What if the Ballon d'Or was awarded to all players from any origin & club?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bavarian14, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    Who would've been the top 3 contenders from 1956-1994?
     
  2. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    In other words, according to the source above, most likely scenario of the 1979-1986 years could pan out like this (in no particular order):

    1979 Maradona, Keegan
    1980 Maradona, Rummenigge
    1981 Zico, Rummenigge, Maradona
    1982 Rossi
    1983 Falcao, Platini, Zico, Rummenigge
    1984 Platini, Rush, Rummenigge
    1985 Platini, Maradona
    1986 Maradona

    1982 and 1986 is not clear who would be in the mix.
     
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  3. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Maradona won nothing relevant in 1979-1981 nor the Argentina League or Libertadores or Copa América, neither in 1984-1985 too.
     
  4. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    In 1978 Kevin Keegan won the Ballon d'Or despite England having failed to qualify for the World Cup and Hamburg not only failed to reach the UEFA quarterfinals but also finished mid-table in the Bundesliga.
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Late 1978 was a factor in that one I think though too. Not criticising you in any way, but people forget that the Ballon d'Or was always regarded as a Calendar Year vote, maybe because it is seen that way much less nowadays I think.

    @Gregoriak has talked about the Keegan situation before I believe. But you are right to suggest trophies weren't the be all and end all too I think probably.
     
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  6. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    Actually Zico won much more things than Maradona in Argentina with Flamengo.

    1979 - Carioca State League 1979, 1979 (extra), one of the best performances ever in the Campeonato Carioca.
    1980 - Brazilian League 1980 (top scorer).
    1981 - Libertadores (top scorer, MVP), Intercontinental (MVP), Carioca League
    1982 - Brazilian League 1982 (top scorer, MVP)
    1983 - Brazilian League 1983.

    Plus in the 1983 phase of the Serie A, he was one of the top scorer of the tournament and Udinese was overperforming their previously level a lot according Club Elo (2.97 Points)

    [​IMG]

    He was elect the Best Player of the Year in 1983 by World Soccer btw, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Soccer_(magazine)#World_Player_of_the_Year

    Also he scored 27 Goals in 34 Matches for Brazilian NT being the top scorer of the 1982 World Cup qualifiers.

    His numbers 1979-1982:
    Brazilian League, Brazil NT Matches, Libertadores and Intercontinental 1979-1982
    110 Matches, 94 Goals (77 Non-PK Goals) + 32 Assists
    His Team Goals (Brazil and Flamengo) = 244

    Including the State League in 4 years (1979, 1980, 1981, 1982), 231 Matches, 219 Goals

    I don't know how he compares to Europeans, but he was the most successful South American player in the 1979-83 period ... and with numbers and level to afford it.
     
  7. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Keegan his competition in 1978 was from Austria and 'Holland'. Of course those get shafted (for a quarter century).
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Keegan did play in a widely recognized top league (whether that is fair or not). Unlike free role Maradona in 1979 or Zico in other years he also scored and assisted goals against some absolute top sides. Not saying he was at any point a great player but this helps... Depends on the voter pool too... If it is for 80-90% made up by Italians, Spaniards and South Americans, then no, Keegan doesn't win.
     
  10. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #11 Tropeiro, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
    Too bad there is no Elo database to South American teams to really check the level of each league or of the top teams. But honestly was the Italian, German, Spanish or English league really stronger than the Brazilian or even Argentinian league in the 70's or 80's? If today, for example, even with 1300 Brazilians playing abroad and with all the boom of foreigners and non ethnic/nationalized europeans, the Football Manager database often puts the Brazilian League on the same level as the French league, which is also widely recognized a TOP5 league; We have to think about it.

    https://football-observatory.com/IMG/pdf/mr12_eng.pdf
    https://economia.uniandes.edu.co/fi...ad/Artículos/Frick_2009_Bosman_Ruling_JSE.pdf

     
  11. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    It’s difficult to really gauge the years before 1979 without any credible sources, but Kempes most likely would have been a contender in 1978. The 1987-1990 years Maradona certainly would have been in the mix, widely accepted as the best player in the game and competing in probably the top league around Europe (certainly the most difficult). 1990 probably ends in the same way that “World Soccer” readers voted, with Matthäus, Schillachi and Maradona in the top 3.

    The retrospective views that sustain that Pelé would have ran away easily with awards in the 1960s is a specious one. The reality is it’s hard to believe Europeans would have given much importance on what was transpiring in South America. Was he generally accepted as the premier player in the game in the first half of the decade ? Yes, but it’s uncertain how that would have translated into podium finishes against European contenders. Take away 1961, 1962, 1963 and the rest of the years become less clear. The 1970 WC resuscitated his career on the international stage and probably would have obtained serious consideration amongst podium contenders.

    Realistically, I only see him staking claim in those years mentioned, the rest he was either too young (1958-59) and still an unfinished product or after 1963 where he’s not made any important international impact until the arrival of World Cup 1970.

    For the 1970s decade, taking away 1970, 1978 and 1979, I don’t think much would have changed. I’m not convinced the South Americans would have made any inclusion.

    The years of 1991-1994, it’s highly likely some Brazilians make headway into a podium finish, Romario certainly in 1994.
     
  12. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #13 Tropeiro, Aug 30, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2019
    Libertadores was an somewhat discredited competition in the eyes of most Brazilian teams in the 1960s, often with Brazilian teams refusing to play or playing reserve teams, but Pelé's his average of 1.13 Goals per match in the Libertadores, 17 Goals in 15 Matches is something from another world compared to most top Forwards in South America at that time like Spencer or Luis Artime (Artime was four times Argentinian League topscorer and 3 times Uruguayan League topscorer and scored 24 Goals in 25 Matches with Argentina).. all of them had a average of 0.39 to 0.66: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copa_Libertadores#Top_scorers

    But like I was saying, at the time the most important titles for Santos were the State Championship (where the São Paulo State league was the strongest in Brazil) and Taça Brasil/Roberto Gomes Pedrosa (considered nowadays as Brazilian League)... and Pelé's Santos won 8 São Paulo titles and 6 Brazilian titles in the 60's decade (Palmeiras won 3 titles, Cruzeiro 1)....this is the absolute record of a team dominance (10-years period) in both competitions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santos_FC#Honours


    Btw, being too young is not his fault when he was already the best Brazilian player at that time being extremely decisive in the final phases at the most important competition (the real World Cup, not the U20) and having phenomenal performances in the national scenary.... 58 and 44 Goals in the Campeonato Paulista are marks only reached by Pelé in this competition https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campeonato_Paulista_de_Futebol#Artilheiros.

    And yes Maradona was also top scorer of the Argentinian League (like Zico was in the Brazilian and Carioca Leagues) but his Goal mark wasn't that impressive like the marks of Hector Horacio Scotta, Kempes in some years, Carlos Alvares, Miguel Juan Juarez etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Argentine_Primera_División_top_scorers and like I said before Maradona won nothing important in his time in Argentina and would certainly be punished for it in a vote like the one that exists today.
     
  13. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    This is some guesswork but I think that the differences in the real Ballon d’Or would have not changed much.

    My superficial view is like this:

    1956-1960
    Probably remains the same except maybe Didi gets an inclusion for 1958.

    1960-1969
    Everything remains the same except Pelé probably makes his inclusions in 1961, 1962 and 1963 and Garrincha in 1962.

    1970
    Pelé most likely gets in and possibly some other Brazilian.

    1971-1977
    Basically it remains the same with no South Americans.

    1978
    Kempes contends

    As previously mentioned due to the sources at hand:

    1979 Maradona, Keegan, Rummenigge
    1980 Maradona, Rummenigge, Zico
    1981 Zico, Rummenigge, Maradona
    1982 Rossi
    1983 Falcao, Platini, Zico, Rummenigge
    1984 Platini, Rush, Rummenigge
    1985 Platini, Maradona
    1986 Maradona

    1982 and 1986 is not clear who would be in the mix.

    1987-1990
    As mentioned Maradona’s reputation was at its zenith and somewhere he’d be in the mix with Gullit and Van Basten.

    1990
    World Cup year with Matthäus, Schillachi and Maradona

    1991-1994
    Romario gets in 1994 and possibly in 1993

    That’s a quick review but I don’t think there would be much of a difference than that.
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I do respect your views mate, so I don't want to suggest you're wearing the Argentinian-tinted glasses, but given Rossi won it in 1982, might that not suggest it would very feasible for teenage sensation Pele to do it in 1958 with many many more goals over the calendar year, and with at least as good and significant a World Cup? Di Stefano was out of the running (if we assume the same format and rules but just imagine if South Americans had been eligible) and I know Kopa (the actual Ballon d'Or winner) and Didi were acclaimed by various sources as the Player of the World Cup overall (moreso Didi possibly, but Kopa according to at least one journalist vote IIRC), but still wouldn't Pele at least be in the mix?
     
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  15. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    It was Pele's highest scoring year with 75 goals for club and country if I'm not mistaken. Then again how much weightage his goalscoring records in Campeonato Paulista would have is uncertain. But in an era with heavy emphasis on international football I'm sure he'd make a finish among the Top 3
     
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  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    #17 Tropeiro, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    In some years Di Stefano perhaps.
    1958 Didi/Pelé
    1962 Garrincha/Pelé
    1963 Pelé
    1970 Pelé
    1978 Kempes
    1986 Maradona
    1994 Romário (1993?)

    In the other years Pelé (1958 till 1965 in fact, the memories of that 17-year-old who scored 6 goals in the KO phase of a WC would still be fresh in their memories, coupled with historical goalscoring records, intercontinentals performances and many titles to justify it), Maradona (1987 and 1990), Falcão (1983), Zico (1981, 1983), even the ones like Raí (1992) could be in the conversation.

    Another thing is if the South American particular scenery were considered in this award. What I believe this wouldn't be.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Rai wouldn't be anywhere near in 1992 (typical Tropeiro...).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_FIFA_World_Player_of_the_Year

    It was clearly between two Europeans. The European Cup winner (and scorer in Intercontinental Cup), and the player who was banned in Europe for his club but scored a record amount of goals in Serie A (since early 60s) and a had a solid/good european championship.
     
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Just so that I am being balanced (I don't disagree about Pele, but it is not to say Vegan is definitely wrong), it would seem Maradona in 1985, and 1979/80, would be somewhere close. 1988 too I'd think, but surely Van Basten would still take that one.
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #20 carlito86, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019
    Pele 58 was nowhere near as great as Rossi 82

    Don't forget the calibre of opponents Rossi scored against
    His KO performance was one for the ages

    Pele his most iconic performance was arguably vs Wales and he wasn't even considered the unanimous MOTM.
    (that would be garrincha)
    If that wasnt enough they played without their best player and talisman John Charles

    Mel Hopkins who was a defender on that day clearly highlighted garrincha as being the 'danger man' and Pele was just the finisher

    It would be like scoring a hat trick against Wales without Gareth Bale
    Or scoring a hat trick against northern Ireland without George Best....or Robbie Keane

    Pele 58 was great for a teenager perhaps the greatest ever for a player his age but he was still raw and unpolished

    Rossi 82 was a mature performance with clinical finishing vs the best international teams of his time

    Over the course of the calendar year it would seem Pele 58 was demonstrably superior to Rossi 82

    I just think prime Alfredo di Stefano was too strong a candidate for pele and greater than any player in the world at that time

    From what I've read Di Stefano stood alone and Pele was only taken seriously as a best player in the world candidate in 1960 (aged 20 years old)
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm pretty sure it wasn't mate.

    Can you imagine what would be said if Cristiano Ronaldo or Messi did this (or even if Paolo Rossi had done it)?:

    Or even created a chance like this in a semi-final (it would be being replayed a million times on Twitter) - 4:00


    Because please don't say that CR7 and Messi are consistently brilliant all game when they get acclaimed for certain goal and moments. If we deny Pele for these moments then we should deny them for most of their's shouldn't we?

    Sorry if I'm not being as diplomatic as always in style, but I'm kind of following your lead. No desire to fall out with you though mate definitely. I'll probably make this the last word now - I keep disagreeing with people enough on this thread for some reason and the last thing I want to do is get embroiled in arguments - I'm really not sure why I replied earlier to be honest, but I'm definitely not going to on this thread again now.
     
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  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Sorry Carlito, I see now you got less argumentative and more reasonable towards the end of your post lol!

    I was a bit hasty in replying in the style I did then I guess indeed. But Di Stefano didn't win the Ballon d'Or in 1958 (Raymond Kopa did - I believe voters were discouraged from voting for the previous winner in that day and age, but some feel Kopa would have won anyway I think...against Di Stefano...rather than Didi or Pele....but I'm not sure we know much about official opinion of the time).

    Ok, I did reply again now lol, but only as an extension of my other reply, and to apologise for not realising Carlito's post wasn't as direct as it first seemed.
     
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  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    It’s not impossible, but I just don’t see it realistically happening. He didn’t have the reputation yet. It wasn’t even in the same sphere as Mbappe was at 2018. Different times of course. By then Didi was obviously a an established name in the world sport and had already solidified a reputation of appearing in a previous World Cup, so his chances of being nominated would have been a reasonable one. Furthermore, WC58 had not reached the global importance that would ensue years later. By the time the 1982 World Cup came around it was at the pinnacle in every sense as the premier global sporting event in football. Rossi, not only was already an established figure in the game, but every possible award available was swept by him. In addition, Italy primarily relied on his goals in KO rounds to achieve glory, whereas Brazil in 1958 had Vava and Pelé up front and Didi orchestrating from deep and Garrincha on the flank. So the wealth was spread around. It was also a more open World Cup which produced a high proportion of goals. In terms of Brazilian domestic relevance, I highly doubt that would have been a decisive factor for Europeans (South American football was virtually under the radar) and virtually would have been inconsequential in a final review.

    Nowadays, with internet and all we get caught in the guessing game utilizing logic of reasoning with our current modern views while overlooking the context of how things were viewed differently back then.
     
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  23. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Or scoring a brace against Poland without Boniek?

    Or scoring a hat trick against Brazil with Serginho?
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Pele doesn't get 1958 for sure, and Maradona gets 1979 based on a youth world cup and some shimmies (but no goals) against Italy and Holland?

    I agree it was not until 1961 that Pele was widely seen as the best in the world.
     

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