams like the Houston Texans or Detroit Lions playing in front of 60,000 or 70,000 people !!!!!!!

    You have the New York Knicks in NBA averaging 20, 000 people !!!!!

    And when you add the fact that tickets cost a LOT of money in US, that's even more suprising.

    Are you kidding me ???
  11. sportfriend

    sportfriend Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    hey glory hunter, what's going on.

    mate the season Freiburg won 3 games out of 34...We had nearly a full stadium every ********ing match...It seems to be the same with many other leagues as well...Sorry maybe i overexaggerated with full stadiums all the time
    but i'd rather have a 30 thousand stadium with 20thousand STANDING european snobs than 60 thousand Americans sitting down, waving big foam fingers.

    can't compare this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glCB3pJVrEU
    to anything we have over here.
    and what are you saying only big teams have good atmospheres??? yer a typical glory hunter.

    that video is from Ascoli, the team who's dead last in Serie A right now by the way...
  12. USFootiefan1980

    United States
    Aug 19, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to be a Negative Nancy but the same could also be said for MLS;

    1996 DC United
    1997 DC United
    1998Chicago Fire
    1999 DC United
    2000 Kansas City Wizards
    2001 San Jose Earthquakes
    2002 Los Angeles Galaxy
    2003 San Jose Earthquakes
    2004 DC United
    2005 Los Angeles Galaxy
    2006 Houston Dynamo

    DC United- 4
    Los Angeles Galaxy- 2
    San Jose Earthquakes- 2 (3)
    Chicago Fire- 1
    Kansas City Wizards-1
    Houston Dynamo-1 (3)

    In 11 years only six clubs have won the MLS cup. And being that Houston is practically the same San Jose line-up it could be argued it's only five. Six/five out of 15/16 teams over years. There's little difference between MLS and top euro leagues in terms of number of clubs that have won the title over the last few years, so that's hardly an arguement for parity, in my opinion. Mind you I'm a big fan of MLS, I'm not saying that europe does it better, I'm just saying there is a slight flaw in your argument for parity.
  13. MountainHawk

    MountainHawk New Member

    Sep 7, 2005
    Salem, MA
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You seem to be ignoring that 5/6 teams is just about 50% of MLS' team population over the time period, while 4/5 is about 20-25% of most Euro leagues population.
  14. frenil

    frenil Member

    Mar 11, 2004
    The NFL also has a local market of almost 300 million people.

    HSEUPASSION New Member

    Apr 16, 2005
    Duck, NC
    Obviously not a lot since there's no such thing as "NBA Europe", each country has an independent league with it's best teams playing in the "Euroleague", basketball's version of the Champions League, and many basketball teams in Europe have very, very good support.

    Internet polls aren't hard evidence, just look at any FOX FunHouse poll that BigSoccer gets wind of.
  16. Mike22

    Mike22 New Member

    Nov 8, 2005
    Tampa-->KC, Mo
    or salary cap goes up = teams lose more money = owners get fed up = league folds = no fans

    this is why they're waiting for more fan/tv/sponsor support before dramatically raising the cap
  17. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    how does a promotion battle square up to the excitement of the battle to get the first draft picks?

    I'm sure the when teams clinch that defeat that gives them first pick, the scenes are just like this
    (ok, you can't see a great deal, but that's not the point.)
  18. TerpSoccerFan

    TerpSoccerFan New Member

    Jan 14, 2007
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have to jump back in here real quick...

    Would like to point out that the domestic 300 million person market is basically all the NFL has, while the EPL makes a vast majority of its TV money in its overseas market which is over 1 billion people. All in all, the NFL has maybe a 500 million person market globally, and that's being generous.

    The EPL has well over a billion. It's on every weekend in Europe, China, Africa, South America, North America, etc.

    And while yes, salary cap was added later, so was free-agency. The ability for owners to outspend wasn't very useful (except for certain circumstances, for example the Yankees relationship with the Athletics in the 70s, relationship with the Red Sox in the late teens) in the NFL or MLB because there wasn't free agency in the MLB until what? The 70s? And not until 1993 for the NFL? So while there was no cap, there was also no ability for players to freely change teams.

    And for RichardL and his last post:

    I would argue...

    Isn't the fact that teams celebrate not being relegated the problem? Honestly, not being relegated is huge for those teams (for the fans and financially for the team, obviously)... But the fact that it is is a sad indictment of the system that's left. Anyone finding so much joy in finishing 16th or 17th... That's kind of screwed up to me.

    Our system has its own faults, as we have teams that get very close (if not actually doing it) to "tanking" their games to get lower and get a better draft pick. This is pretty much exclusively in the NBA, not the other leagues. This is pretty embarassing, and in some of the on-air debates some people (such as Bill Simmons, jokingly) have suggested an EPL system where bad teams are relegated as a way of fixing it. The general response is "Yeah, that would go over real well."

    None of the systems are perfect, but when you're happy enough to storm the field because you finished 16th, that's pretty pathetic to me. But that fully expresses the type of system they have over there. Only a handful of teams can even envision a title, only a few more can envision European competition. The other 12 or so teams have simply one goal - to finish 16th or better. And that arrangement has largely stayed the same in the EPL for almost 15 years now. To make a comparisson, the EPL has three Yankees, two Red Sox, one Cardinals, and about 12 Kansas City Royals.
  19. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    The bottom three in England are all averaging close to their capacity and have sold out many games this season. In fact, West Ham sell out most of their games.
  20. sportfriend

    sportfriend Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    this guy "supports" AC Milan (yet apparently is born in France) so clearly he doesn't know anything about the drama of fighting relegation of charging for promotion...

    The teams i support Freiburg...was in a relegation spot for much of the first half....During the second half of the season started we've only lost 1 match in about 14-15...Now we're tied with 2 other teams (1 point away from the 2nd place team) battling for promotion...It'll go down as the craziest season i think if we make it!

    then there is Reggina...-11 points, everyone waved goodbye to us going to serie B...but hasn't happened has it ;)

    glory to us loser teams

    edit: @ terp, yeah it sounds strange celebrating a 16th/15th place finish...But if my team is to get into 1st liga next year with the youngest team in Germany...All i want is to stay up, because once you get relegated you often have to start over almost....Plus all the other things you said...It's really exciting to see your boys play way over their heads just to stay alive.
  21. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I'd rather have that than follow a league where rigged parity is believed to be "competition" and where failure is rewarded by better draft choices.

    And the raw emotions on display in a relegation battle are some of the most enthralling in sport, imo. I will never forget the expressions etched on the faces of Bradford City fans during a game against Liverpool that ultimately saved them from relegation. To me, that is just as much what sport is about as who wins the championship. And those kind of emotions are all going to be on display over the next few weeks in the Premiership...
  22. sportfriend

    sportfriend Member

    Jun 24, 2006
    cheers, nice to have another north american who's brainwashed by the "eurosnob propaganda"
  23. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA

    It's quite useful when you're competing with another league for players.

    Again, I've yet to see a salary-capped league that has to compete for players with another league of equal financial standing be the best league in the world.
  24. TerpSoccerFan

    TerpSoccerFan New Member

    Jan 14, 2007
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "It's quite useful when you're competing with another league for players.

    Again, I've yet to see a salary-capped league that has to compete for players with another league of equal financial standing be the best league in the world."

    There has been very limited oppurtunity to see that because there are only two real global sports (soccer and basketball).

    I'm guessing that the NBA could be the great experiment. It has a draft and a soft-cap and it competes with other leagues globally. As it moves into foreign countires (Stern recently said 5 NBA teams in Europe within 15-20 years), Euro League gets bigger and better... Will it keep its cap and draft? I think it will.

    About the avoiding relegation thing...

    Sure there can be great emotion and drama in it, but at least here you can think to yourself "we have a decent chance of getting better in the next 3 years." Does anyone have that mindset in the EPL? Does anyone other than big four (even though Liverpool hasn't won it in about 20 years) really even plan on winning it next year? Does any other team even plan on coming within 20 points of the top next year? Or the year after that? Or after that? No.

    The Chargers were terrible a few years ago. They got LaDanian Tomlinson, Drew Brees, and then Phillip Rivers with their picks. They got better... Then they were a middling team, and with a middle pick- not a top pick- they got arguably the best defensive player in the league... Shawn Merriman. Then they had the best record in the league last year. Within a few year they will have to break up their team due to the cap (this is the part I don't like and where I favor the NBA, because the NBA allows you always re-sign your own players even if it puts you over the cap. The cap only exists in relation to players you bring in from another team.) and some other team will take their place.
  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I do agree that there is a big issue here in that Champions League cash has cemented the dominance of the "big four". However, the solution to this is not to adopt some of the rigged parity constructs of cartel-based leagues, but to distribute the CL TV cash more equitably amongst teams in a league. And, of course this really has nothing to do with the drama produced by pro/rel: those emotions always attended it.

    In other words, they were rewarded for their failure in most of those draft picks...

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