Waving the flag down and then reconsidering

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RefIADad, Oct 19, 2020.

  1. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I saw this over the weekend in one of my son's games. I will not disclose which team was which to avoid any hints of bias.

    U13 competitive boys. Blue is attacking, and the offside flag correctly goes up. However, the ball goes to the goalkeeper, and the center waves the offside flag down about 15 yards from the keeper and in the keeper's line of sight. I did not hear a "keep playing" or any sort of verbal indication to White's keeper that the game should continue without the free kick, but the "put the flag down, please" signal was clear.

    The keeper then begins to release the ball, but sees a different Blue player (who was not active in the original play) coming up to press, but was not close to playing distance at the time the keeper released the ball (probably 5-6 yards, but coming in with speed). The keeper "short-arms" the ball as he releases it. As the previously onside Blue starts to collect the ball, the center whistles play to a stop and then awards the free kick. Blue's coach asks why the center stopped play. The center's response (which I clearly heard on the sideline) was, "I could tell from his body language and the look in his eyes that he wasn't sure what was going on."

    Given the age of the players, what would your call have been in this case? If I'm in the center, I'm calling out something like, "Keeper plays it (or "We're playing"). Good flag, (name of AR here)!" to let everyone know I saw the flag but we are going to let the keeper distribute the ball.
     
  2. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    This play is one of the arguments for not playing advantage on OS like this. But players should also know to play to whistle not the flag--but we all know that while they have been told that, they only sort of believe that.

    The AYSO National Referee course used to use an example not too far from this to think about where the line is between bending the LOTG in the interests of the SOTG and just making stuff up. (I don't know if they still use the example.)

    I think there is an element of YHTBT on this, and a question of how competitive of 13U. As referees we don't want to confuse the players, and I agree that being vocal about letting play continue is important when waving down flags that might confuse players, especially younger players. So that's a long winded way of me saying I waffle here. I probably wouldn't go that route--but if I'm not accepting the flag, I'm going to be very vocally clear. But I don't have a big issue with the decision this referee reached, either. (I would have an issue at a more advanced age.)
     
  3. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the U13 level, I think you have to be extremely clear in both words and actions that play will continue. Otherwise, the safe play is to just give the free kick right away. There will be a few players who will know that the flag doesn't stop the game, but most won't. In this case, I think the best play is to just whistle the play and give the free kick - particularly if the referee isn't overly vocal like I am. If the goalkeeper collects the ball, I would be yelling for the keeper to play the ball.

    At older levels (and quite honestly, probably not much older than this), if the keeper collects the ball and does a poor job of releasing, that's on the keeper.
     
  4. Pelican86

    Pelican86 Member

    United States
    Jun 13, 2019
    I had a couple situations like this in yesterday's games. I was CR in a U17 girls game, long ball upfield, AR raises the flag but ball goes straight through to the keeper. I wave him down and say "Keeper's got it" and we play on. No problems. At that age group and skill level, it was clear what was going on.

    Later in the day I'm AR on a U13 boys game. Two players are battling for the ball, attacker gets it but is running along the touchline away from goal when he gets pushed in the back. I wave my flag, CR signals advantage, players are confused, a few stop, one kicks the ball forward, a few more players stop, but play continues. Obviously I didn't think there was any advantage to be gained or I'd have kept my flag down. And the players should know to play to the whistle and not the flag.

    However, at that age group and experience level, I think if players stop and expect the foul (and you as the CR think it was a foul, of course) you should stop and whistle for the FK. If the players don't understand how to play the advantage, there is no advantage.
     
  5. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    "You got the ball, keep. Let's go."

    If I'm the referee who had already put the game in this situation, I'd give a IFK for the keeper for blue interfering with the keeper releasing the ball. Probably stretching the Laws too much, but it's U-13.
     
  6. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll spill the beans. The player coming in to press was my son (I'm guessing some of you figured that out). Overall, I thought that the referee should have just given the free kick. At an older level, what my son did was completely fair. At a U13 level, it's probably acceptable to pull the play back. For better and worse, my son is a student of the game and of the Laws. He was upset about the call, but he also forgets that most 12-year-olds don't have his understanding of the game.

    I was a little biased, but I felt like there was a little too much time between the release of the ball and blowing the play dead to restart with a free kick. However, at U13, there was definitely some confusion. Since I do a lot of upper-level high school, club, and college, I also sometimes fall back into forgetting that U13 is very different from U17 or U19.
     
    dadman repped this.
  7. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member+

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe I am not understanding this right, but at pretty much any level I have officiated, if the keeper has the ball in their possession, your son should in no way be "pressing" him. You said he hasn't within playing distance, but he was moving in with speed.

    IDFK
    • prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from the hands or kicks or attempts to kick the ball when the goalkeeper is in the process of releasing it

    Your son moving towards a keeper who has the ball in their hands I usually warn players who I see shadowing the keeper after they gain possession. Maybe it was a YHTBT moment.


    EDIT. I reread and noticed had released the ball already so maybe I am reading it incorrectly.....
     
  8. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When the keeper released the ball, he was 5-6 yards away and coming from the left as the keeper released the ball to the right.. He wasn’t close enough to be considered in a position where he wasn’t allowing the keeper to release the ball.
     
    Ickshter repped this.
  9. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Question: How was the offside attacker involved in play here? Did he actually interfere with play/the opponent, or was it an early flag on a long ball that ended up going straight to the keeper?

    Really, I very rarely play advantage on an offside play--because it's fairly rare for the ball to end up in the keepers hands after an attacker has truly interfered with play (for example, the offside attacker takes a shot, and it's saved). In the case where an offside attacker interferes, you're almost always better off calling it than playing advantage. Distribution from the keeper isn't really that much of an advantage over a free kick anyway, and often it's best for game-control to acknowledge the offense.

    Now, what happens a lot more often is an over-eager AR will raise his flag on a long ball, that ends up going straight to the keeper before the player in offside position actually reaches it. In this case, you're not playing advantage, you're waiving-off an AR for making the wrong call. And in that case, restarting in the way that is described by the OP is definitely wrong (but still might be the best move, depending on the age and skill level).
     
    socal lurker, Gary V and chwmy repped this.
  10. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At the U13 level, I had no issue at all with the AR raising the flag in this case. If I was the AR, I would have also raised the flag. The offside attacker was approaching the keeper with some speed and was the only attacker with a chance to play the ball. In my pregame, I tell my assistants that if the attacker is active, is the only attacker who could play the ball, and is approaching the keeper with speed, get the flag up earlier. I'll live with an earlier offside to keep players safe.

    If this was an over the top ball down the sideline or channels, then the flag was too early. But in this case, the flag was more than acceptable as I instruct my ARs - as was the initial decision to acknowledge and wave the flag down when the keeper collected the ball. Until the referee blew the whistle several seconds after the keeper released the ball because he thought the keeper was confused, the mechanics of the play were actually excellent.
     
  11. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I'm going to disagree on excellence here. If the possibility of a collision warranted a flag, then it also warranted a whistle. The point of the flag in such a scenario is so that the R can whistle the play dead and prevent the wholly unnecessary collision--it's not a time to think about advantage. So in my view, either the AR was a bit too quick on the flag, or the R failed to appropriately whistle to avoid the collision. That isn't a horrible blunder by one of them, but I think it falls far short of excellent.
     
  12. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 sjquakes08, Oct 21, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
    While there's a lot of variables here, I'd be careful with this instruction.

    Yes, if there's an imminent keeper collision by an offside attacker, and that collision can be prevented with a whistle, and there's no other foreseeable outcome than a collision, it's wise to blow the whistle. This situation, however, is actually pretty rare, and also difficult for a referee crew to pull off, as it requires really good judgement and timing. It's so rare and difficult, I'd argue, that it's not even really worth teaching below advanced levels.

    What's a lot more common is for ARs to hear this instruction, and proceed to raise the flag in any situation where there's anywhere close to a possibility of an offside attacker and keeper challenging for a ball--i.e., any through-ball. And this creates bad habits for both referees and for players, as it blurs the line of when an offside offense actually occurs.

    As Socal Lurker says above, the fact that there was no whistle on the play you describe says that this was not in fact one of those situations where a whistle was necessary to avoid a collision.

    So to put my long-winded reply succinctly: really, a raised offside flag should always be accompanied by a whistle, except in the rare case of a clear advantage (and mere possession by the keeper is not a clear advantage), in which case it should be accompanied by a clear advantage signal. Any other situation means either the AR put his flag up too soon, or the CR noticed the flag too late.

    Of course, it's U-13, so imperfections are gong to happen--but you can still strive for perfection!
     
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    You must have better ARs than I do on some of these younger games!

    While I totally understand your concern about newer ARs having trouble with the collision directive, I disagree with not teaching it. The issue is probably biggest at younger levels where players have less control--the levels where these newer folks are going to be reffing. As a safety issue, I think it is important to be part of introductory referee courses. (And yes, I realize it may make for some extra false-positives on OS, but I'm OK with that trade off.)
     
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  14. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    Alot of discussion about the particulars of this situation as it pertains to Law 11. But I use a rule of thumb that encompasses this and other weird occurrances:
    If there is confusion on the field and the referee contributed to the confusion, it is OK to go to Law 18 to end the confusion -- if no other laws are readily at hand.

    In this case: "I could tell from his body language and the look in his eyes that he wasn't sure what was going on." Did the referee contribute to that state? If Yes, then fix it.
     
    dadman and ArgylleRef repped this.

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