I know I'm treading on thin ice here....but I raised the point on another thread and the more I think about this, I'm starting to have my suspicions. I'm pointing specifically to Pope's 2nd yellow vs. Italy which effectively killed whatever hopes the US may have had or winning. And also the PK vs. Ghana yesterday. Both were HUGE calls that effectively decided the matches. There was no way barring a miracle from above we were going to win playing 9 vs. 10 against the Italians. And the PK call yesterday meant we were going to have to score twice in 45 minutes to advance -- again, highly unlikely. Those calls, plus the fact that we seemed to get every call after both incidents, leads me to really wonder about this. Either the refs knew they screwed up, or they didn't want any more circumstantial evidence pointing in that direction than was necessary. I'm not saying someone wanted us to lose, I'm suggesting they have wanted to make sure we didn't win. Why? Who knows. The point has been raised that FIFA wanted an African team in round 2 at all costs. Could that be a reason? If you wanted to fix a WC soccer match involving the US, I seriously doubt you could get to the players. The only way to do it is through the referees. I've watched an awful lot of sports over the years, including in person, a couple of college basketball games that WERE in fact fixed (BC point shaving scandal back in the 70's). I don't think this occurs at all in American professional sports as the players make far too much money and the combination of our press plus the extent of corporate sponsorship plus the legal professional gambling industry in Vegas combine to be pretty effective watchdogs that everything is on the up and up. Soccer, as has been proven again and again, in Italy and elsewhere, is not subject to the same scrutiny. I'm not, btw, saying that I think the Italy and Ghana matches were fixed. They better not have been for the sake of the sport and it's future in this country. But those two matches looked pretty suspicous to me...... I didn't tape the matches, but it would be interesting to re-watch both with that that idea in mind and see if you think it holds water. Mods, I hope you don't close this thread because I think the idea legitimately needs to be tossed out there.
I would not be surprised to find out they were. I've always thought it highly likely that the draw was fixed, so wouldn't it make sense to have some insurance? There is almost no doubt in my mind that FIFA wanted the USA to go home early. The rest of the world wants too badly to laugh at American soccer, rather than playing us for the World Cup championship.
Oh, I think there are plenty of teams that would be all too happy to be playing us for the World Cup championship at this point...
What is it with people named Tom? (Just an inside joke - never mind.) Maybe someone paid Reyna a lot of money to cough up the ball on the back line? (This is a joke too.) Anyway - even if it were fixed, it didn't change the fact that we played like crap and didn't really deserve to go through.
We don't have what it takes to beat the system. In 2002, if we got a competent call on that handball the momentum would have swung in our favor. We had them back tracking. The outcome may have been different. The match yesterday, we had the momentum going into the break. Sure it wasn't all great of a performance but in this very sport, momentum is so essential. The bad call knocked the wind out of the sails. Both calls were bad. Really bad. The system don't care for us to advance. The system will only make bad calls on us, only on us, and never on the opponent at the WC level. Imaging the Brits get a bad call like that? or the Germans? or Brazil? Yeah right. Dream on.
Yea.. the referees arranged for the U.S. to have 4 shots on goal in 3 matches. Idiot. 1998 World Cup -- 18 shots on goal vs Germany, Iran, Yugoslavia 2006 World Cup -- 4 shots on goal vs Czech R., Italy, Ghana It's the referees out to get us I tell you!!!
Hey I didn't say we played well or anything. All I'm saying is these nasty, idiotic calls have always been there for us at the WC. It would take an idiot to be surprised that at the next WC we'll get another call to send us home.
This pattern is evident throughout all kinds of sports -- I'm more familiar with US college football and basketball, but one can't escape all the chatter that it apparently happens all the time in the NBA, for example (e.g., the Jordan rules). Officials favor the team that's perceived as stronger. That to me it's perfectly plausible that this in fact happens, and that it has nothing to do with a conscious effort to deny the underdog. Rather, people see what they expect to see, and they don't expect the US to beat Germany, Vanderbilt to beat Alabama, etc. Furthermore it's a tough issue to fix because there's no doubt the underdog actually is an underdog for a reason, and the underdog rarely has the institutional advantages (e.g. fan base, economic base) to make the governing body take this issue seriously. I can't imagine that FIFA would let its crown jewel be corrupted -- there's just way too much at stake, similar to TMT's argument about US sports. IMO it's more plausible that officials could be bought without knowledge of the higher ups. By the way, when's Merk's next game?
Agreed, we didn't deserve to go through. However, given the history of this sport, what went on with Juventus, etc, plus the way those two games were called, it just makes me wonder. If we breathed on anyone prior to those calls, we were getting whistled for fouls. Afterwards, they allowed us to play a lot more aggresively but both calls in essence decided the matches. I'm not saying the games were fixed, I'm just raising the question. I think you could probably make a slightly better argument that the ref screwed up on Pope's call not realizing he already had one yellow, but couldn't reverse his decision at that point because it would have him look bad. I can't come up with an explanation for the PK yesterday.
This made my day Maybe this team didn't show up and the African teams are better (Ivory Coast, Ghana). Good try. We play sport eith the knowledge that Refs make bad calls. Anybody see Poll gave three yellows last night?
None of this is in dispute, but Plxix's first line got completely run over and ignored: "we don't have what it takes to beat the system." The US can't and shouldn't expect a game to be called evenly (to expect fairness, especially when diving has become such a big part of the game, is to be completely naive - even if the onus for losing is still on us), yet acts all surprised when the game isn't. This team has to play as if everyone is against them. What's to lose? At least their opponents and (usually) the spectators don't want them to win. The US didn't have this mentality yesterday.
Hahah It's actually a hilarious social quirk that I cannot help but laugh at. You could goto any message board for any soccer club team in the world. You could goto any message board for any American football team in the world. You could goto any message board for any NBA Baseball team in the world. You could walk into 6 local high schools in your own surrounding area. You will all hear the same thing. "The referees don't like us, they are out to get us." When that team gets a blatant call in their favor.. "Well, they owed us one after screwing us over in the last dozen." There's NOBODY... ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.. IN ANY SPORT.. who think they've gotten fair shakes from the referees.
BTW, that was an even match that got decided by the PK. Ghana knew we needed two goals to keep them from advancing after that goal, so they bunkered, which was the correct strategy. That PK dictated the way the rest of the match was played, so it in essence decided it.
I thought it was a PK too during live play. I thought Onyewu completely mugged him until I saw the replay.
The reaction here was entirely predictable. I guess it is easier for me to consider such possibilities because I've lived through it. I've seen my father get cheated out of his life savings by people acting in concert to take something from him that one of them wanted. When it's happened to you, you have little difficulty in accepting that it could happen again. Your thesis is feasible. Conspiracies do exist. Matches are fixed. People will act in underhanded ways to pursue agendas. So, the person who dismisses all such theories out of hand is just as much a fool as the person who believes them uncritically without evidence. To raise the question exposes one to ridicule, but it does not make one a fool.
Oh, and people will always bring up completely irrelevant facts to discredit you. For example, that the US did not play well enough to advance is true. That Ghana made the plays is true. Poor refereeing is a part of sports. None of those truths is at all relevant to the question of whether or not the match was fixed.
Tea Man, I'll take this seriously and make this simple enough. Pope card: Go look at Pope's second card again. He pulls out the yellow, puts away his stuff, Reyna argues, he pulls out his notebook, looks at it, and then shows Pope the Red. Clearly, Larrienda didn't know Pope had a yellow when he showed him that card. If he was trying to screw the US, giving Pope what he thought was a first yellow in the 46th minute won't do that. PK: The decision was horrible, yes. But he still called more fouls for the US than for Ghana, even tho it should have been even more lopsided. Over the game, and especcially early in the 2nd half, there were several either-or plays that went against Ghana. Plus, he gave 4 or 5 minutes of stoppage time in each half - which he did not have to do to avoid attention, since those are unusually large amounts even in timewasting games. While the one mistake was atrocious, and while it did cost the US a chance to go on, I don't think looking at Merck's play overall would indicate a fixing, rather than simply incompetence at dealing with divers and hackers.
Name one team in which a bad decision sent them home early. Twice. In a row. I don't know. For some, it may take a couple more bad calls from the next 2 World Cups to be convinced. 2002 - Bad no-call sent team USA home. 2006 - Bad call sent team USA home. 2010 - Bad call/no-call sent team USA home. 2014 - Bad call/no-call sent team USA home. June 25, 2014 - A thread made in BS raise the question that "perhaps" there's a pattern developing. Yet some BSers aren't convinced. Stay tune, til WC 2018...
I doubt that the matches were fixed, I just don't see what FIFA would gain (or lose) by the USA getting knocked out in the group stage. I think there are three main reasons that our players were treated somewhat harshly by the referees at WC 2006. 1)Our players do not do a good job when interacting with the referees - they whine and complain on every call, and they argue with the refs whenever they get a chance. These refs are on their biggest stage as well, and they don't like being challenged by the players. I just don't think the refs are looking to do our players any favors. 2)We play a more physical/less skilled style of soccer than many of our opponents, and we really need the referee to let the game flow. Most of the referees at this World Cup are not having it - they are calling fouls in the event of minor contact, and they are showing cards without warning. 3) FIFA has obviously not instructed the referees to eliminate diving from the game. This fact, coupled with point #2, really feeds into the hands of certain teams. If there is not a penalty for diving, why wouldn't a player try to exaggerate contact in the box? I'd be willing to bet that the penalty kick in USA vs Ghana will not be that last controversial/game changing penalty kick in this World Cup.
Yah I agree cause you know we're the only ones who had bad calls against us. Every other team in my opinion deserved the yellows, reds, and pks against them. Obviously this was planned. And I do agree that FIFA wants USA to fail in the WC so soccer can fail in the US because they want nothing to do with all that potential money that would come into the sport if USA became a powerhouse and you could tell they were quite pissed about the 94 cup being one of the most succesfull cup financially
Who wants to bet that if Argentina get close to the Finals and must face either Brazil, Italy, England or Germany that the refs are going make controversial calls against the Argies? Every Argentinian knows this. If one don't know one ain't Argentinian. We need to be like them and expect that crap flying in our direction and if we want to advance past the traditional powers we better have what it takes to beat the system itself.