I was watching the "friendly" between USA and Mexico. There was a red card for SFP (I assume). Mex #14 hits USA #20 with studs up and gets RC. - start at 1:20 mark My first thought was that USA #5 bumped Mex #14 and knocked him off balance, causing, or at least contributing to the foul. As a result, I don't think I would have given the RC. PS - earlier I think I would have given USA #3 YC for UB (taunting). And he was already on a YC for PI thoughts?
Yeah, no. It's 100% a SFP red card. Don't look for excuses. The protests from the Mexican players, given the setting and situation, were muted at best. Everyone knows this is a red card on the field. Don't surprise them. And is "taunting" a yellow card in the LOTG? Is it a yellow that you would ever seen given in an international or professional match? No. We pay attention to it because it was a visual act and we can see what he did and infer what he said. But think of all the things said between professional players that we don't sanction, including what the Mexican player very likely said in this confrontation. Are we suddenly going to go around cautioning all such actions? You're not if you're an international referee. You either let this go or give a stern admonishment. The player is being a punk and maybe being a punk is justification for a 2CT in a high school or U14 match, but it's not at this level.
Obviously I don't work anywhere near this level, so my only lens is my experience. Just trying to get my my head around the thought process for what the game expects. I don't think the RC foul occurs without the bump. I know they did not argue much, but that is still what I am seeing. And the taunting almost escalated the situation (and definitely caused more nonesense). And that is what I tend to punish in my games.
You are correct to punish this type of behavior in HS or youth ball, but at a professional level you have to manage it another way. As for a RC foul, these are professionals, they know what they are doing. In most youth games and even MBB games if a player goes into a challenge with studs showing, even if he makes no contact with the player, I am probably calling dangerous play. I don't want anyone getting hurt because someone did something by accident in a first place. But at a professional level, to a degree higher youth and D1 college, if a player goes into a challenge with studs showing and gets all ball, there is usually no call. However if they miss the ball for one reason or another it's on them. Red Card every time.
I think 3 is just telling 18 to not start anything because he is so much bigger. 18 clearly was trying to bait him into something by closing the distance between them and escalating the altercation following the foul call. Is that Taunting? Does watching the NFL seep into our brains as soccer Ref's? I don't think if a small RB went belly to belly with a DE in the NFL, and the DE did that gesture to say, "come on, we can't fight, I've got 50 lbs and 10" on you", that would even be taunting in that league. Any other things we see in the NFL or other sports that seeps into our heads as soccer refs? Certainly rules are effected by exposure to other sports. VAR certainly the newest. But the Continuation Rule is relatively recent and probably was added because sports like hockey and basketball give such an advantage on fouls.
I agree, but let me ask this. 18 is clearly beaten. A DFK doesn't hurt his team here. So he cynically grabs the shirt and kicks the ankle. Would you give a caution at this level? I certainly would at youth levels. 4 comes in clearly trying to escalate things. Would you give a caution at this level? I certainly would at youth levels.
Not often, but not unheard of. In the Manchester Utd/Burnley match on 8/27, Rashford and Bardsley got into a tussle. Rashford was sent off for a headbutt, and Bardsley got cautioned for taking up an aggressive posture in Rashford's face. This may not be a great example, though, since Bardsley really should have been sent off for the VC that initiated the tussle in the first place.
Also, taking a look at the video, it looks like the studs up challenge was a result of the player stepping on the ball. As he slid over the ball, the ball pushed his leg up in the air. I'm not sure if that eliminates the RC since he still made contact with his studs, but I'd struggle to say that he played with excessive force by falling over the ball. At game speed, falling over the ball might not have been easy to see.
*** Warning this is not for your typical grade 8 referee, so don't try it at your neck of the woods league *** You have to separate your typical youth league from pros. In you daily games card them let them know that this type of behavior is unacceptable. To be totally honest, I didn't see the game, only the highlights. However in higher levels this is where game management comes into play. Technically yes you could caution both for their actions, but as the saying goes. "You may have won the battle but lost the war." Save your cards for something really important, like reckless play, etc. You really want to avoid cautioning someone for things that happen when the ball is not in play at this level. If two knuckeheads want to go and argue with each other calling each other names,its part of entertainment that the fans are paying for. And to be clear I'm not talking about sent off offences like headbutts and other serious infractions. As Herb Silva was quoted saying: I have a lot of referees that know how to call fouls. I even have referees that know to point in the right direction, what I'm looking for is for someone that can make an event.
Things had just settled down and he came flying in and sparked it off again... Perfectly reasonable caution because of that.
I have a bridge I would like to sell you . . . See the discussion in the other thread: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/ive-got-questions-youve-got-answers.770484/page-10#post-37099644 (I'm not saying that it should have been cautioned, but if you think he wasn't being deliberately provocative, you're fooling yourself.)
My semi joke is that the only three people who wouldn’t say this is a send off are on the MLS IRP. The key issue for me was that the challenge was two-footed. There was no control at all. It’s probably still red even if not two footed, but that sealed the red for me.
While no doubt there is a lot of truth in what Silva said in regards to "producing an event," there is also a reason as to why he was fired by MLS and why PRO was created in the first place. Silva and his referees took that "produce an event" philosophy to an extreme which resulted in MLS looking at times like a glorified amateur league with all the antics of the players and referees. The "produce an event" management style led to rough tackles, ugly games and just a product that did not look pleasing on the eye to the consumer because the referees kept indulging the players' excess. The referee handled the situation with Miazga as well as he could. If he wasn't on a caution already, I think Miazaga would get one and one of the Mexican players as well for the game disrepute. If you are going to nitpick, I think #4 of Mexico probably deserved a caution on that mass confrontation. Miazga and #18 of Mexico let it go and moved while #4 came all the way in to escalate the situation even more.
Personally, I don't have a problem with what Miazga did. I'm glad to see somebody with a little bit of an attitude. As a referee, I think you have to manage this situation. Get in there and keep the players separated, and things will cool down. As long as nobody else comes in to escalate the situation, things will work themselves out. Unfortunately, that was not the case here. #4 for Mexico had to come in and try and be macho and stir things up again. That is the guy that should, and did, get the yellow card. Now, about the red card. That call is 100%, no doubt a red card every time. For @DefRef to say that the player was "bumped" and that he would not give a red card, that's just crazy. If you only give a yellow card there, then you are sending the message to every other player on the field that they can commit the same type of foul and only get a yellow as well. However, by giving the red card, you are now sending the message that this type of challenge will not be tolerated and has no place in this game.
I’m with you. Every team needs a guy who will agitate and mix it up. Love him or hate him, Sergio Ramos has made a career of being this guy. I was wondering who the “enforcer” would be with Deuce gone. If Miazga fills that role, great.
So keep in mind I'm trying to learn here and understand what everyone else is seeing. Cause everyone is saying RC no doubt. What I am seeing is the is 2 players moving at speed towards the ball. And the trailing USA #5 getting his leg into the back of Mex #14 knee, causing his leg to go up and over the ball. Cause and effect. Nobody else sees it like that? It's all Mex #14 going recklessly/violently into the ball?
The problem I have is the unjustifiable arrogance that Miazga and other USMNT players show when they haven't really done anything it. Miazga and Altidore, especially, walk around MLS and during USMNT games like they are Cristiano Ronaldo when they are nothing more than journeyman players. Sergio Ramos has won 4 Champions League titles, two European Championship and a World Cup. Miazga hasn't even played in the World Cup much less won a knockout game in the World Cup. Have arrogance and attitude, but back it up with some success on the field.
It’s the lunging motion that occurs before the challenge from the US player. He is in the air with both feet, has no control, and has force behind it (speed, locked legs, and studs). Maybe his right leg gets tapped but I don’t think he would be in control of that challenge regardless.
This post is beyond bizarre. You are accusing a 23-yo defender of not being Sergio Ramos. OK... He is new on the scene and is arrogant. He hasn't been in MLS in 3 years, so he really isn't 'walking' around MLS. When we last saw him he was celebrating a goal in Yankee Stadium by pretending he hit a home run. He's got a bit of Jersey Shore attitude. Big deal. Get over yourself. Oh, he has won a Gold Cup championship. Must be something small in your book.
Maybe Ramos wasn’t a good comparison. He was the first guy I thought of who you HATE when he’s not in your squad, but you want a guy like that on your team. In MLS, the first two guys that comes to mind for me are Ozzie Alonso and Diego Chara. Both have more than a little mean streak to them and will “enforce” when called upon. Kendall Waston from Vancouver is another one. With some of the promising skill players in the current USMNT pool, they need a guy who will provide a little muscle.