What do atheists believe?

What's the other side of the dialectic from "do good stuff = get reward"?

"believe in Jesus' resurrection = get reward"?

 

This makes little sense. I presume you feel similarly about Catholicism as you do about Islam? They have very similar paths to salvation (which I presume is what you are referring to when you say "do good stuff = get reward").

 

I can't see what difference that makes. Why should Mohammed's words be disregarded just because he is dead?

I don't see any difference at all. Believers regard it as special, just like believers of all other religions do about theirs.

 

The essence of Christianity is that you can't do anything to earn reward. It is given freely through grace. This is hugely different from Islam, and any Muslim will tell you that.

The power of Christ and the Holy Spirit in our lives then transforms us so that we want to do good, but not for reward.

Here is the thing about Christianity. It isn't really about reward, or escape, as most religions are. It is about getting a new job. Transferring from one team to the other, and getting to play in the game that will decide the fate of humanity and the earth forever. Sure, in some sense that is reward, but it is vastly different from other religions.

Collapsing all religions into that dialectic of do good=reward is terribly reductionist.

 

No I don't. And traditional Catholicism (and especially this Pope) hold the same view. You don't earn salvation through works. They are a sign of you salvation, and they are apart of sanctification.

Populist Catholicism and for that matter Protestantism and Evangelicalism also basically hold a works salvation, but that is not what the Bible teaches, nor is it what is written in the Cathecism.

I work with a lot of Catholics in the theological world, and many of them hold the same perspective on this as I do.

 

Of course you don't. Which is fine. But, just because there are competing religious world views doesn't mean that they are all wrong. There is truth. Something is true.

I on the other hand and millions of others, see it as very special and as truth. You choose to assume we are all idiotic half breeds all chasing after meaning motivated by fear and dreams of reward. My point was to show you that actually that is not the case and there are very good and logical reasons for believing,

 

They all are "do as we say and get rewarded", although Christian guilt often seems to make it "do as we say, or get punished".

It doesn't, but it does highlight that despite the cast-iron certainty of their beliefs, the vast majority of people have got it wrong.

as does the follower of every religion.

Doesn't it strike you as something of a remarkable fluke that people invariably decide to follow the dominant religion in their culture? Even the ones who get into religion later in life have an amazing tendency to evaluate their culture's dominant religion as being the one that seems most plausible.

...but not for chosing one religion over an other. You think christianity is special for the reasons you gave. I'm certain people of other faiths could give an equally convincing reason as to why their religion is special, and also the logical choice.

 

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that the majority of Christians believe that there are no rules whatsoever? That you can do evil or good, you can believe in Jesus or Muhammad, you can eat babies or feed the poor and it has no effect on your afterlife whatsoever?

Because if that's not what you're saying, then Richard summed it up correctly.

That's a wild assumption without any evidence on your side.

This is definitely true.

It matters when the objective is to hold as many true beliefs as possible and as few false beliefs as possible.

Of course that's nothing a religious person would think about because they obviously don't care whether or not their beliefs are true.

Because this is the only shot we get at this thing called life...so we better make the best of it.

So I can't say that 4+4 doesn't equal 10 because I don't believe in any god? Doesn't really make sense, does it?

Well, then you better look at Islam. It started out just as small, it grew faster, it wiped out paganism and Zoroastrianism, it became the main religion in the Arabic world and in Persia. That is interesting. And to this day, it's the fastest growing Religion out there. It won't take too long for Islam to overtake Christianity as the world's biggest religion.

I had a discussion once with an orthodox Jew. It was very interesting and he also made the case that Judaism is special compared to any other religion. I don't wanna go into the details as it was a very lengthy discussion and I couldn't possibly do it any justice here, but he had a better case than any Christian I've ever heard.

You're entitled to believe that the resurrection is a historical fact, but historians will beg to differ.
There are exactly zero sources outside the Bible and the Apocrypha. And the religious texts are obviously somewhat biased.
If you accept this kind of "evidence" than you also have to accept others, and then there is nothing unique about Christianity there. There are countless resurrected humans or gods in almost all religions.

Obviously nobody can take that away. But you should try to take an objective look at those and also read a little on the workings of the human brain.

Great for you, but a complete non-sequitur.

 

A muslim would say the same thing...

and maybe it's officially not primarily about the reward, but it is a major factor and 90% of Christians out there will say that it's the most important one.

I believe that I know more about religion than most religious people. I'm very interested in this phenomenon.
I've read a lot of stuff about Christianity, some stuff about Islam and Hinduism is next on my list...

Depends on what exactly you're talking about. If you just talk about: "Is there a god yeah or nay" then you're right.
If you're talking about the particulars then you're not.

What are you asking about exactly? Why I want to hold as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible?
Because I don't want to live my only life under false pretenses.

Please don't read things into my statement that are not there. I don't think that every religious person is a moron. I'm well aware of the fact that there are many very intelligent Christians, Muslims and so on.

What I said is that these people, no matter how intelligent, have at least one area in their life where they don't care whether or not their beliefs are true.

That's a very personal thing to decide. That's the point.

That's something no believer has ever done...
but if you want that, take a look at the last 300 years of philosophy. Providing a basis for morality is a very big portion of that and it has done a much better job than any religion/theologian ever did.

The funny thing is that even the most fundamental Christian is a moral relativist. Otherwise you'd have to stone people who eat shellfish and you'd have to sell your raped daughter to the rapist.

Morals change, they always have and they always will. They are relative and it's not as easy as to postulate absolute morals.

Funny, the pagan Romans would probably have said exactly the same thing about Christianity a couple of centuries ago.

And the Muslims will of course disagree with you there...

I said that he made a good case for the uniqueness of Judaism, not for its truth value. And even if he did, it wouldn't help Christianity a bit, as Christianity adds a lot of fairy tales on top of the Jewish fairy tales.

1) It's a bold assumption that the texts were compiled using eye witness testimony. In fact there is not a shred of evidence for it.

2) Even if there were evidence, it wouldn't mean anything. There are countless eye witnesses today testifying the miracles of their Hindu Gurus. There are alien abductees, there are people who swear that they have seen Big Foot, etc.
It doesn't mean squat.

I'm not saying that at all. All I'm saying is that you should look at neurological sciences and how your brain functions. It explains a lot.

Christianity can explain the world? I never heard of that before...in fact, it does a horrible job at explaining the world. Even the ancient Greek gods were better at it.

If that would actually be the case and if that would be all there is, then I wouldn't see a problem either.

The problem starts when people extend the areas of their belief-system where they don't hold any standards and try to shove that down the throat of others.

 

Many pages ago a Christian started a thinly-veiled attack on atheists and here we are full circle with another Christian asking why the atheists have a problem with him.

I think we established early on that we don't. I don't agree with your religion but you're welcome to it. Leave me out of it and we're fine. But play the victim when we start winning a fight you started, and it just starts sounding pathetic. And that's why most of the more interesting posters in here stay the heck out of the conversation.

 

is that how you read it? a thinly-veiled attack on atheists?

 

What are talking about?!!?!!?

Is this not the "spirituality and religion" forum?

Who is playing the victim?

And if anyone is playing the victim its the several atheist posters on these boards who constantly complain about "having beliefs forced down their throat" but then turn around and tell us how its supposed to be and what truth really is!

Seriously, we are having a perfectly good and fair debate here, what exactly is the problem, I only mentioned that if you are going to critique Christianity you should get it right.

 

And what does that have to do with me?

 

You can choose not to read said thread, also. You can choose not to post.

The problem is not that people "don't agree" that is fine. The problem is that they make a case against it based on poorly formed arguments and understandings. That is the problem.

If I came on here and said all atheists eat babies and want to kill all Christians, you would rightly and justly contend that viewpoint.

I am not making myself a victim, just trying to point some inherent flaws in the arguments.

Of course you labeling me as pathetic and beneath you actually does nothing to assuage my concept of you and most atheists as elitist smug tongue cluckers.

 

... or picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week.

 

@Dig:
There are different interpretations of christianity obviously. On the dark side of protestantism in the NL for example, people believe they're doomed from the moment they're born as they can never follow in the footsteps of god. For catholics it's almost the opposite. You can be forgiven for whatever as long as you accept god in your life.

I think all faiths have a an extremist, dark movement. Even buddhists do apparently.

 

QFT

Agreed. And I am not sure why some can't get past this, yes there are some extreme folks, but that doesn't mean the essential core of a belief is to be discredited. It stands on its own. Christianity, atheism, Islam, whatever...

 

The bottom line of most, if not all religions is love really. Nothing wrong with that.

(and for those of you don't know: I'm saying that while I don't believe in god myself)

 

Even seen that Bhuddist monk battle royale a few years ago?

 

Ultimately, it's a personal decision. I decided for myself that I want to learn stuff. Maybe, if I'm lucky, that'll give me the ability to really change the way myself and others live their lives. It's called progress. I want to help us progress. We've come from cages only a couple of thousand years ago and today we live in big cities with all the food and comfort we need, with medical care and all kinds of technology.

What does it matter once I'm dead? Nothing to me anyway, but I believe that it enriches my life while I'm still living it and if my life actually ends up beneficial for all mankind, and be it in the tiniest of ways, then I have achieved actual meaning for my life which goes far beyond the kind of wishful thinking believers have.

Then tell me this: What are your standards for determining truth? What evidence is necessary for you to believe that X is true?

Well, I have never seen a believer explain why they hold their morals.
The only thing you'll hear is: "Because god wants it that way."

That's not a justification for you morals, that's just shifting the burden to someone who conveniently enough doesn't reveal himself and won't defend his morals and who apparently always shares the exact same morals the individual believer holds...

which is something that has actually been shown by neurology.
When you ask people about their moral judgement, a certain area of their brain lights up.
If you ask them what they believe other people's moral judgement would be, another area lights up.
If you ask them about what god thinks, the first area lights up again, that which is active when they think about their own morals...

So now you start cherry picking...what's the fundamental difference between cultural and moral law in the Bible? By which metric do you distinguish between the two? I mean other than you considering the one thing immoral (at least I hope you do), while the other thing is still moral.

Another question: If all the old jewish laws are no longer relevant, why did they end up in the Bible? Why did Jesus say that he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it?

The fact of the matter is that you can find pretty much everything in the Bible and every generation has interpreted the Bible according to their subjective morals, not the other way round.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (New International Version)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

I could construct moral dilemmas where I think each of these things would be moral today. But as a general moral rule, I can't see them becoming moral any time in the future, we're rather moving away from it (e.g. with the exception of the US, no western country still has the death penalty...btw. which is the most religious western country again?)

I'm more talking about other things: Gay rights for example. Or certain clothes. Or living together with someone without being married...

All these things were immoral not too long ago, but they aren't anymore. By the same token, things that are considered immoral today might be completely normal in the future...I'm thinking about genetic manipulations and designed babies for example.

Again, that's the exact same thing a Roman pagan might have said about Christianity. So what makes you so confident that Christianity will still be there 500 years from now? Force and a lack of freedom have proven to be quite successful when it comes to promoting a religion. Christianity has moved away from that, Islam hasn't.

For me it's the equivalent to a fairy tale and I simply can't make it sound any less insulting. It's not meant to be an insult, but if you think that believing in fairy tales is a sign of stupidity, then of course it's insulting. But reality can be like that.

Well, these guys are not exactly neutral, are they? Don't you think that there would be some non-Christian source for Zombies running through the streets of Jerusalem if something like that actually happened? Especially since this is an otherwise well documented era.

It depends on the kind of claim. If someone tells you that he has seen someone dying and then coming back to life, would you believe him? Or would you require additional proof?

1) I'd think that there are far more than 500 people who claim to have seen Bigfoot.
2) Where did you get that 500 number?
3) Even so, you're still talking about an ancient and rather biased source. If that's all the evidence you need, than history would be filled with miracles and wonders, attested by ancient books that claim that there were countless eye witnesses...

Aha, but that's not true. Christianity doesn't explain any of those things. It asserts them. There's a big difference.

I obviously didn't mean you directly.
What I mean is things like the Intelligent Design movement in the US, or limitations imposed on scientific research in Europe (like a ban on stem cell research).
These things are only based in religion and they curb our progress. Ultimately these kind of things will cause countless people to unnecessarily suffer and/or die.

 

A thread about what atheists believe has turned into a thread about what religious people believe.

Shocking, I know...