When a red card back-fires

Discussion in 'Referee' started by uclacarlos, Nov 6, 2004.

  1. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    O.k. I encountered a situation that I thought might be beneficial for the discussions in this forum. I am not a ref, so please forgive me for any Referee Forum decor myshaps... ;)

    Red cards and how in some instance they can actually elevate tension on the field…

    Last weekend in a co-ed rec game, I got my first ever red card. 20th minute, my team’s up 2-0. A very physical opposing player shoves his ass in my crotch as he “protected” the ball. No foul called, and I, like an idiot, chased after him to try dispossess him. Whoops, I clipped his ankle in an attempt to get the ball. Whistle blown. No surprise until the ref brings out the red card. I was shocked, as it was not a malicious foul, but I kept my mouth shut and walked off the field. It is, after all, a rec league and it was obvious I was going for some payback, albeit not malicious. At most, it was a yellow card, and even that would have been a bit much. But it was my mistake.

    My team was stunned, as it wasn’t even one of the worse fouls committed up to that point.

    In the 2nd half, things start to escalate as we were trying to protect the lead and they came out w/ guns blaring. The same guy that started the sequence that got me my red card, takes out one of our speedy forwards from behind. Foul was called, no yellow. Same situation happens 4 minutes later, although not as harsh of a foul. No card.

    By now things are starting to escalate mainly b/c the opposing team saw that it had carte blanche and nothing was going to be called. Finally, one of their female players gets dispossessed and ensues to trip on purpose the lady that did so. Yellow. Big mistake, b/c I had received a red card for that exact same offense. A few minutes later, one of their female players gets dispossessed and proceeds to shove our player and get in her face.

    Red card! The first red card to a female player in the league in over 4 seasons! The game is now way out of control, as fouls are happening every 30 seconds. Minutes later, for the third time, our speedy forward gets taken out from behind with a hard slide tackle (slide tackles are illegal in the league). No yellow card. And a few minutes later, one of our female player dispossesses theirs, the ball rebounds to one of their players, who can’t control the ball, so one of our players clears the ball. Both these players simultaneously shove our ladies to the ground. No cards!! (for those keeping track, that’s 4 ladies w/ red-card-able offenses in a league in which ladies getting yellow cards is newsworthy.)

    Instead, whistle blows, as the ref calls the game despite over 10 minutes left. (We won 3-2.)

    As an observer on the sideline, I couldn’t help but notice that the game got out of hand b/c the ref had not been consistent in doling out punishment. From the perspective of our team, he had been severe in handing out a red card for a foul that was ticky-tack compared to the fouls that he was allowing. And to watch him allow 2 separate players shove 2 others to the ground after the ball had been cleared just cemented the fact that the ref was inconsistent in his punishment. He did make the right call in finishing the game early, but those ladies deserved direct red cards. I at least was trying to make a play on the ball.

    And from the other team’s perspective, they saw that they could get away with more egregious fouls and took full advantage. By the time that he started calling things evenly, it was too late, b/c he had called it one way for 60 minutes (carte blanche) and then all of the sudden changed (no, you can’t shove opponents to the ground).

    In this case, if he had given me a yellow card, there wouldn’t have been that glaring gap in severity of punishment and it wouldn’t have led to confusion for both teams. The least he could have done is to make a concerted effort to show that he was even-handed. But the time he did so, it was too late.
     
  2. pasoccerdave

    pasoccerdave Member

    Mar 30, 2004
    SE Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First off, kudos to you for confessing your intent, taking your card and exiting the field in a respectful manner.

    What was the nature of the game up to that point? Was it a physical match? Had there been fouls called? Had there been any cards issued?

    You are correct, that a card issued (esp red) changes the nature of the game significantly. It's been said that a foul in the 5th minute should be the same as a foul in the 85th minute, but I think it's the rare referee that can say they've always treated them the same.

    Was this a 1 referee system, or were there assistants the referee could have concurred with?

    Given your description, it does sound like one of those ugly games that everyone (players AND referees) look back on later, wishing that things had broken for them differently.
     
  3. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    What was the nature of the game up to that point? Was it a physical match? Had there been fouls called? Had there been any cards issued?
    My red was the first card. Up to that point, there had only been a few fouls, all against us. He hadn't called a foul on them yet, although they were by far the more physical team. Typically my team is in the bottom third in the league as far as cards received, i.e. we're one of the more mellow teams. This new team is already the most carded team. We really wanted those final 2 reds b/c it would be more justification for the league not to ask them back for next season. (Plus, it would have at least been consistent w/ the previous 2 reds and would have screwed them up big time for this weekend as a direct red gets a 1 game suspension.) We don't expect the ref to know what's going on in a rec league, but it took him too long to figure out that the other team was the instigator in the physical play. If he had carded the fouls from behind, and if he had given a direct red to the yellow described, the game would not have gotten out of hand.
    Was this a 1 referee system, or were there assistants the referee could have concurred with?
    One linesman, whom he ignored quite a bit, was there for linguistic purposes as well as to ref. The carded fouls all ocurred far from the linesman.
     
  4. ur_land

    ur_land New Member

    Aug 1, 2002
    Boulder, CO
    Linguistic purposes?
     
  5. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Yeah, not every team can communicate w/ the ref, and vice versa. I didn't want to go into that b/c it's an entirely different thread (culture/language barriers). But yeah, good catch on a subtle hint...
     
  6. ur_land

    ur_land New Member

    Aug 1, 2002
    Boulder, CO
    I don't think that cultural differences are necessarily an unrelated topic. There can be huge differences between teams of different cultures in how they play and expect the referee to call the game, which can lead to problems. I'm not saying that that was the main issue in this case, but it may have contributed.
     
  7. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I didn't want to get into it, b/c my main point is that doling out a red-card early in the game sets draws a clear line, which can get erased if one isn't consist. Then with the line erased, things spiral out of control b/c of confusion.

    But here's how the linguistico-cultural issue played out:

    The ref and the opposing team were both Hispanic. The main problem was that they were begging for fouls in Spanish, and he was giving them the calls. But when I asked (not begged) for a call in Spanish: nada. When my teammates asked in English: nada. I kind of think that b/c I'm a whiter latino w/ a Spanish accent, that that seriously played into the whole dynamic, which to me was a shock b/c I had never been made to feel white b4, but it happens up here a lot. None of the Latino refs treat me the same as they do the more mestizo players. I've been working on my Dominican accent, maybe that'll get me some street cred.

    Apparently, this is a pretty common issue in the Bay Area: teams and refs of one culture are less objective as the soccer field becomes a theater (finally that they control, at least for 2 hrs) for larger social issues.

    And I'm sure it cuts both ways, that the non-English speakers feel excluded when the ref doesn't speak their language and feel impotent in the situation.

    But given the shortage of refs, I guess we can't be picky and do what they do at the international level: refs come from non-participating countries.

    Isn't it amazing how soccer and concepts of national identity are so intimately linked?
     
  8. pasoccerdave

    pasoccerdave Member

    Mar 30, 2004
    SE Michigan
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Understandable why you would want to leave the ethnic part out of the original post.

    Your original point remains valid - an early red changes the nature of the game. Last night's Revs-DC United match is a case in point. Shalrie Joseph gets a yellow in the first minute. It affected his play the rest of the night. The same play later in the match is likely a red. It seemed to me the ref chose to set a slightly milder tone with the yellow.

    Your story reminds me of an ongoing question I have - at the professional club level, does the coach use the native country's language to run practice? I look at the make up of club teams, and you can find 6, 7, 8 different languages sometimes. How are those ethic issues managed?
     
  9. refmike

    refmike New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Cal North
    It seems the ref made several mistakes, one of which was to allow a red-carded player to remain at the field. You were supposed to leave the area.

    Several generalizations have been made here, one of which is that the ref (among others) will likely look back on this game and wish he had done better. I wonder if this was his first co-ed game or possibly his first adult game. It's too bad we all have to learn at the expense of the players in our first few games. Can't someone build a virtual soccer game where we can practice the calls and see the results of bad calls (retaliation, dissent, etc)?
     
  10. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    What, moi, wrong? ;)
    Yeah, I thought about that, but then again, if he didn't enforce it, and the other team didn't either, then I figured what the heck. I did stay relatively quiet, just cheering my team on.

    I'm glad I did that (be quiet), too, b/c low and behold, we were assigned the same ref this weekend. (I was forced to sit out a rain-out make-up game this past Sat.) And to his defense, there's a method to his "madness". In short, our team had already adjusted to his style of reffing. The opposition was having fits and whining about the non-calls. The main difference is that the original team we played went overboard in taking liberties w/in his style of arbitration, and that escalated into a dangerously physical game.

    I think my original point stands, and a ref needs to be aware of how his/her style is received by the players and make necessary adjustments, just like any form of communication. After watching him for 2 games, he's a decent ref.
     
  11. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    "Typically my team is in the bottom third in the league as far as cards received, i.e. we're one of the more mellow teams. This new team is already the most carded team. We really wanted those final 2 reds b/c it would be more justification for the league not to ask them back for next season. "

    I have never refereed adult co-ed rec soccer, but I am surprised to hear that it is so physical. I assume your league is truly co-ed and not just a few female players in an otherwise all men's league. Given the physical disparity between the players, and the fact that it is a "rec" league, I would think only a real loser would go full spead banging and tackling. On the other hand, I could see retaliation fouls quickly arising if a player started getting very physical in a game with rec and female players. If a couple of players are playing rough in a co-ed rec league, I would be inclined to not give them any slack. In my experience, even players in a MEN'S rec league are interested in having a good time and working the next day and don't want a really rough game. [or maybe I come from a whimpy part of NJ].

    I adjust my "roughness" meter to the game being played, and I think it would be at 8 or 9 for what I would think is a typical adult co-ed rec game.
     
  12. pensmom4

    pensmom4 New Member

    Oct 25, 2004
    Absolutely!! If you have the technology, I'll pay the money! ;)
    Lee
     
  13. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I totally agree w/ the adjusting for "roughness" depending on the league, game, etc.

    The league's not that bad. The vast majority of players are like you said: everybody has to work the next day. But there are players (especially former rugby players) who are a bit more physical than the average player. From there arise the tension. Also, we have rules in place that if you get 2 red cards in one season, you're subject to expulsion from the league. And the league enforces that pretty well. It's led to the disbanding of a couple of teams.
     
  14. Jeff from Michigan

    Jeff from Michigan New Member

    Dec 22, 1999
    Livonia, Michigan
    I've both played and ref'd adult co-ed soccer...and at the rec-level, it is largely a non-physical game. The women tend to "civilize" the men...and the only thing that tends to get players angry is (a) if the guys start bullying the gals, or (b) some hot-shot wannabe, pretending he's playing in the English Premier League, starts bashing into people.

    Since I wasn't at the game, I hesitate to venture any other opinion on the referee in question. But in my own experience as a player, the only problems we ever had in our adult co-ed leagues were due to poor officiating --- and even then, usually both teams would simply play around the ref, to accomodate the fact that he was sleeping through the game.

    Jeff Caminsky
    Livonia, Michigan



     
  15. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    Exactly. Which is why the discussion of slide tackling and other very aggresive plays for such a league seemed strange to me. And like you said, if some "hot shot wannabe" acts up and the ref doesn't do anything, the players will "fix" the problem themselves.
     
  16. mrgifted

    mrgifted New Member

    Apr 23, 2002
    Well, there's your first clue the ref was about to get himself in trouble...
     
  17. brhsoccer14

    brhsoccer14 New Member

    Nov 18, 2004
    Baton Rouge, LA, USA
    Is there a certain history between your teams? I know it is a co-ed rec league, but is there history between ur teams?...

    Also, good for you to exit as you did to not make it an even tougher game for the already mishandled game...

    If everything what you said is exactly true and no exaggerations, you are extremely right! As a ref, no card would have been needed in the league you play in, but a harsh verbal punishment at most... i mean come on, it is co-ed rec league, not the world cup...

    As for the rest of the game, it probably would not have happened had the ref taken matters into his hands earlier by not giving you the card and keeping control of the other team....

    I'm a referee in Baton Rouge, LA and am 16 years old, just in case you are wondering... if you want to take my opinion since i am so young
     
  18. njref

    njref Member

    Mar 29, 2003
    New Jersey
    The nice thing about internet boards is that you are judged by the quality of your posts and not your age or looks...so no need to qualify your post by saying how old you are. For all I know, 2/3 of the posters on this board could be younger than you are.

    I congratulate you on taking a key step to being a successful referee, which is to engage in dialogue with others concerning finer points of the game.
     
  19. brhsoccer14

    brhsoccer14 New Member

    Nov 18, 2004
    Baton Rouge, LA, USA
    Thank you, I know you shouldnt judge by age, but i thought i would just mention it... i know ur right, but i thought i would just mention it for the jury... hehe
    anyway, i want to become a good ref and am trying to go to odp next summer and most of the state refs here said i am easily going to become ref of the year, but i doubt it, for 2005...i dont think im that good.. but i hope my opinion helped!
     
  20. phillips10

    phillips10 New Member

    Oct 15, 2001
    Cranford
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    this is a good point, I'm a youth/hs referee and an adult league player...sounds like the official in this coed league made very little attempt to communicate with the players.

    perhaps a yellow at the first harsh foul and communicating with both captains could have calmed things down from the start...
     

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