1958: Pele was injuried and missed the first two games. What if Feola decided to keep the same lineup, Pele was not used regularly. Note: no sub was allowed in 1958. Pele could have missed the entire Finals. Feola in real life did alternate the starting attackers, but Pele was the fixture. 1962 & 1966: We knew Pele missed most of the tournament. 1970: Four months before the WC Finals, Saldanha contemplated dropping Pele. Of course, the Brazilian FA would never allow that in real life situation. but what if Saldanha had his way and Pele was dropped. Pele could have missed all the WC Finals. What would happen to his career? Where would Pele be in the history of the game? Would he end up in Europe if he never shined in 1958? My two cents If he remained in Santos, people outside of Brazil probably would never heard of him. Unliked Di Stefano, Pele would not get the European club trophies to back up his claims. I do believe the history of football is eurocentric. Pele would have a hard time cracking the top 10. Garrincha would get more credit with Brazil's unbeaten run with Pele-Garrincha combination. However, if Pele missed the 1958 WC Finals, he would never became the national hero in 1958 and Brazil would unlikely to declare him an official national treasure in 1961, He probably would be allowed to play in Europe. It is possible that he might join a Brazilian club. Well, I am still debating whether Pele's domestic successes would have kept him in Brazil.
EG, you love coming up with these "what-if" threads. While some ponder the universe and its mysteries, you come up with this and stuff like WC winners vs CL winners on the same year I wondered if you have too much time on your hands, then realized that I also tend to give a response.....so don't know what it says about me. Enough with the preamble, here we go with some thoughts: I agree, the history of football worldwide is Eurocentric. A massive club career under the circumstances you present would indeed have been marginalized worldwide. I don’t believe it would be the case in S.America…...you'd find it hard to convince any informed SA pundit for example that the Argentine Moreno wasn't a top 10 player all-time. His memory would definitely have suffered outside of Brasil, but during his playing days Europeans would certainly have heard of Pele. His success at the Brasilian and S.American club level would have made Santos sought after for European matchups. From the mid-50s on Brasilian clubs (the bigger and more successful ones) regularly played European squads in tournaments and matchups around the world. For example: Before any of their players were WC winners, Botafogo in 1955 and 1956 played 40 games against European teams in Europe. In fact in 1956 they spent an absurd 3 consecutive months in Europe (from end of March to end of June) playing 22 games in all against the likes of Fulham United, Racing Paris, Honved and Barcelona [see, contrary to popular belief, European scouts had already seen Garrincha by the time they were supposedly “surprised” in Sweden in 1958]. It’s from these games that the majority of the few players who did leave Brazil were often scouted. In fact during that 1955 tour Botafogo sold two players (Vinicius to Napoli, and Dino to Juventus). Other teams did as well, such as the sale of Evaristo de Macedo from Flamengo to Barcelona. [In the same way DiStefano was purchased after impressing the Spaniards on a Millionarios (Colombia) tour in Spain. What if those tours never happen?] Additionally there did exist European scouting of talent which followed local championships and the Selecao in S.America competition, and got players from teams with limited international projection, eg. Canario - America RJ to Real Madrid. Like Evaristo, Canario never played a WC for the Selecao. Take the center forward Mazzola of Palmeiras. His 1958 WC was the direct opposite of Pele’s; Mazzola played the first two games of WC 1958, then lost his starting spot and rode the bench the rest of the tournament. Yet, he was the one who moved to an Italian club after that WC. Its not as if AC Milan settled for Mazzola because they couldn’t pry away Didi, Vava, Garrincha or Pele; Mazzola was being wooed by Italian clubs prior to making his appearance at WC 1958 due to Palmeiras’ successful tour of Italy earlier in the year and his goal scoring prowess in the Pauslitao. [Interestingly, in the two years they went head to head in the Paulistao, Pele outscored Mazzola by a considerable margin (made even more acute by the fact that Mazzola was a CF). And, Santos won both championships. That’s indication to me that Pele would have attracted serious European interest without a WC appearance.] Finally, Pele’s performance against Benfica in the 1962 WCC/Intercontinental alone would have made Europeans stand up and take note had they no clue as to who he was. Assuming that no national treasure status existed, what would have happened to an eventual European offer? Remember that for most of his career he was Santos’ property, so the club would have ultimate say as to whether he went Europe. You have to remember that being designated a national treasure was just one part of the equation; the other was that Santos was making a bucket of money charging exorbitant fees to European competitors because of their status with Pele on the team. The money men obviously ran the numbers and figured that their long term revenue stream with him on the team outweighed even the large purchase offers from the likes of Real and Juve. Question is, without his WC appearances, would Santos’ overseas revenue stream have been significantly affected? I don’t know. Assuming for a second that Pele could force a sale even against Santos’ wishes (a la Robinho in today’s context), would he be motivated to move to Europe? Who can tell. Having read my share of biographies and autobiographies of Brasilian players through the years, I’ve never once read any ‘50-‘80s great clamoring to play in Europe. They made good livings, and had no inferiority complex about playing domestically. Remember, they played European teams frequently enough to judge. Moving to Europe was not the goal that it is today. Didi however did fancy a move to Europe. He was sought after since the 1958 WC and he wanted to play there so that his daughters could be educated in Switzerland and become multilingual. When Real finally put in front an offer that Botafogo could accept ($80k USD), he jumped at the chance. A decidedly non-footballing factor. Garrincha had no such dream, so going to Europe was not anything extraordinary for him. It is said he was more concerned about beating his weekend neighborhood rivals named Real Madrid of Pau Grande (weekend sandlot games), than for playing for Real Madrid. Either way, Botafogo had a chance to sell him at the same time they sold Didi and refused (the offer for Garrincha was $250k). We really don't know if Pele would have been of the Didi mindset. A final leap. Let’s say for purposes of your analysis that he ended up in Europe. Based on my understanding of his career, his biggest suitors – the ones rich enough to pay a price to pry him away from Santos – were Real Madrid, Juventus and Internacional…with AC Milan running fourth (things haven’t changed that much when it comes to purchasing power). Thus, he would have gone to a strong team. If he ends up at Real do they continue their EC championship run into the early part of the decade? As DiStefano and Puskas begin to show their age, a young Pele ensures a winning transition? Are there additional EC wins there? Certainly there are La Liga titles to be won. You can play the same “what-ifs” with the Italian teams as well. Pele with Riveira at Milan. Pele with Fachetti and Sandro Mazzola at Inter. Does Inter win 4 ECs in the decade instead of 2 and 1 runner-up? Obviously things we will never know. In a “It’s a Wonderful Life” view of the world, what happens if Pele doesn’t play WC 1970 and the Selecao doesn’t win? Most likely Tostao, Gerson and Jairzinho are not remembered as great players outside of Europe. [I consulted a couple of books for this post, and should reference them to credit the authors: 1. Estrela Solitaria, by Ruy Castro (the most complete Garrincha biography) 2. Didi, by Roberto Porto]
Though not directly related to your thread title, I thought I'd list those Botafogo 56,57 European games I referred to in the post (for any history buffs). When looking at scores, the first number is Botafogo's -thus 2-1 would be a Botafogo victory. 1955 (5/15-7/16) Real Madrid 2-2 Atl. De Madrid 3-3 Santa Cruz (spn)4-1 Tenerife 1-2 Valencia 3-3 Racing de Paris (fra) 2-4 Murcia (spn) 2-2 Reims (fra) 5-1 Racing de Leinz (fra) 3-2 Alliancen (den) 5-5 Holland NT 6-1 Grasshoppers Zurich 6-2 Comb. Torino/Juventus 4-0 Roma 3-2 Dinamo Prague 1-0 Slovan (Czech) 2-0 Spartak (Czech) 1-0 BAnik Ostrawa 1-1 1956 (4/1-6/23) UDA (Czech) 0-1 Norkopping (swe) 2-0 Fulham 2-2 Burnley (eng) 2-1 Brentford (eng) 3-2 Honved (hun) 2-6 Espnahol 2-2 Valencia 0-1 Oviedo 1-0 Celta 3-0 Cordoba 4-3 Rott Weiss (Ger) 4-3 Racing de Paris 3-0 Le Havre 2-0 Nuremberg 3-0 Troyes (fra) 5-1 Stade de Reims 1-1 St. Etienne 2-3 Racing de Leinz 2-0 Sedan (fra) 4-0 Barcelona 2-0 [The Barcelona game ended in a general on-pitch brawl with all 22 men from each team on the pitch. The entire Botafogo team spent the night in jail for “disorderly conduct.”]
I wonder who arranged the schedule - obviously playing Brentford ranks a long way from the perfect warm up for playing Honved.
It is better to look at these threads that at dror_khayat's obnoxious polls. On the other hand, I like the stats that you've compiled, tpmazembe. He definitely wouldn't be rated as the greatest player ever. Fans and journalists would remember the Santos tours and Intercontinenetal Cup matches. If Maradona still managed to have the career he had, Diego would have been king to the throne. Pele, on the other hand, would be classified in the Di Stefano and Best type of players. I don't think so. He seemed so loyal to Santos.
He would have been a greater phenomenon. If you have seen Maradona's second goal against the English in 1986, which I doubt you have, they way he would skipped past opponents would have looked freakier than freaky.
dor02, I hope my preamble to EG wasn't taken seriously; it was actually a compliment in a round-about way. Want to make that clear to everyone. I enjoy responding to them because it takes a bit of critical thinking. Yeah those polls you mention are too much; mostly because they are poorly thought out. Yet, they have an audience. Interesting question lanman, don't know. Do you have any sources to determine Brentford's status in English football at the time as a check versus Honveds (the base of the Hungary NT)? Its always trickly looking in the past and just going by team names. Stade de Reims wouldn't jump out to most people today for example. Did you know that Honved's last tour before dismantling occured in Brasil?
Brentford were in Division 3 South in 55/56. They finished 6th, which would translate to 11th or 12th in League 1 under the current system - they would be pretty much the same level as they are now. Of the other English teams they played, Burnley came 7th in Division 1 and Fulham 9th in Division 2. I did, but not the specifiec details. The break up of Honved leaves us with another great "What If?" - How would the 1958 World Cup have looked were it not for the defection of Puskas, Kocsis and Czibor? And again if the Munich Air Disaster had not taken place - England lost three world class players and certain starters.
Thanks for that lanman. That "what if" you suggest would go beyond a look at Honved's potential in EC competitions; it would also extend to the fortunes of the teams that most benefited from the Hungarian exodus (Real and Barcelona). To be clear, these are not the same player. The first is commonly known in Europe by his birth name of José Altafini. Apologies for any confusion.
I did not take it the negative way. I started the thread because of José Altafini/Mazzola. tp almost read my mind. Altafini/Mazzola was only 19 years old in 1958. Pele took his place when he returned from his injury. Altafini/Mazzola played liked one more game after Pele's return in 1958 when Brazil decided to play him instead of Vava. He went to Europe after 1958 and he did not disappeared. In fact, his Serie A record was not so bad. He is now the 3rd all-time scorer in Serie A history. In fact, Atafini/Mazzola became an Italian citizen and played for Italy in 1962. Of course, we all knew that Italy did not do very well in 1962 and Altafini did not become a WC hero. Gradually, history forgot about him. His two names probably added to the confusion. Some people might confused him with the two Mazzolas as well. So I actually asked myself what if Altafini/Mazzola played instead of Pele. Would Altafini/Mazzola end up to be one of Brazil's greatest striker(of course, I knew he is no Pele)? And where would Pele be if he did not have WC record to support his claim? Does he need Europe? I actually started another similair "what if" thread not so long ago. It was what if Di Stefano and Sivori played for Argentina in 1958. I did not know at the time Italy also stole 3 other top players from Argentina. I always found the WC 1958 very interesting. Hungary and England as you mentioned lost their top players. I did not know much of Uruguay in 1958, but Juan Schiaffino was playing for Italy and Italy failed to qualify for the WC Finals.
One question I have about the football loving world is how Pele would be viewed apon now if Brazil never won a World Cup in 58/62/70. Or the view of Zidane if France lost to Croatia in the 98 SF. Or if the 'one last shot' didn't slip through from WILLLTOORD!!! in 2000.
Zidane got the trademark dribbling and the great vision. He probably becomes the greatest showboat in the game. People will say he is no substance. He also lost two CL Finals with Juventus in the period where Juventus should have became one of the greatest teams ever, but failed. . Of course, Real Madrid has not been doing well lately. Basically, he played for two super teams, but both failed to live up to expectations. That would reinforce the idea that Zidane could not win. I was also thinking of Romario. He missed two WC Finals through injuries. He was almost left out in his only WC Finals. He was called up late in the WCQ after a long disagreement with Parreria. Parreria could have dropped him.
That's alright. I misunderstood. I don't understand why people are still voting on those polls. They're all carbon copies of each other and if somebody posts something, it is mostly a complaint about dror_khayat's obsessiveness. Once I posted a poll like that but with Copa Libertadores winners just to make things a bit different. I'm just curious, would it be a fair statement to say that Altafini's most famous achievement was when he scored 14 goals in the 1962-63 European Cup tornament when AC Milan won against Benfica? Italy also had an Argentinian called Grillo, who was a teammate of Schiaffino at AC Milan. He played at Italia 90. When Brazil played Scotland, Romario played for 65 minutes and he was substituted by matchwinner, Muller.
I may be wrong, but I believe it was the other way around - Madrid and Barcelona representatives were both in Colombia to scout him, not in Spain.
Di Stefano first impressed with Millonarios in Real Madrid's 50th anniversary game, in 1952, one year before he was signed.
Right, but I believe he was seriously considered after both Real and Barca went to scout him in Colombia. As I said, I could be wrong.
Yes, I was aware of Romario in 1990. He had not played for 7 or 8 months before the match. He was not impressive.
I think you're right. At least in regards to Barca scouting him there. Though I'm not completely sure, I thought I read that in a book about Barca just a month ago.
DiStefano was Signed by Real & Barca! he was supposed to split 4 seasons between the two clubs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Di_St%C3%A9fano
> Pele could have missed all the WC Finals. > Where would Pele be in the history of the game? (I'm very late, but the question is intriguing...) To give my opinion, I begin with the following ranking for the years 1958-94: 1. Pele (8 points) 2. Gerd Mueller, Zoff (7) 4. Maradona, Matthaeus (6) 6. Romario (5) 7. Djalma Santos, Robert Charlton, Krol, Passarella, Rummenigge, Platini, Paolo Maldini (4) 14. Beckenbauer (3) Well, Pele is the greatest. But the fact is: this ranking was automatically calculated. How? I gave 4 points to every team winning the World Cup, 2 points to every WC finalist and 1 point to every WC semifinalist. For European Championship, I gave 2 points to the first and 1 point to the second (only half of the great world teams are European). For Copa America, 1 point to the winner (Copa America is played, in theory, twice more frequently than European Championship). Then, for every team, among the players that played at least half of the matches of the final tournament, I took the one with more caps+goals in his international career (this sum is used in the game Fantasy Scout: https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=11526662#post11526662 ). So what? Players that we consider great are often players who played well in World Cups. So, I think that the doubt "if Pele didn't play at WC finals, he wouldn't be considered the greatest, and maybe neither so great" is founded!