What if the Ballon d'Or was awarded to all players from any origin & club?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bavarian14, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    It is a brazilian tradition to anoint a scapegoat for every world cup exit
    Not my words but zico's

    Serginho was the sacrificial lamb in 1982 and zico became one in 1986
     
  2. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Maybe he wasn't until 1961, but perhaps he was considered the premier player after 1965 (and not only in the first half of decade like Vegan hinted).
     
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  3. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Here Dr Friedebert Becker (from Kicker), didn't include Didi or Kopa in his team A: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/1958-world-cup-best-ix-by-dr-friedebert-becker-1958.1346000/

    This needs to be reviewed with multiple sources (diverse ratings), but I'm sure Pelé's 58 WC is among the best performances ever (and every bit as good as Rossi).
    Influential in all matches he played with Goals or Assist.
     
  4. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I’m not convinced Maradona wins in 1979 but certainly he’s in the mix. He had the propaganda machine behind him and FIFA had invested in propagandizing their FIFA Youth World Cup which made the world take note of Maradona with his MVP award. Also the 1979 South American award and some other world sport recognition by a Swedish tabloid and obviously Guerin Sportivo. It’s evident that FIFA was looking to promote the game with what appeared as the heir to the throne that previous legends left vacated.

    The propaganda with Pelé arrived mostly after 1960, so I’m not convinced he would have obtained any nomination in 1958 as un unknown to the world. It’s however true he was viewed generally as the top player in the decade of the 1960s but it’s also true his reputation after 1966 had also declined with some tabloids writing leading up to WC70 as the “King is dead”, only to resuscitate after the tournament in Mexico. Inclusively, he was originally dropped from the NT only to be included once Mario Zagallo took over, after supplanting Saldana. El Gráfico also had been surprised how he turned it around since it was stated they had not seen him play that well for a long time. The reality is he had like 5 months to fully prepare for the World Cup, something that is seldom mentioned.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    O.K.
     
  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Pelé was never oficially dropped from the Brazilian NT and this was denied many years after by João Saldanha himself (well known for being an emocionallly unstable and arrogant guy). He threw bombs and just said things about Pelé, who was the star of Brazil, only after being threatened and then fired from his office. Pele played many matches with Saldanha including in 1970 (not his best year in fact I assume) and then was the best name/or the most famous in that WC.

    PD: Saldanha said repeatedly in 1969 that Pelé was part of his XI.
    1969 as part of the 60's was a great year for Pelé as well, who was voted as the best Brazilian player with Tostão (and in the XI of the season by Jornal dos Sports), Tostão yes was a doubt for the World Cup.
     
  7. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, that’s the Guerin Sportivo summary. In addition, Zico was voted footballer of the year by Don Balón in 1981. Probably his best chance of being awarded a global Balón d’Or in his career.
     
  9. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
  10. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    #35 Bavarian14, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
    1:13 1:29 1:56 2:35 3:27 6:01
    No offense just saying this because in modern days those errors will be highlighted as well (and he missed a 1v1 with keeper iirc). He was still raw & unpolished like Carlito said.

    Also that Sweden team had half of their players in their 30's and a 10 men France following an injury, back when substitutions were not allowed, no? It was like Mbappe's performance against Argentina in the World Cup with one of the defenders being sent off.
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Or Messi against Leverkusen?

    Or C.Ronaldo against Sweden (with peaches of assists like from Moutinho), after not qualifying and needing to go to the Play-Offs?

    I'm not saying this in an agitated way but feel it does need to be said. If things being easy in some way or another comes into it, modern players shouldn't be given free passes in that respect. In the majority of club games they play Messi and CR7 are on the best team, but still their cumulative goal tallies are often heralded without the context of the time they play in being properly considered.

    It's fair in some way to point out the things you do, but only if other players are not given free passes and heralded for legendary goalscoring displays subsequently I feel.

    I definitely don't want to reply again now to be honest. But although I could have just chosen to ignore you or rep you (but I'll leave you just with the rep I gave when you agreed more maybe lol!), I did feel I'd just say this.

    I felt Pele for 1969 seemed a good case when we were looking into that 1966-1970 period with Tom Stevens not long ago, but I don't want to get too much into that sort of conjecture either probably now. I'm not complaining to anyone - I was the one who decided to reply in the first place to Vegan - but I don't really want to get more involved now (to be fair you were just using my quote to make your point probably rather than trying to drag me back into it though).
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I sense( although I could be wrong) you're very irritant which is highly unlike you.
    Apparently I tend to rub people up the wrong way with my style but you are generally courteous( even with undesirables)

    Bringing it back
    I think 'king' Pele generally gets a free ride here
    The propaganda efforts of tropiero (and friends) guarantee it

    Still questions should be asked and this is the Forum to ask those questions

    Messi/Ronaldo aside as they aren't really relevant (not at all within this context)

    Rossi produced a hat trick to down a team that is commonly referenced as the 'greatest to never win a world cup'(does context matter anymore?)
    Pele scored a hat trick vs 10 man France (with as bavarian said) an average age of 30+
    Is this comparable (objectively)?

    Pele scored a winner vs Wales (without their 40 year old talisman John Charles)
    Rossi vs Poland without boniek

    The 1958 WC was open season with
    3.6 goals scored per match
    That is to say that Pele the second highest scorer of the 58 WC scored less than half as the first

    The 82 edition was more defensive and Rossi was literally ( for the most part) Italys only goalscoring outlet

    4 of peles 6 WC goals in 58 literally came against depleted sides
    Just how is this transcendental stuff

    Great for a teenager (probably as great or slightly greater than mbappe 18 or r9 98)
    But not era defining at all (even if his sombrero vs Sweden was iconic it is still only one action)
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok one more (last) reply - I really want to make it the last one now as I keep saying.

    Sorry for being irritated.

    Brazil had drawn with England 0-0 before Pele (and Garrincha) came into the team vs the USSR (a team matched or slightly better than England it seems that year). Brazil had in 1956 lost to England at Wembley too, and before Pele they were never able to quite become the top team in the world. Didi had played in 1954 of course too, but he did play very well in 1958 it's true.

    The relevance I felt is that performances like vs Leverkusen and Sweden were glorified beyond the quality shown by the player (how easy it was was not really considered I feel), and went some way to making cases for Ballon d'Or wins. And I'm sure that if either of those players scored the goal Pele did in the Final, and also his header goal, then we'd not hear the end of it - "GOAT, GOAT, GOAT" all over Twitter etc I'm sure. Ronaldo even gets credit for coaching from the sidelines (or shoving players back on the pitch?) in the Euro 2016 Final, in which he didn't play any part. And his overall contribution in that tournament was per game far below Pele in 1958 (who made a decisive contribution in every single game he played in).

    Anyway, apologies again.
     
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  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The peach of assists by moutinho would become wayward passes if Ronaldo hadn't made them off the ball runs constantly for 90+ minutes
    There is no assist or even genuis pass if the player its intended for doesn't time his run to perfection

    There is a issue of finishing under pressure (how many players miss)

    The analogy isn't a great one if I'm being honest
    You could say Sweden were tactically naive playing with such a high line (they had no choice tbh as they were 1-0 down from the first leg thanks to a late diving header by Ronaldo)

    They had to take risks and CR capitalised (ibrahimovic begrudgingly said after the match to reporters
    What did you expect Ronaldo is the best in the world from counter attacking situations)

    No one is denying Pele credit and yes his sombrero goal was iconic and twitter would indeed go into overdrive if either one of Messi or Ronaldo even attempted this in a world cup final


    Still I'm not in the business of hyping a performance on the basis of one outrageous assist or goal (I won't do it for Ronaldinho so why Pele)

    Wasn't swedish fans banned from making noise in the stadium (I could have my facts wrong )

    The rest of his performance vs a depleted Wales (with literally no recognised stars beyond an absentee 40 year old)
    And a 10 man France isn't worthy of being considered legendary stuff (a word used loosely when it should be used aptly and sparingly)

    R9 is penalised (by some) for his 97 copa America performance and destroying teams who weren't fielding their best players (incomplete teams)
    This doesn't detract from the fact he was individually great
    Just that he was great within a specific context
    (Playing for a stacked brazilian side who literally overwhelmed less talented sides who didn't/or couldn't even field there best players)

    The same applies to Pele
    We can give him credit for scoring 6 goals in a world cup including 2 in a final at 17 years old
    There is also a context that goes along with those achievements that really shouldn't be ignored


    Edit
    I Wasn't offended at all @PDG1978 and you are within your right to blow some steam once in a while :whistling:
     
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  15. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Free ride for what? Scoring 6 Goals in the the last three matches one of WC?

    You can talk about the era, the level of opponents, that he wasn't polished, the hell you want, but at the end of the day he scored 6 goals in the 3 final World Cup games, that is quite significant for a world cup player...and nowadays he could have been the Golden Ball of the tournament quite easily with this record. Add this distinction to the Brazilian scene and may you have a good idea of what I am talking about.
     
  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Carlitos, could I ask you a question?
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You've just asked one without realising
     
  18. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018

    Since I have you permission.... Brother, why do you (and most Portuguese people on the Internet, even at Red Cafe) hate or badmouth Pelé sometimes even with absurd things? Just a question brother, no offense.
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Since you are attempting to be cordial I'll return the favour

    'Brother' I am not Portuguese nor a member on redcafe (I ghost read there but haven't signed up)
    I can't speak for Portuguese people or redcafe members so I'm not sure what to say further

    Do I badmouth Pele?
    It depends what you mean by that(does questioning his legacy constitute as a flagrant disrespect
    Is he like beyond reproach
    a 'holy man' maybe

    Is this a forum to exchange different viewpoints and perspectives or one where everyone has to sing from the same boring hymn sheet

    Why do you personally hate Portuguese people?
    You can deny it of course but you can't lie to yourself
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    According to Gazzetta dello Sport, managers/ex players chose the top 10 best players in the world in February 1988. The result was this:

    F0A33772-5517-4D55-8EF3-8F59E54CAA68.jpeg
    DF77909D-1F18-4785-8743-97A0C1AD0C54.jpeg

    It’s highly likely Maradona would have taken a top spot in 1987, with Gullit second.
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    But coaches don't vote that one, journalists do. Journalists from Europe and later South America.

    The same coaches voted Van Basten as number one in 1988 and 1989 in the direct precursor to the World Player of the Year vote. That thing is voted by coaches (later also the captains).

    https://iffhs.de/history-iffhs-awards-marco-van-basten-1988-and-1989/

    https://iffhs.de/history-iffhs-awards-1988/

    It is most comparable to that vote.
     
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  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Excellent info. It does give credence to the theory that Maradona, Van Basten and Gullit would have appeared in the mix during that 1987-89 timeframe.

    Edit: 1988 has the top 3 ranked but what were the top 3 of 1989 ? Any idea ? It doesn’t specify.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Do you have this Gazzetta edition too?



    This is before the Milan vs Napoli 4-1 game. Where Gullit receives 8-9 by the press and Maradona 5-5.5 by the ones you showed.

    However, this was played after the voter deadline for 1987 BdO... But before the deadline for the world player vote.
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here:
    https://iffhs.de/history-iffhs-awards-1989/
     
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  25. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I think that’s at the end of the year and I should have it but don’t remember any world poll that included non-Europeans. The IFFHS commenced in 1988 the world player, according to the link you provided.
     

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