Which Will Happen First?

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by MarioKempes, Dec 3, 2004.

  1. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    All of our starting players will play in big clubs in World Class [TM] leagues, or MLS will be a world class league?

    Discuss.

    I will argue the former. I think MLS is already a top 20-30 league in the world, but a fundamental shift in American sports would have to occur for MLS to become World Class. I think this is possible, but won't happen in my lifetime. However, I think in about 25 years all of the USMNT "starting" players will play at top clubs. The sons of Beasley, Donovan, and Reyna will enjoy the fruits of their ancestor's work. Special thanks to Eric Wynalda, Paul Caligiuri, and Bruce Murray.

    This will happen because (1) the American player is now accepted overseas and is starting to be sought out, (2) the level of coaching at the highest levels of youth soccer has reached acceptability, and this will filter down to lower levels as the game gains more popularity, (3) the potential for making big money overseas is now becoming clear to young players and their parents, and (4) the continued success of the national team creates role models out of the best players -- players who have taken a successful path overseas.
     
  2. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    I don't know that either will ever happen.
     
  3. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    USMNT arguably has 1/2 of its healthy players at top clubs - DMB at PSV, Reyna at ManCity, O'Brien at Ajax, Donovan at Bayer Leverkusen, Howard and Spector at ManU (albeit on the bench as of now).

    The second tier of players: Bocanegra and McBride at Fulham, Cherundolo at Hanover, Casey at Mainz, Russell at RBK, West at Fredrickstad, Onyewu at Standard Liege are at least playing for either average teams in good leagues or good teams in average leagues. (Goalkeepers can really play for smaller clubs. If anything, they get more work that way)

    If/when, Onyewu, Dempsey and GAM step up to the higher ranked teams, you'd pretty much have the entire US roster enjoying Euro respectability and this can take place not by 2,025 but within the next 6-9 months.
     
  4. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I would say that only Beasley plays at a top club at the moment. Howard doesn't start reguarly, nor does Spector. And none of the other clubs are top clubs in World Class leagues. Not even BL, and Donovan has yet to show that he will start anyway.

    We are years away from my proposal becoming reality.
     
  5. art

    art Member

    Jul 2, 2000
    Portland OR
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Top club for the Netherlands, perhaps, not really a giant world class club really though, yes? The Netherlands is a good league but hardly at the stature of a Spain or England, I mean guys like Nistelroy and Robben leave clubs like PSV, they dont join them. And theyve only now got into the knockout stages of the CL, for the first time ever? I'd argue PSV aren't really a top club.
     
  6. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    While I understand the point you are trying to make, PSV has clearly been one of the best clubs in the world this season. In fact, there isn't any real evidence to suggest that Chelsea and the like are any better than them right now.

    Robben and RVN leaving PSV has a lot more to do with economics than it does the quality of PSV compared to Chelsea and ManUtd.
     
  7. therealronaldo7

    therealronaldo7 New Member

    Apr 14, 2004
    Chicago
    While PSV has had a nice season thus far and I do think they are a world class club, I would beg to differ that there has not been any real evidence that Chelsea are not any better than PSV right now. Have you seen Chelsea destroying teams in both the EPL and the Champions League? It pains me as I am a Fulham fan, but Chelsea is the real deal. PSV does not stand a chance against them. Chelsea's evidence is on the field in their performances.
     
  8. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Compared to what? Lazio? Parma? Porto? Roma?

    If top players on the Italian, Portuguese, etc. national teams can be regulars on those rosters, why can't the likes of PSV and Leverkusen be considered their equal?

    Why is Hanover, which is in 5th place in B-liga, considered worse than Roma or Lazio which are 12th and 13th in Serie A?

    This doesn't make sense to me.
     
  9. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    PSV has only dropped points to Arsenal in the CL (lost 1-0 on an own goal and had a 1-1 draw) while they are undefeated in domestic play and have gone 11 domestic matches in a row w/o conceding a goal (outscoring their foes 23-0 during that time).

    While the EPL is a tougher league than the DE, I don't see how you can clearly state that Chelsea has had a better run.

    Because of the leagues they play in and because of the names Chelsea has in its squad you would think that Chelsea is better, but that may not be the case.

    To keep this on topic, I don't think DC United is as good as Chelsea or PSV. ;)
     
  10. therealronaldo7

    therealronaldo7 New Member

    Apr 14, 2004
    Chicago
    Well, I hope PSV beats their asses when and if they play them. PSV is on a great run right now that is for sure. Perhaps you are right. I just think the Dutch league is down a lot this season. Ajax is down, Feyenoord is down and there are not really any great clubs to compete with PSV this year. That is not taking away what PSV has done, I just think that the EPL is much stronger to bottom thus giving the edge right now to Chelsea.
     
  11. Tigerpunk

    Tigerpunk Member

    Jun 17, 2004
    The first, clearly. It's not even a difficult discussion.

    Here's the likely starting lineup (I use likely loosely).

    Eddie Johnson, Casey Connor, Landon Donovan, DMB, JOB, Claudio Reyna, Greg Vanney, Cory Gibbs, Carlos Bocanegra, Steve Cherundolo, Tim Howard/Brad Friedel/Keller, whatever.

    Now, if the Eddie Johnson move works, we're a Cory Gibbs away from having all 11 starters playing for euro clubs. Granted, Vanney, Cherundolo, Connor and to a lesser degree Reyna and Bocanegra aren't playing for CL clubs, but the move is startling. And the trend is continuing, as you will see players like Adu, Gaven, and Szetela making the leap as soon as they can.

    I think by 2010 or 2014 you'll see a model looking much like the first, with the majority of our players coming from Champions League teams in England, Germany, and Holland (and possibly Adu at a place like Inter Milan or Barcelona).
     
  12. johan derksen

    johan derksen BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 14, 2004
    Venlo, Netherlands
    I think you meant Ajax is down this season. :p

    In the past weeks;

    Heerenveen beat Stuttgart (#3 in Germany)
    AZ beat Auxerre (#4 in France)
    Feyenoord beat Schalke 04 (#2 in Germany)
    PSV draw with Arsenal (#2 in England)
    AZ beat Glasgow Rangers (#1 Scotland)

    and Ajax only lost 2-0 to Mac.Tel Aviv (#4 in Israel) ;)
     
  13. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    Just ask yourself. I'm a famous 20 year old argentine doing really well for Boca or River. I'm told I'll be a starting player wherever I go. Roma and Lazio have gone on recent buying binges (as they have done in recent years) to build a champion. PSV is what they always are. A great dutch team that builds young talent and, more often than not, if they are a success, sells them off. Where do you go? To me the answer is obvious. And it shows on the rosters. PSV simply do not have the biggest names in football the way the top teams of Spain, Italy or England have. PSV just doesn't. and I think that's what distinguishes the types of teams Mario is talking about from PSV.
     
  14. T Nitty

    T Nitty New Member

    Jun 3, 2004
    MD
    I'd go with the players-on-top-clubs choice. We've got young Americans coming up through the systems with top EPL clubs, and our MLS'ers are getting more minutes in Europe.

    Meanwhile, MLS is barely making a blip on the US sporting radar. They're building 20k-seat stadiums that will not be consistently sold-out. "Veterans" from South and Central America are some of the top players in the league. For a 10-year-old league, it seems MLS is doing alright, but there's still work to do.
     
  15. therealronaldo7

    therealronaldo7 New Member

    Apr 14, 2004
    Chicago
    You might be right there. I do not get to see the Dutch league any more as Fox Sports World does not show it. I was disappointed in my Dutch team, FC Utrecht's showing in the UEFA Cup. It was brutal.
     
  16. Joel Goodson

    Joel Goodson Member

    Jan 10, 2001
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why don't you wait until Chelsea shreads Arsenal on the 12th before using the Gunners as a barometer by which to judge PSV. In fact, tune into Chelsea v Newcastle tomorrow morning at 7:30 and then comment on whether PSV is in Chelsea's class. :cool: ;)
     
  17. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    We could all make a list of top clubs. There would be some disagreement, but they might include

    Real Madrid
    Barcelona
    Deportivo
    Valencia
    Chelsea
    Arsenal
    ManU
    Juventus
    AC Milan
    Olympic Marseille
    Monaco
    Bayern Munich
    PSV
    Ajax
    Boca River
    Corinthians
    Palmeiras
    Pick one of Vasco/Gremio/Santos
    maybe Olympiakos
    maybe Galatassaray

    How many US players actually play and start for one of those clubs? Only Beasley at PSV. Just playing in Europe doesn't meet the criteria.
     
  18. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    I think the more relevant question, or questions, is/are how many MLS curent players will make the 2006 World Cup team, (by current, I mean at the time of the World Cup) and will Arena feel pressure to include MLS players on his roster?

    Certainly MLS will be well-represented with former MLS players who are now in Europe, and that will certainly reflect well on the league, but looking at the pool right now, I don't see too many players who are in MLS right now who I feel safe saying will be among the 23 in Germany.

    Certainly Eddies Pope and Johnson, Pablo Mastroeni, Kerry Zavagnin, Cory Gibbs, Josh Wolff, and, maybe, a No. 3 GK depending if Friedel calls it quits.

    But, of those players just listed, EJ could very well be in Europe by the World Cup and Mastroeni and Gibbs (though he makes very good money here) too, if the right circumstance comes about.

    There are some MLS guys on the fringe - Martino, Buddle, Dempsey - who could crack the roster if they continue to show well, but right now, you wouldn't pencil them in.

    Last time around, it was a great source of pride whern Donovan, Beasley, Mathis, etc...
     
  19. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I can definitely answer this.... :)

    I'm sure you meant 2006 :D
     
  20. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    I would add Bayer and Liverpool to that list.
     
  21. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
     
  22. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Roma and Lazio on buying binges?

    You mean selling binges due to an accumulation of debt incurred over the previous decade?

    Do you follow the Euro sport outside of the YAs?

    Well, that's the problem. You go off names and reputation and not results because some clubs have, perhaps deservingly, earned that reputation over the last 10-15 years that you have been following the game.

    Personally, I can remember when the Dutch clubs ruled among the soccer elite but I am not going to the days of Ralf Edstrom at PSV to say that it's a good ball club.

    Like Johan said, look at the latest results and don't live off the names of clubs that may appear in your local papers.
     
  23. ugaaccountant

    ugaaccountant New Member

    Oct 26, 2003
    Frankly i'd rather have our top players at the big name teams. Even if early season results say that Shalke, Stuggart, Wolfsburg, Hannover, etc. are all better than Bayer Leverkusen, I don't see that as a reason to want our top players there. I see a season's results as extremely short term to chose a team for a player who could go anywhere. I'm estatic for a part time national teamer like Cherundolo or Mathis to be at Hannover. But I don't want Eddie Johnson sold there, I want to see him at the Bayer Leverkusen's of the world for 3 reasons.
    1. If they are currently underperforming then there is greater opportunity to shake things up and play our player.
    2. The big name clubs will continue buying good players to maintain their name. They will be back on top soon.
    3. The big name clubs play on more tv, more high profile matches, more highly attended matches. This leads to our players being more comfortable in the spotlight of say a world cup.

    For other examples Manchester united is currently 4th in EPL and Real Madrid was 4th (I think) in la liga last year. I would expect both to win a champions league in the next few years so I'm very excited we have 2 players at Man U fighting for a spot instead of at a mid level team.
     
  24. johan derksen

    johan derksen BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 14, 2004
    Venlo, Netherlands
    Or wait, why don't we compare Chelsea's and PSV's budgets and how many millions both spend in the past year. Let's see who does better given their opportunities.

    You think PSV would've sold Romario, Ronaldo, Nilis, van Nistelrooy, Kezman, Robben, Stam, Zenden just as easy if they'd have a Russian sugar daddy too?
     
  25. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    Point of information, I think most german soccer fans would consider Schalke a bigger club than LEverkusen. I think.
     

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