A lot of inside sources attributed this formation change to Ballack. At the time the argument was over starting Kroos, who was coming off a fantastic season on the wing with Leverkusen, or Troche. He should have started Kroos.
I don't think it would have mattered. Contrary to some belief here, I don't think Loew is tactically capable. He hasn't experimented with a single alternative formation for a comprehensive amount of time outside the 4-2-3-1 which took long enough for him to even implement. Part of being tactically capable is seeing the strengths and weaknesses of a formation and given how we stormed into Euro 2012 with a singular gameplan that was to be fair, muddled and not entirely cohesive indicates he is a bit lost. He had the personnel at his disposal to do before Euro what he's just started doing now. He tried a three-man backline once and because of the result concluded it was a failure. He is timid and his changes against Italy were hugely symbolic of his universal approach to tactics as well.
THIS plus the 4-0 to 4-4 vs Sweden. Big ... huge disappointments. When I saw the starting eleven before the Italy match, I was really disappointed with Loew. I will not trust him until he wins a trophy.
Does Low ever win? Anything that works is the input of someone else, anything that fails is all Low Similar to "if we win its inspite of Low if we fail its 100% Low." We beat Portugal it was because of Ballack, beat England its because they suck, pummeled Argentina its because of Maradona, 2012 beat Holland its because the Dutch were in crisis, Beat Portugal Its because of individual players . LOSE TO SPAIN, Its all Low, LOSE to Italy its all Low. Our tactics in 2010 was defend pressurize opponent and move the ball forward with pace. Kroos defending in 2010 was very minimal (even he still struggles with that 3yrs later) he isnt the fastest thing on heels. In hindsight we might wonder what could have happened had he started but the night before the game it couldnt have been a so straight forward. NB: Our best chance of the day was missed by Kroos, A Kroos of 2013 might have taken the volley better
Spot on, credit to Del Bosque for developing the no striker formula, but Spain has a far, far superior squad, in terms of ability and experience. In 2012 we went with 2 23 year old defenders at the back, says it all.
Yeah, Germany would probably not be able to beat Spain's B team. Players such as - Valdes, monreal, puyol, martinez, mata, silva, fabregas, torres, llorente, albiol, isco, soldado, negredo, thiago,..and i'm missing a few more
I agree, but that's more reflective of the sheer in-depth quality of this Spanish "Golden Generation" than a lack of quality on Germany's part. Also, yeah you missed a few; Arteta, Joaquin, Cazorla, Benat, De Gea, Montoya, Delolufeu, etc. Truly astounding.
seriously? you need help with your reading-comprehension. The Italy-match was down to the players and Löw. Ok, "extraordinary" - how extraordinary? There are extents to that and I think that Spain's players are more extraordinary. Italy's are extraordinary in some ways. So are some players of a few other teams. So you do get better players than this - almost all in the Spanish side, but a few in other teams as well. As for the bolded part - I don't agree. It's not mostly Löw's fault that Germany played like that in their failed matches - in particular - the Italian match. He made mistakes, and his players did the rest against a team with extraordinary players of itself.
Yea that was also my point smartass. And to your initial assertion. Loew doesn't suddenly make the right decisions with Spain's squad at all. Football is a team/system sport. The players carry out and react how the manager carries out orders. If there is a clear pattern it most likely comes back to the coach all the time.
When I say "extraordinary", I mean exceptional players. Germany is filled with exceptional players. Italy is filled with exceptional players. Spain even moreso than both the others mentioned. You can always cherry pick players from other nations and say they too are exceptional. Löw had a serious contribution to both our major failures with this generation; the Italy match and the Spain match, particularly the Italy match. Expecting us to play against a tough and excellent opponent with a lineup/formation we'd never seen or even practiced a whole lot, sacrificing our width for trying to beat Italy with numbers in central midfield, and with a system our men were clearly unsure of their roles in was not smart. At all. This is fairly self-evident after-the-fact and it was also predictable before the match as well. Yet Löw was dead-set on doing his best to nullify Italy's advantages even if it meant sacrificing our own as well. This is the mindset of someone with a clearly inferior team working to not lose rather than an equal or on–par team working to win. The Spain match was about trying to initiate breaks, but Löw's decision to play the one-dimensional Trochowski over the technically-better, pacier Kroos or Marin was not helping, nor was his unwillingness to tell our wingers and striker to situate themselves in more advanced positions on the pitch to help get breaks started or to force Ramos, who was acting like a winger the whole match because we passively sat back and failed to exploit space in behind, back helpful either. And his total passiveness when we were clearly being outplayed and given a clinic by Spain until Puyol's header signalled a total lack of ambition; a contentness with not losing over a urgency to win. We are seeing a clear pattern here; Löw, when facing a very tough opponent, will, rather than go with what has already worked, panic, and try to figure out a "brilliant gameplan" that will nullify that opponent while changing our own game drastically on a whim to fit that unfamiliar, reactive gameplan, rather than remain confident in what has worked historically and work instead on improving our familiar, positive gameplan.
Eh Troch fit, definitely would've played him over Marin, and that may be the first time I've ever seen kroos described as pacey. My issue with Loew in that game was more the mentality adopted by the team, we defended deeper than we had at any point before that game and were more cautious about attacking in numbers. Now had Ozil gone down at the end of the half and we gotten a penalty to go into half time and pulled off the win this may be a completely different conversation, but Loew's strategy hanged on limiting the total number of chances in the game and banking on us doing better converting ours and that's not what happened. I think that the way he sent the team out was a substantial enough shift to start putting together a trend of Loew over-adjusting his team in big moments to the point of crippling our own strengths to try and compensate for the other team's's, as also seen in the embarrassment against Italy,
Sorry, that was stupid of me to call Kroos pacey. Wasn't thinking right, and was thinking more of Marin when I said that. But I believe Marin would've provided greater mobility and threat on the counter and at the time was one of the brighter prospects Germany had. On top of that, he and Özil had a good connection at Bremen. Remember; Marin's decline only happened when he began playing in the centre in the absence of Özil. Kroos, on the other hand, wouldn't provide much in terms of mobility or dynamism, but he had IMO superior technique, passing, and a better shot than Trochowski. I totally agree with everything else.
To be honest I don't think that 2010 side really had it in their locker to beat Spain. We were just too inexperienced and lacked tactical variety. The outcome was deserved and really that side was only suited to countering.
I disagree with SirManchester that we didn't have it in us to beat Spain. if Chelski had it in them to beat Bayern and Barça, 2010 Germany could've prevailed against Spain. Were we underdogs? Absolutely, but we were very well set-up to beat Spain with very fast, dynamic counter attacks and a ability to absorb pressure. Similar to Mourinho's Inter. We saw this against Argentina. The problem was Löw seemed insistent on two very deep banks of four with only Özil and Klose in advanced positions against Spain. We constantly hit long balls to them that almost always went nowhere. Özil and Klose were constantly isolated, trying to make stuff happen, while everyone else was too far deep to help them out when Germany was in position. The solution was to ease up in terms of the ultra-defensiveness of the system, push the wingers forward, and have greater faith in the backline to absorb pressure, similar to Argentina/England. We failed to do that until Puyol rammed a header into the net, and at that point it was too late. Spain killed the match and won. Would we have won if we had played more adventurous? Probably not, and we could've seen Spain really run up the score, but I believe we would've had a better chance of winning if we had decided to keep the positioning and tactical layout the same as when we faced Argentina.
IMO for that match he'd have been damned whatever he did. If Kroos had played we'd slam him for playing someone who clearly wasn't in his strongest position and how we lacked any width on the right side because of Löw's terrible selection, of course he should have played Marin. If we played Marin, then we'd now see complaints about how he played a player that hadn't shown anything since 2008. Playing Trochowski was not a bad decision by any means. If that Germany team was capable of defeating Spain, it would have done so; I doubt one 20/22 year old would have done anything about it, unless he was named Pele or Ronaldo or something. As for the tactical side of things; of course we defended deeper against Spain. I don't know if that was a pre-discussed tactic, but Spain has THE most dominant midfield in the world and you'll have done well to see the ball 40-45% of the time. Your defence and midfield is going to get pegged back out of necessity unless you can match them in the area at their own game, and at that time, Schweinsteiger and Khedira were no match for Xavi, Alonso and Busquets; I doubt any NT had a midfield capable of that. I don't understand where all the hate for Löw comes from. Is it just because of the Italy match? In my eyes, he's used up 1 of his quota of brainfarts. If he fails again at the WC 2014, then I might not be so patient with him, but until then, I think he's done a pretty commendable job of getting this team to play some good looking football while still winning matches.
I think that comparison is a bit off. Bayern last season were not that great, contrary to opinion around here. Maybe they should have won but a MAJOR weakness was exposed when they couldn't break down a very simple tactical plan from Chelsea. Spain had no weakness. They were a truly comprehensive team that deserved to go to the final and win. I think Barcelona were mentally weak against Chelsea and they showed the kind of tactical weakness that was punished. I don't see how we were set up to beat Spain at all. We had momentum just like they had theirs but we couldn't match them tactically in the end. Klose had to come deep constantly and he became more and more fatigued. Özil had to pull doubly duty. Creating from deep and running up to fill Klose's void. On the flanks we lacked our impact player in Müller and had no discernable threat to cut into the center and really run at Spain. Up to that point we were able to beat sides comfortably but with Spain we hit a wall. Our overly simple counter attacking plan couldn't cut it and Löw certainly didn't have an alternative. We were punished form a set piece but it could have been worse. It was a tight match but Spain NEVER for a single moment looked out of control. It was just another opponent that didn't phase them. Well yea, you're right and that was the issue. We had no tactical variety to offer or just about anything to make them lose control. The solution is hypothetical because we could easily have been punished if we went in as you suggest. Spain was far more drilled and efficient at taking their chances. So we kind of agree. I think to talk hypothetically is dangerous because I don't think we faced an opponent like them up to that point and we never tried to play that way with success.
Kroos had a decent chance at the far post and Oezil could have had a penalty in the end of the first half. Those big games are very close and even though Spain had most of the possession I wouldnt say never for a single moment looked out of control. It is counter attacking teams that beat them(Spain and Barca) usually. There is no other way. Robben had two great chances to win it for Netherlands on the counter attack. Paraguay and Portugal also had great chances. Spain won but they were not as perfect as you make them out to be. They needed a lot of luck ( as every world cup winner).
But they were. They were matched much better in the final but only because Netherlands played so physical. Germany didn't but they never phased Spain though, who looked calm the entire match almost like they knew they would not concede and would score eventually. It was profound and cemented them as a truly great team. My problem with countering is that a lot of it comes down to luck and the precision necessary to create comprehensive chances. We simply worked too hard to create those chances and seemd to be out of ideas how to approach the match in any other way. I think it's overstated how much countering can phase Spain. They were much more defensively disciplined than that and obviously every side can be prone to some counters but Spain's plan entailed a method to cope with it.
Anyway, let's forget about Spain and Germany's failures. Too much negative stuff/ bad memories. I am just happy Game of Thrones is back.
It was defiantly Loew's fault against Italy. Loew is overall pretty good in the work that he does, but I think he has this big match syndrome where he makes mistakes. Mistakes against Italy where He brought back Gomez over Klose all though Klose played well the previous two games He brought in Poldi over Reus, although Reus played very good previous game Fixed both points above on halftime but already to late. Changed the formation playing with KROOS, Schweinie and Khedira - they won all their games why change formation. Should have left out Schweinie (just was not inform at that stage) and rather played Muller in the classic 4231. Loew just showed real poor performance in that game. He got nervousness and made the wrong decisions which cost us a spot in the final.
Yah he jumbled the lineup... I really think with a 50% piggy we really suffered. Maybe if loew was brave enough to put kroos or gundogan in place... But it was the biggest game they faces yet, so I don't know if he was thinking we needed our biggest player. We also had injury stricken gotze who was not in top form and was recovering to get back to his best. Reus was still new and didn't "claim" his spot like he is now. I think we got to that point on sheer team talent, we were unlucky with the injuries key players had up to that tournament. You can even read what piggy said about it, how he didn't feel fully healed until after the tournament and into the preseason. How happy he was, his nagging injury washed away. IMHO: If we keep this up and these players are injury free and in top form next year. I really think we have a great chance at the WC title...
I wouldn't consider him poor. He was certainly superior to Podolski, his fellow mate on the wings. Did he do anything super impactful? No, but he didn't do a whole lot wrong either. And the fact is Germany as a whole wasn't neccessarily at their best either, and in the one match where we really flowed offensively, he didn't start.