This seems like a pointless discussion to have now since he didn't move to America, but i should point out that Riquelme is miles better than Denilson, as Riquelme is actually still one of the very best offensive midfielders in the world, at the top of his game probably top 3. I'd also say he's better than any player MLS currently has. Like people have said, the problem is in his mentality, he seems to need an environment he likes and a coach that supports him completely. He's been frozen out of the team at Villarreal, but when he went back to Boca Juniors he was absolutely brilliant, like he often is in the national team. So...kind of a risk i guess, but the potential is gigantic. If he finds himself at a club he's comfortable at, he can likely be consistently brilliant, because he has certainly been in the past. (Something which separates him from Denilson, who has always underachieved and been ineffective everywhere)
so you two are going to compare a Denilson who's best days were clearly behind him BEFORE he came to MLS, to Riquelme, who is nominated for world football player of the year THIS YEAR, and is regarded as one of the most brilliant offensive midfielders RIGHT NOW? I'm not even going to argue with you guys if you think the two players are comparable right now. Also, superdave, why do you think a player of Riquelmes ability couldn't come over here and be a marketing success? Sure you might be right that at first glance the average American might have no idea who he is, but when he is lighting up the highlight real on sportscenter every night with his sublime dribbling skills, I think people will catch on. People in America like Ronaldinho, and know who he is because NIKE has put him everywhere, and because he can dribble with flair. You honestly think that MLS and ADIDAS couldn't do the same with Riquelme? I happen to think Riquelme is a more flashy player than Ronaldinho. So, while the market for Riquelme may not be large here, it could easily be created. How can you say that definitively? It is such a ridiculous argument for you to say, without question, that it is too much money for him. Oh, I forgot, you are a genius who doesn't need to do any market research to know that it wouldn't work. You are so intouch with the American market that you can just look at it on its face and reason that it is a stupid idea BECAUSE RIQUELME HIMSELF SAID THAT HE WILL ONLY GO TO A SPANISH OR ENGLISH SPEAKING COUNTRY why not? it is pretty cut and dry. you may be an idealist and think that all MLS clubs are striving to have the best citizens and best chemistry in the league. too bad it is more about money than anything else. In Europe the marketing money comes from success on the field andthe brand recognition that winning creates. In MLS brand recognition, most likely, comes from recognizable players more than it does from success on the field.
Yeah...he might not be famous in America now but maybe if he came over there to a club where everything works out with him and he performs at his best, people would eventually notice how high above Beckham and the rest of the league he is as a player. Just bringing in famous names can't be a better strategy for a league than bringing in one of the worlds top ten players. Also he would bring his team huge success, which surely is worth money. I admit it's kind of a gamble though, like i said, because sometimes he seems to just not work out with the team he's in. But that's been the case with many of the most brilliant players.
Riquelme has so far stood in a way of any possible deal because he wanted to move only back to Boca. They didn’t have the money villareal wanted, riquelme thought that by refusing to go anywhere else he could force villareal to lower the price and let him go to boca. Vilareal thought that by threatening to keep him in the stands till the end of his contract they could force him to go somewhere else. Incredibly stupid situation that’s keeping one of the 5 best players in the world in the stands for months. Riquelme just doesn’t want to go somewhere where he wouldn’t be able to play his football. He had a bad experience with Barcelona where the coach didn’t want him and he doesn’t want to go through something like that again. I think Juve and Ranieri could work very well for him . I don’t think he would have any interest in mls.
You have to be freaking kidding me ... Denilson was big like 5 years ago, and even then not nearly as big as Riquelme... You assume that soccer fans in the US are idiots ... Don't forget that there are millions of hispanics and other foreign born soccer fans who know exactly who he is. I'd guess that the average American fan who watched last year's World Cup knows who he is. Don't forget, MLS is supposed to be going after people that already like the sport, not necessarily trying to convert fans of other sports.
Roman is on the Argentine national team no matter where he plays he's Basile's pet... So coming to MLS is an option if MLS dealt out the cash.
Ummm...Mexicans arent even bringing in more Mexicans. Look at Chivas or the small amount that Blanco has brought in. Mexicans are not the key to MLS success right now. Mexicans understand the game. Once the league is more successful, they will come. MLS needs to keep focusing on the fringe fans. It costs far more to convert fans than it is to expose new ones.
I call shenanigans. You came in on a thread rather late on a thread that was justifiably petering out and resurrected it by 1) Changing the claim from "MLS is negligent in not signing Riquelme because he'd obviously be a great signing for the price" to "he might pay out if MLS is in a risk-loving mood," and 2) Trying to shift the burden of proof onto the other guy when it belongs on you. You can't posit the existence of intangibles that change the whole debate but that you yourself can't prove, and then chide the other guy for not metaphysically debunking them. IOW, due to certain intangible factors, you can't disprove that Jessica Alba, even though she doesn't happen to currently know who I am, will show up at my doorstep asking for a bit of the old bouncy bouncy--but it ain't bloody likely, is it? And I have a feeling that's what this is, a masturbatory fantasy on your part that you're just not willing to part with (in which case, I have two suggestions--try Jessica Alba, she's cuter; and spare the rest of us the intimate details). Otherwise, the only explanation I have is that you dislike superdave so much you're willing to press a point even you don't believe to try to get at him (which would mean he's in your head Rodman-style). Because in any other walk of life you would see that, while any major signing is a bet, this is a sucker bet--you're paying the price of a guaranteed commodity and getting the vague outside hope of an ROI, like paying 2:1 odds on a 10:1 shot. If you've gone the rounds at Vegas, you may have met folks who went all-in trying to pull the inside straight. Yeah, you might get it, but that's a dumb way to spend your money if you can avoid it.
The difference between his argument, and mine, is that he is saying the idea unequivocally will not work. He then basis his argument on cherry picked evidence (ticket revenue sales being the case here) as his categorical and undisputed truth as to how the money could not be made. If you read my posts you would see that I am NOT suggesting that a certain Juan Roman Riquelme would be a marketing success for the league. Rather, I point out how absurd it is to say that he would not work out in MLS. It's ridiculous how people in these forums say, absolutely, how things willor will not work out, when they have no proof, or evidence other than conjecture to back up their statements. How is it even possible that the burden of proof has been solely in my possession? I'm not trying to prove anything other than the false nature of someones convoluted argument. It is rather funny that you think the two hypothetical situations even hold the same amount of water in this discussion. please go back through my posts and find the part where I unabashedly pronounced my belief that Roman would be here in MLS? Sorry that I called out your bff superdave, and his ridiculous absolute theories which should truely go unquestioned. how? explain this to me? the is the path in logic that i dont understand. please break down and explain your theory (without using cute little metaphors about hot actresses). And dont give me the "burden of proof" bullshit, because you are the one who is stating something as being fact without any shred of evidence to back up your point. you're so clever
First I dont really think the league is interested in bringing the "average" american fan away from the NFL, but the thousands of football fans already here, who'll flock to see Barcelona, or Real Madrid or Chelsea. Said fans know very well who Riquelme is and the great majority will agree that -football wise- he's alot better than Beckham. actually, Figo or Riquelme would be my dream signing for the Chivas next season... I doubt it will happen, but it would be cool, thought
No doy! That's why I said you changed the claim. You clearly had no regard for the central claim of the thread, or the context in which superdave was speaking. Here's what essentially happened when the context is put back: OP: We didn't sign Riquelme? Who's to blame for this travishamockery?! SD: WTF? Expecting to make money off Riquelme with a $10M transfer fee before you pay his seven figure salary is {crazy/absurd/foolish/impossible}! On the substance of that response in context, he's basically right. But basically's apparently not good enough for you because of who you're dealing with rather than what, so what we're left with is you parsing the difference between those four words so you can score some points on one guy. That's changing the claim from the one that was the basis of this dubious thread--can you not see this? Secondly, he's using those terms as near equivalents, and you're basically picking at his rhetorical style, not his point. Because, if you're trying to weaken his point, his point is the debating "negative" (which means the status quo, that JRR is not signed by MLS and we don't spend tens of millions extra), the burden of proof lies on those who argue for changing it, the so-called "positive." If that's all, then your point has no point. If all you're arguing is that superdave's not a great communicator, I respond that neither are you, since all you had to do was say that. And yet you failed to actually respond to the analogy, as easy as you claim that would be to do. It really is all about one guy for you, isn't it? What's got me here is that you're so insistent on taking one poster to task without giving a crap if you actually make your own point or not. My claim is that one couldn't present a business case for signing a player under the conditions we're talking about. You won't even come on the record to state whether you dispute that, but if you don't dispute it, your point is petty. The reason why you think it's "BS" is that you don't know, or care, where you came in on the thread. You came in because some language, in one post, from a poster you don't like, irked you, and you tried to make a valid debate on that--but it takes more. You have to actually make a substantive, testable claim before you can chide others for their alleged inability to debunk you.
I think Riquelme would be a great fit in NYRB if Reyna retires. Plus they can afford whatever price he costs. He'd also be a star player for their new stadium.
Just to remind everyone of the original debate. I'm not proud of the language I used in the first post. The new meds are kicking in and I'm mellowing out, but that first post was a month and a half ago. But remember, AmericanKaka was saying JRR would be worth $5M a year. I disagreed. Surely you see that $5M is just a totally unrealistic figure for JRR.
I started actively watching soccer about two years ago. Before that I was the normal baseball, American football, college basketball, golf fan. I watched soccer during the World Cup and only knew a few names. Riquelme was one of them. I'm not saying he's got the same star power as Beckham, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho or Zidane....but he's in a 2nd tier I believe. If someone paid for him, I think they'd at least break even on him. Attendance would jump, so would jersey sales and overall interest level in the team. I think it could work for a team like New York or Chivas.
I agree that the figure he suggested is unrealistic. I just thought that your notion that he could not work here, and that ticket revenue was the only source of roi, was off base. I'll end my part of the discussion there, since Stan Collins can't take it that a thread was revived, and that it deviated from the original point. Sorry for wasting everyones time. Sincerely, Juan Roman
Riquelme. His name just like his game has a slick tone to it. He has that suprise element to his game and that alone is why everytime I watch his games I sit on the edge of my seat. It's a damn shame Boca Jrs. could not retain his services after the loan. Based on the so-called asking price that Villarreal has mentioned he might be affordable for Boca. It amazes me how a guy of his caliber can not get games for Villarreal. I know it has nothing to do his play. I wonder what the true story is. He was nothing but a gentleman with Boca. Though not playing his form with Argentina has been head shaking recently. Simply amazing! I would love MLS to go after Riquelme but I highly doubt he comes. In fact I would bet on a 5% chance or less. His talent alone could propel a club to European success. I bet a Champions League club comes calling. I have no idea why but I have a feeling with the upgrades Bayern Munich have had this season, they might come calling for Riquelme.
But what is the actual basis of your disagreement, other than that he won't make that sum in ticket sales alone, which we all agree on? I think the dude's point is that you haven't actually cited any evidence for why that is "totally unrealistic." Maybe it is, but I don't think we can say "surely" it is without some shred of justification... said justification being conspicuously lacking so far from you and SC. I mean, sexual fantasy and Vegas metaphors are great and al, but I don't think they rise to the level of "business case." I think the burden on you is to prove, in a league in which more than one owner is clearly playing a very long game of brand building and willing to ship losses in the short term, and with Beckham and Blanco precedents in place, that Riquelme, probably one of the top five players in the world, could not deliver the kind of value for the investment that would attract one or more MLS owners. I'm not saying you guys are stupid, but I think that saying joekeefe80 and I are stupid is stupid.
I'm late to the debate, but Riquelme at a $10m transfer fee seems like a horrible idea. If he's not going to bring in the extra revenue, I don't see how you're going to justify it. Beckham and Blanco are about paying off now. Sure, they're building brand, but they're also putting butts in seats and moving merchandise. And each of them are a special case. Riquelme is nothing like Beckham and Blanco in terms of marketing. The only other two teams who have ponied up money are NY and Dallas. And both of those guys were much cheaper than Riquelme and neither have had the desired effect. Angel is a great addition to MLS, but he's not earning his salary and he hasn't changed the NY market. I talk to a lot of soccer-indifferent sports fans and euro-snobs. Riquelme isn't going to move either of those groups. The first group won't know who he is, the second group will dismiss him because he plays in MLS. Hell, the second group doesn't even care about Villareal. If it's not Real or Barca (or Man U or Chelsea) then it's just not worth bothering with.
But Bayern are not in the Champions League this year. And neither are Juve, the recently rumored suitor. The fact that Riquelme is available in January and not cup-tied makes his value much greater to a club that is still alive in the Champions League at that point and needs a boost. For that reason, if Riquelme does stay in Europe, it would surprise me if he went to one of those two clubs. Of course, illogical transfers happen all the time, so he could very well end up there. But speaking in terms of competitive position and finances, and considering that other Spanish clubs are out of the question, Chelsea and Marseille are probably the only logical destinations for Riquelme. Yet there are solid reasons to doubt whether he would really end up at either. And that means the chances he ends up outside Europe are better than they might appear. In that case, if Boca can't come up with the cash, and AEG or RB or someone else can... If none of the big boys make a move, would JRR really rather go to Fenerbahce or Shakhtar than an MLS team? Maybe... but maybe not. BM and Juve will not be willing to shell out as much because they have no immediate results pressure, and of course everyone knows Villareal is over a barrell to get rid of him. They might be very grateful for a "white knight" bid from the US paying over the odds.
You have to be freaking kidding me ... If anyone is not earning his salary it's Reyna. Angel on the other hand makes his team better which does have an effect on attendance and overall marketability in the long run. And even attendance wise he probably does have an effect. Maybe not in the thousands like Blanco or the tens of thousands like Beckham, but certainly in the hundreds which is still more than 99% of players in MLS.
I know Bayern and Juve aren't in the CL but they are building towards it next season and Riquelme would be a perfect building block. As to Bayern and Juve not willing to shell out much, you are wrong. Bayrn have spent an huge amount this summer on Klose, Ribery, Toni, Altintop, Jansen, Sosa, and Schlaudraff to assure themselves a Bundesliga crown and get themselves back into the CL. They upgraded their team as much as humanly possible to erase last season's nightmare. Bayern were embarrassed and their suppoters put huge amounts of pressure on management to restore their pride. Juve, likewise ,spend a huge amount on Tiago, Almiron, Ianquinta, and Andrade where each were bought for €9M or more. Juve spent, much like, Bayern, to restore their pride, finish high in Serie A and aim to return to the CL. The money is there for both to spend and I could see Riquelme gravitating towards a Bayern or Juve. Not saying it would happen. Not even saying they would be interested, a part from the rumored Juve interest, but Riquelme would be in a good situation i think
I'm not going to disagree with you on Reyna, but I'm arguing on a revenue in-cost out basis, Angel doesn't cover his additional cost. Say he brings an extra 200 people to a NY game. 15 games @ $30/ticket. That's less than $100,000. I'm not saying he's not a good player. I'm not saying that overall perceptions of quality don't matter. I'm saying that DPs are supposed to bring more and Angel doesn't. Which is fine. If Red Bull wants to spend the money, without getting a financial return, more power to them. But with Riquelme we are talking about spending a lot more money, and no one is MLS has shown any interest in doing that without getting a return.