Maybe its just me, but when bench players are starting more often than the starters, the bench players become the starters and there is no bench to speak of. Bench players are those guys you throw in for the last 30 minutes of a game when the team is playing its third game in 8 days. Bench players are the guys that can fill in one of the starting 11 spots, not 3 or 4 at the same time. A bench player is a guy you don't expect to win a game for you, you just want him not to lose a game. McGinty - Unknown Namoff - hasn't cost the team a game yet Curtis - One of the leading scorers even though he's third or fourth on the depth chart. Is that weaknesses? I would count that as a good bench player. Q2 - Unknown, but he's been dangerous in both his games. Mapp - A question mark. But then again Olsen, Convey, and Nelsen were all questioned during their rookie seasons, but proved themselves during their sophmore years as backups. ANY MLS team that must rely on its bench for starters in more than 2 positions will not perform well - Chicago was 2-4-1 when they were missing Razov, Wolff, Nowalk, and Stoichkov. San Jose, KC, and Dallas have the best records and fewest key injuries. Coincidence? Anybody who expects the bench players to win games doesn't understand MLS. In the EPL every team can field two starting teams - particularly those involved in Europe play. MLS you field 1 1/2 teams.
You know this bothers quite a bit. Ray was signed a week before the draft but I guess he wasn't scouting any players for the Fusion to draft before contraction. If Ray was doing his job properly for the Fusion he should have scouted every player available and had some kind of assessment of them, even of they weren't going to be drafted by the Fusion. Hell they get all of the College players down to Florida so everyone can get a look at them. It couldn't have been too hard for him to check them all out. The plain truth is what DRN said, Hudson is a bad evaluator of talent, US or otherwise. I also put some blame on Kaspar, he had a few more weeks than Hudson and should have done his homework on the players available.
I think we overrate our starters a smidge as well. There is a good reason only one player made the MLS All-Stars, and as a "Commish" pick to boot.
A valid way to look at the team, but I'd add a few more "bench" players: -Villegas, who is Olsen's replacement afterall. Has not meshed with his teamates. has cost the team points. -Alegria. great spirit but two slow, too small. Has cost the team points. -Lassiter..... a bust. -Alevanja. has cost the team points. -Curtis. some good games but not reliable. Then you have McKinley playing out of position at left back. I know that has been his traditional position but he's too slow now. Now that he's been a d-mid he's being used better. None of these has done much and Alevanja and Alegria, here all year, have done just a tad more than diddly. Curtis has just been adequate as a fourth forward. As you say above, MLS teams field 1 1/2 teams, but I'd say that United really has only 1 team worth of MLS talent. The Fire are a better team even though they've probably had more injuries and call-ups. Why? Better coaching? Better assembling of the player pool? We need to have a team that can do as well as the Fire have done this year when injuries hit. The difference isn't huge. I think we can make the jump this winter. I'm positive that Hudson will do several moves. Hopefully they will be the right ones. We have a loaded hand in the Superdraft with the #1, 11, & 15 picks. These picks almost must produce two useful subs at the minimum either directly or via trade. The team failed in last year's draft even though I think Mapp will be good eventually. What will happen this winter?
We're not discussing this year. I didn't include Villegas, Alavanja, or Lassiter for very specific reasons - they haven't been good bench players because they've not added significantly to the team in that role. However, just to be fair, they have been starters for the most part all year. I do not believe they should be brought back next year. McKinley is a tough call for me. He has shown that he can be effective, but his limitations need to be covered by other players. I don't know if I could bring him back or not. If he is too slow for left-back, then there should only be one position left for him center-back. However, when paired with Williams as defensive mids it is hard to be critical of his coverage, and he does add some passing ability to the mix. The problem would be, if you bring him back you better hope he stays healthy, and Williams stays healthy. A tough leap of faith if their combined ages pushes them towards collecting Social Security.
Look John, I think we can all agree that this team fully fit and healthy could potentially be the best team in MLS, but as it stands, injuries happen in soccer and for some reason, United has been hit very hard by injuries the past 3 seasons.. Is it a coincidence that this team has scraped the bottom of MLS in that time period? I think not.... My point being is that the quality of bench players (even though they have been forced to play too much time due to injuries to key personel) on this team is way below other teams players and we, as fans, tend to overrate them and their respective abilities.. I'll give you my thoughts on the bench players.. McGinty - absolute unknown as Rimando will only come out due to injury Namoff - hasn't cost the team yet but also hasn't impressed the boss enough to get a chance to cost the team yet.. I like Namoff a lot and think he could step into Williams spot and outplay him.. He played quite well last season as a defensive midfielder and contributed very well to the offense with a number of assists.. Too bad Hudson can't see his way past his bias towards young players to give him the deserved chance to play.. Curtis - one of the leading scorers on a team averaging less than a goal a game - a backhanded compliment if I ever saw one.. Curtis, as described most eliquintly by Digital Tron in a previous post, is a bull in a China shop type player with no real passing ability or one on one ability.. He just gets the ball and runs straight towards goal and very often gives it up quite easily.. I do love Curtis's work ethic (much more than Lazy Lassiter) but there is a reason why he wasn't taken in the player expansion draft - he simply isn't that good and could hardly be considered a worthy and valuable bench player.. Q2 - as you stated John, an unknown and has been very dangerous in his two starts.. From all indications so far, we have something to work with.. In my brief time in seeing him play he has a deft touch on the ball (anti-Lassiter touch if you will) and has a great eye for spotting teamates in good scoring position.. Mapp - a definite question mark at this stage but to compare him to Convey, Nelsen and Olsen at this stage of his development is ridiculous.. Convey, Olsen and Nelsen were all starting and contributing to matches by this point in their rookie seasons.. By my count, Mapp has played a grand total of 3 minutes of MLS action.. I'm not blaming Mapp for this, I'm blaming Hudson and his absolute need to play boring veteran players rather than kids with talent and huge upsides.. I guess we'll never agree on this issue but United has sucked this year based on a lot of issues but the chief issue in my mind is lack of talent outside of the top players on this team...
That's what I'm thinking about him too. Since you came out so forcefully so early about Hudson's age bias, I've been watching closely to see if this were true. For awhile, Chris, I totally agreed with you. Now I'm hedging away from it again. The way I see it now is not so much that Ray has an age bias but that he so loves players who show in practice that they are that "fist of a team" that those guys get- got- most of the playing time so far. The thing is is that kids today approach the game in different ways often than what Ray experienced when he grew up. Am I saying that he's having a bit of a struggle in communicating with the newest generation? Yes. But one can't put a blanket generalization on a whole generation or upon the coach. Certainly there are young players on the team who he loved from the beginning. Alegria comes to mind here. Also Alevanja, Rimando, and Olsen are two favorites also, though they have been around a bit. So Ray has chosen to play those kids right away regardless of their talent. On the doghouse side there are or have been several players: Lisi, Ziadie, Nelsen, Mapp, Namoff, and sometimes Convey. But we also had a veteran in Conteh and I think his exception is important to note. ATC wasn't up for playing for us this year for whatever reason and Hudson was very publiclly frustrated about it and ATC's performances. Who was Conteh's eventual replacement? First Lassiter, which i think was not so much a move to get another vet in here but a move to see if he had any life in him since our forwards were so hurtin' and he was immediately available and Hudson knew about him.. But then when that didn't pan out, Ray went youth in Q2. Convey, as we know, responded to Hudson's challenges and upped his play. The other guys have either had to wait for injuries to occur (Nelsen) or have remained rooted to the bench or were traded almost ASAP. Should they have played? It's honestly hard to say. The two players who were most likely to be taking playing time away from the doghouse kids were two relative youngsters themselves, Alegria and Alevanja. Nelsen when given the opportunity has claimed a starting spot. However given that he and Pope were the only two incumbents from last year on defense one has to give Ray time to sort through who should start where as it wasn't that obvious that Prideaux and Pope were a bad combo in central defense. One can't say that Hudson was protecting McKinley at left back over Nelsen either since Nelsen would not fit there. Lisi and Ziadie. Ray was right to trade them. They have shown little with the metros even though they've had playing time. Mapp- Starting the rookie season months late is a problem in any sport. My guess really is that if we fall any further back in the playoff race than Mapp will get playing time. Finally we get to Namoff and I think he's the best example of different attitudes. (BTW, I'm not including Q1 or Curtis in this since the forward situation was so dire from the beginning that Ray had no choice in playing them.)
No, I think most people who can step back and objectively look at this team compared to others would say that it is a .500 club. The reason it is a .333 club at the moment is because of injuries to its starters. I have been told, and passed along in my notes and on the radio program, that members of the staff believed the "injury" theme of the previous 2 seasons was just an excuse. You can believe it or not. You just contradicted your own argument. How can a bench player that plays too often as a stater be a bench player? And, if that individual is a bench player, how can you compare starters to other bench players on other teams? They may have similar stats, but they have distinctly different roles on an MLS team. The reason they are overrated currently is because they are given "starters' standards" when in fact they are bench players forced to become starters. Fans are overrating Curtis and Lassiter because they expect them to be Moreno and Q1. Also, you are talking about this season, and I'm talking about next season. RH said that he wants them as "bench players" - RH doesn't have an "age bias," he has a talent bias (Ursula answered it better I could, and in more detail than I will). He doesn't feel that Mapp is mature enough to be a starter, but can become mature with some seasonsing; Curtis is a good "spark plug" off the bench; Namoff is a utility player that fits several positions, necessary in MLS because of the limited roster size (a smaller, faster version of Alavanja). You might be the only person blaming the bench as the chief reason for the poor season - I'd be interested in any others who agree with this notion. I would say that most, including the coaching and admin staff of DCUnited, would say that injuries to key players is the primary difficulty this season. As an aside - in 2000 the excuse was "bad luck." In 2001 the excuse was "inexperience." Even the physio Rick Guter said that while nagging injuries played their part, on the whole, the team was healthy compared to other MLS teams. That argument can be taken up on a seperate thread. (I do have those quotes and will find them if necessary). The logic is that with a "normal" number of injuries, most of the players we are discussing wouldn't even be seeing the field of play. By limiting the amount of time on the field they wouldn't be required to "win games" as starters. Because they haven't done that, they look like poor starters, when in fact they are bench players trying to do something they aren't paid to do - Yes, I know, everyone's ultimate role is to win, but their defined roles on the team are different. So, getting back to the original thread, next season Namoff, Mapp, McGinty, Curtis are a solid core of bench players to build THE BENCH around. It can certainly get better with trades and draft picks. . . . FYI - I don't know that those are the draft picks (#1, #11, and #15) for DCUnited in 2003, I'm just using them as examples in this scenario. . . . . Going off of intuition, and it is something I'll mark down to research as draft day starts rolling around in a couple of months, the first round players can begin as either starters or good bench players. Those same draft picks also hold high value in trade on Draft Day! The 11 thru 15 picks are normally solid bench players, or development players, who need to work on one specific aspect of their game. After that it becomes a crap-shoot. Playing armchair GM, I trade away first and third overall picks, and draft with my second. This is based on the obvious limitations of not seeing any college players in 2002, and not knowing what DCUnited's needs are going into 2003. With that in mind DCUnited should be able to pick up a very good bench player through trade, and a solid bench player through the draft.
John, I am not contradicting my own argument.. You know and I know that when the team is at full tilt, Curtis, Namoff, McKinley et all are all bench players.. That is my point.. Of course with the injuries they are "elevated" to starter status but that is only out of necessity.. As far as this team being only a .500 team with everyone healthy and available, that is certainly debatable.. Of course, we haven't had the opportunity to see this team on the field as of yet: ------------------- Rimando --------------------- Pope -------------- Nelsen ------------ Prideaux -------------- Williams ------ Olsen -------------- Reyes ------------- Etch --------------- Convey ------------- Moreno -------- Quaranta --------- Bench: Q2 McKinley Namoff Curtis Alegria McGinty With that lineup, I'd dare say we could cause some problems for other teams in this league as even now with all the injuries this current team defensively has been just about the best defensive team in United history.. Add to this the attack spearheaded by Olsen, Convey, Etch, Reyes, Moreno and Q1 and Q2 and we just might have a decent team to work with.. With all that being said, we obviously won't have the chance to find out until at least next season and even then things will probably be turned upside down again for the 3rd year running as Hudson will most certainly request that some "prized veteran" must certainly be added to bolster this squad.. I think the nucleus of a very good team is here right now, unfortunately the most prized and important pieces of that nucleus always seemed to be missing due to injury and we'll never know how good this team could eventually be.. I like the looks of this team heading into the Draft next season.. With either the #1 or #2 pick heading our way, we could go a long way towards shoring up some holes on our team.. These are the players I want to see back in camp next February.. Rimando McGinty Reyes Pope Prideaux Nelsen Etcheverry Convey Olsen Villegas McKinley Namoff Mapp Quaranta Q2 Moreno Curtis Bye bye to Ammann (too expensive) Alegria - will become and SI and just plain isn't worth the slot Williams - always been a Bitchie hater - way past his prime despite playing well on occasion this year Ludwig - please Lassiter - should have been axed after 4 games this season Heading into next season (if the above moves happen over the offseason), we would free up approximately $300,000 in cap space and would have 2 SI spots available.. This would or should leave plenty of wiggleroom for Hudson to bring in one of his over the hill English gems from the Vauxhall Conference in England to help the team and still leave a little money left over for draft picks.. We will be in a very good position next season in relation to using the high draft pick for bait.. Me personally, I would trade the #1 pick to the Galaxy for Simon Elliott and a later draft pick (perhaps 3rd or 4th round pick in 2003)..
Heck, I'm a big believer in building through the draft, especially one as loaded as this one should be, but I'd take that trade in a New York minute! Heck, as long as we're talking crazy trades that will never happen, why not trade for Twellman or Ruiz with the first pick? Seriously though, Simon Elliott is one of the truly marquee players in this league. After Ruiz (and arguably before Ruiz) he's the best player on the LA team. He gets precious little pub, but I agree with you Chris, he's awesome and would be a perfect addition to United as a true Hmid. But realistically, Ricardo Clark may be the top pick in the draft, and he could become a Simon Elliott type player. -Tron
Simon Elliott is a Galaxative wanker! We don't want him. Beside he could not even carry ABMOD's jock!
I'm calling you out on this one Jose.. Please tell me you are kidding when you suggest that ABMOD is better than Elliott... I really want to believe you are being facecious... Elliott, although a hated Galaxative, is a pure class player in MLS.. Calm, cool and has a demon shot to boot..
Where to begin on this one? Well at least we both agree that Simon Elliott is a Galaxative wanker! Richie Williams is American. Richie Williams is a proven winner. Richie Williams bleeds RED & BLACK! Richie Williams has never been given enough credit for DC United's success. Richie Williams is loyal to DC United. Richie Williams stood up to Thomas Rongen at RFK. Richie Williams is a fighter. Richie Williams is blamed for other people's shortcomings. & finally: Richie Williams is a better D-mid than Simon Elliott. Let's look at Simon: Simon is a loser. While Simon possesses a decent shot, has decent passing ability, and plays a very good at d-mid he would not improve that position for DC United. Did I mention that Simon is a loser. Simon is neither calm (specially when his team is behind) nor cool (MLS Cup meltdown!), and does not possess a demon shot (most of his shots end up in East-LA!). Did I forget to mention that Simon is a loser! To get an idea of how much I like Richie Williams, here is a little story. Before World Cup 1998 (Fall 1997), when the USA team was practicing at George Mason, I was talking to a group of people which included Soccer America editor Ridge Mahoney. Somehow John Harkes' name came up, I suggested that Richie Williams was a better D-mid. The people present in the conversation stared at me as if I was crazy. Maybe I am, but I really really like Richie Williams!
Jose, I really like Richie too and feel that he's never gotten the credit or love he deserves for his contributions to the team's glory years. Further, of all United's current problems, Richie is the least of them and there are plenty of other areas to upgrade before looking to relace the Ankle Biter. And, in the first 3-4 years of the league, Richie WAS a BETTER D-mid than Harkes! However, there is NO way that I would take Richie over Simon Elliott. This guy is one of the best center mids in the league. He's just as good as Richie is defensively and he's MUCH better going forward. As good a D-mid as Richie is, he's not nearly good enough to move forward and play the attacking mid role when needed. Elliott is. Nor can Richie slip to the flanks and play wide mid; he just doesn't have the wheels. By contrast, Simon can, and does, play wide sometimes for the Galaxy. Elliott's versatility and offensive skills make him a better player than Williams. That's just the way it is. Simon's also younger and has been in this country long enough that he's got to be close to a Green Card so he won't count as a fur'ner much longer. I love and respect Richie but there is no way I take him over Simon. BTW, love him or hate him, can people at least show Williams the respect of spelling his first name right - and I'm singling you out on this one Diceson, though you're certainly not the only one. There is NO "t" in Richie, at least not the way ABMOD spells it.
Good thread! Obviously DC needs some offense, both in terms of kids maturing quickly and someone that can be an instant producer. Also, I don't know that Rimando will ever be the keeper he is touted to be. There are more than a few quick, wide wing-spanned albatrosses coming up that might make an extremely athletic, dwarf-by-comparison GK slightly less appealing in years to come. Would you take Jon Busch over Rimando right now. Maybe not, but I'd consider it. Other stuff in this thread: <<<I think the quality of the most recent 2 drafts is evident even today. There are many draft picks producing in addition to the half dozen or so mentioned before (I think all these were draft picks - I could be wrong): *Carrieri had 14 points in limited minutes in '01. He's in the top 15 this season. He is already an "impact" guy. Shame about the missed ring as a reward for youthful arrogance. No sympathy here. *Kyle Martino and Edson Buddle are proving to be tough problems to solve in CLB. *Jeff Moore and Brad Davis for the 'Thugs are quality. Especially Davis - he's just flat worth watching. Faria came up through the reserve side, I don't know if he had to be "drafted" or not. *McGee in Chcago might be worth a mention also. *Robinson in SJ. That's just the guys that have found PT and have produced. Many more will pop up over time from these two drafts, especially if expansion hits again.>>> <<<Some have mentioned Olsen and Convey as "impact" players in league terms. Certainly we have seen shades of what each is capable of doing. Both of them have certainly ripped my team on occasion. Still between the two of them they have not put up 9 goals in just over 6 combined MLS seasons. Convey obviously has time to craft a reputation and Olsen might overcome the ankle operations. They might be impact guys, but they can't be considered that yet. No way.>>> <<<It was mentioned that DC has little depth and therefore no replacements given injuries. Many other teams have missed injuries or had depth to overcome. DC hasn't been so lucky. Still, it's a wonder how any MLS team could be lacking depth given a full college draft, 6 SI's, and 22 former starters available. Some blame has to go to the DC braintrust regardless. At least NE can just admit they neglected one side of the ball. The bright side to the problem for DC is that if the problem continues for a couple of years, expansion will even the table again. DC will be able to protect most of its' quality as opposed to everyone else. Doubtless, this board would like to see that solved before then.>>>
Fair enough, there are two sides to every coin. However, let me just add that Simon has been given the reign of the LA midfield. The team is mediocre at best. Simon will not take that team to the next level. And Richie Williams will one day be a DC United assisstant coach. Why get rid of him now. Besides, this whole talk is irrelevant as LA will not part with Simon.
I don't care who we get as long as they can score goals! I went to my first DC United game against the Revs and DC couldn't have hit a barn door with a banjo if they'd played all night. I've been reading a lot about about everyone's views on certain players and for what it's worth Etch is way too elaborate, Ivan McKinley is just plain garbage. I thought the set-up was too focused on the middle of the park and DC's best chances came when we used the wings. Anyways, still had a good time sitting in section 317 and I'll definately be back on my next visit. Jabe
In case anyone is interested, Dunivant and Jaqua had big games in the PDL semis. They can be seen in the finals next week on FSW.
One thing people are forgetting is that when drafting forwards out of college/hs takes them longer to develope and adjust to the professional game. Especially compared to a defender. The Quakes have been able to form a very good defensive unit with a couple of veterans and then by plugging in the young guys: Conrad, Robinson and Barrett. But for midfielders and forwards, their 2 draft picks this season (contraction draft and Super Draft) they picked Barclay and Lucci who have been getting limited playing time but have been developing and (from reports) looking great in practise. They won't help much this season, but they will be 2 more dangerous weapons for the Quakes (if SJ is still around next season ).