It's a fact my dear friend. Although among male youths islam is generally not taken too serious for a while it's quite clear that the majority of muslims take their religion seriously. I went to school with (many) muslims, I work with muslims... I know what I'm talking about. It's also known fact that a lot of young male muslims party for a while, only to return to islam later on. Marriages between muslim boys and Dutch girls are extremely rare, and that's just because in the end, they prefer a muslim girl. And even more so, the family 'demands' it. Your figures are very nice and probably true. But this isn't about going to the mosque. It's about feeling like a muslim, practicing ramadan, etc. And trust me, the vast majority of them do that. We kill em all. Come on Mike... I know you're all popular and stuff and you have to think of your image. I understand and I respect that. And if you have to... stick to joking around because being serious doesn't suit you a bit. Get a clue. Because US and US politics are an open book (for most part at least) while I saw 'De Telegraaf' described as a 'liberal newspaper' here. Really... you don't have the slightest clue about this country and the situation it is in. And why should you? It seems the raid has ended and police have entered the house. Some damped explosions were heared (probably blowing up the doors or something). Police haven't made any comments yet but unconfirmed reports say at least one person was injured.
As neeskens repeatedly demonstrates here, that's not true. As for someone's description of a newspaper - if everyone in Holland was like one random person, I might never visit again. Just because someone here said something stupid, doesn't mean all Americans think that. I like to know what's going on in the world, even in politiclaly ossified countries.
It's not my figures, it's your expert's figures. Saying something is a fact without providing facts is an opinion at best. You're also moving the goalposts. I didn't say Muslims were atheists with no religious identity, just that most were not that religious. Are you now saying that integration requires Muslims to completely give up their identity? That's ridiculous. I also find it interesting that you say Muslims don't want to marry Dutch girls, but you pretend there is no racism on the other side.
There have been researches about Moroccans, Egyptians, Tunisians, Turks etc and their self image in the NL. It showed that a very big part of them identified as muslims and or/arabs first. The Turks (being quite a proud folk) feel Turk first. I'll see if I can find something on it. IIRC this was a research amongst youngsters up to 24 years of age. Hell... I do not know a SINGLE person that ever visited a church except for my grandmother. In my family and my environment religion is non existent. To me, people who do ramadan are religious as hell. So maybe that's where we tend to disagree. Where the hell did you come up with this??? You gotta be kidding me dude... these are your words and I have no idea how you got this from my post. I'm not talking about racism, I'm talking about religion and religious/cultural differences that tend to get in the way of a good marriage. Racism is a whole other topic. BTW... the police action is finished. At least 2 people have been arrested one of whom has been taken to a hospital. Unconfirmed reports state that 2 men have been arrested earlier this day. Another was arrested in Utrecht (no idea what for, but it has something to do with all this)
Good to now that we are not the only ones with problems integrating muslims. Maybe some Turkish poilitician in the EU could help that...! And about de Telegraaf: From an American view of point every big European newspaper is liberal ;-)
[cheapshot]Surely you industrious Germans could come up with some solution for dealing with minority groups?[/cheapshot]
Well, just look at how we handled Italian immigration in the 70s... wasn#t supposed to work, worked though. We have troubles with Turkish and German-Russians though, as the netherlands seem to have with their muslims. No comparsion with what England had to face because of their colonies at the other hand... Or what the Us has atm... Except a certain period Germany intergated better than most other big countries imo... but you won't understand it, so I'll just leave it at this...
She is quite tasty, she probably wouldn't touch your fat yank arse with a bargepole snd it's now the euro dumb fookwit!
So why do you instead of bothering to discuss serious matters try to turn this into another discussion about me? Again, this situation is SERIOUS, inspiring a new discussion on integration in the European Union yesterday, for example. If you bother to offer an opinion on that I'll enjoy arguing with you. As for your personal posts, I'll ignore those if you don't mind.
Fair point, they'd probably think it a commie rag. So where do you think Germany has gone wrong then? I think the Dutch have been too liberal in the past, making it too easy for muslim immigrants to exist outside Dutch society. Things have slightly changed over the past couple of years but the damage was already done.
Well, The Germans expected the Italians to go home when there was no more work, same with those ppl from Turkey and so on. Now italy doing much better the Italians intergated quite well I'd say, the Germans now really love Italian Ice cream and Italian food. But the turks are different. Most of them come from rural areas in turkey (no need to move from Istanbul, is there?), where life is not much different than in Lebanon or Iran, so they still are very religious and stuff. They are not well prepared to life here and while the Italians managed it somehow they seperated themselves (I am speaking of the ones we are having trouble with, way over 50% of the immigrants here integrated really good, one of my better friends is Russian, many ppl with turkish origin are german now). But some tried to seperate themselve, speak no german (ever been to Berlin kreuzberg?) and live life as they did in Turkey or even worse. They are afraid of the liberlity we offer here, especially about there daughters, so they are often married to ppl in Turkey against there will, ppl they never met and they for sure not love, even though they grew up in german schools like Germans, Italians and so on. The Germans ignored the fact that immigration was going on and just had no programs, and some turks here just feel left alone, so they flee into what they think is their culture (it's more Iran's culture than theirs). They don#t want their kids to mix with us, want them to grow up like they think is right, which is just against basic german rights. So the Germans just underestimdet the problems that could come by ignoring, now it is too late I'd say... But we are still trying, and when Turkey joins in they will see that fundemtalism is just a 'Sackgasse' with noe way out, I hope. And same with the German Russians, they just avoid to have to do with any Germans, because the young ppl did not want to come here and know no german. Again, this is only true for some, most Russians here are doing fine imo...
Mike is not a prick. He's just rightly making sure that no Euroweenies here break their arms while patting themselves on the back for supposedly being so tolerant. And I'm just rightly making sure that Mike's efforts don't cause any Ameriweenies to break their arms patting themselves on the back for supposedly being superior to the Euroweenies. Now go have a martini or three and chill out.
It cuts both ways. Who outside Holland ever heard of Theo Van Gogh until some jacknuts decided to make a martyr out of him? All I can say is that here in Chicago, the rednecks are probably too afraid of Mr. Farrakahn's strapping young supporters to firebomb any mosques here. Instead, they use their free time to desrecrate Jewish cemeteries and go marching in Skokie. "Illinois Nazis. I hate Illinois Nazis." If the past election showed anything, it's that there are no "blue" or "red" states. The real fault line is the "urban/rural" one. Agreed. Hey, you wanted to know what would happen if Spanish-speaking terrorists struck America and I showed you. Take it as you will. [Karl Keller]Yeah, because if we'd had Armas, we'd have made the Final in Japorea, no problem![/Karl Keller]
You reply to my post not directed at you, and then tell me you'll ignore my posts. You do see how that makes no sense, right? I have no interest in discussing you. I used you as a convenient example. I have little to say on this subject, because I don't know enough about Dutch politics, especially on this issue. That's why I'm not arguing about them.
That's not such a bad idea from Hollands point of view. Think about all the weed you'd be able to import...
There's many similarities with the situation in Holland then. I think the solution can be relativley straightforward: treat all those with a Dutch (or in your case German) passport exactly the same. So no more discussion groups, no more translating every single official document in 20 languages, no more special integration initiatives. This gives immigrants a chance to gain some self-respect, and you also take away feelings of frustration that exist among the native population.
We don't need to import weed. We produce our own and sell it to the Belgians and the Americans, among others. The proceeds are taxed so while the silly tourists get stoned out of their heads the Dutch economy benefits.