I wanted to create this thread since it really should be a requirement of every outspoken fan. Second viewings can objectively correct short term discussions which are not based on anything other than personal experience. For some, a 6 - 0 thrashing is a forgetful experience that we should store in the chest. For others, there is an opportunity to see where we were not tested and see what players missed recognition. No matter where you are on the last qualifier it's always insightful to engage the match a second time and I believe it makes for better discussion. That said: Attacking: There is no need to say anything about the performances of Pulisic and Dempsey. Everyone thrived with Pulisic's smart movement and clear direction during the game. For me, beyond Politic, Jozy Altidore was the other man of the match. He was incredible on second viewing and I encourage everyone to watch his absolutely stellar connecting play. Midfield: Bradley on first viewing seemed disjointed and frantic at time. On second viewing, you see his class present itself. The main reason I feel this way is the tactical choices from Bruce Arena. There were times where it was 4 - 1 - 5. Literally no one tracked back at times and it was mind boggling. Bradley played better as the match went on and had one of the best performances I've seen from him in a long time. Nagbe, even upon second/third viewing, was a major disappointment [I originally was mildly disappointed]. There are a lot of false stats floating around playing him up more than he was. If he made any impact, it was well after we were up 6 - 0. These people claiming "nuance" or that "some people just don't get it" need to watch the game a few times over. I have time stamps of Nagbe's contributions on this match and that includes "off the ball" movement that isn't so obvious. Bedoya was so much better than Nagbe throughout the entire match. It's like "nuance" means I limped a header which was whiffed by a Honduran and it ultimately led to a US goal. I stopped watching him after 70 minutes - it was so incredibly boring. Waste of my time. Bedoya played very well and really helped Bradley once he was on. Defense: The defense was the most interesting part of the field if you weren't focused on the fireworks. Cameron didn't look the part at RB, but thats not a surprise because he hasn't played RB in awhile. It was hard to get a good judgment on Villafana and I reserve the right to wait and see. Brooks is awesome for the most part, but he doesn't command the line well yet. There were two moments he was suspect for slow reaction would have beat him, but the unit performed well. Gonzo is clearly the most controversial player and he deserves to be with his brick footed forays into the midfield. Spare me the heart attack Omar, I only watch Pachuca cause they are a sweet team. I am in the party that thinks Omar is not a long term solution.
This is not a Nagbe game that gets put in a time capsule, that was the gist of what I said. This is about the floor when it comes to his performances. Meaning he does some things more consistently than anyone else. 32/34 passing (both misses in the attacking half), 6/7 tackles (this is a very high number and an outlier), 5 recoveries, 1 clearance, 1/4 dribbling (all 3 failed dribbles in the attacking half near the sideline), and 1 foul drawn. More tackles and fewer key passes and successful dribbles than his average. The header you deride was a smart play (see how he immediately wheels around to see how the attack develops) but nothing more. He played another nice pass to put CP into the box (that one was pulled back and crossed to Jozy at the 6). The soccer I like is about creating order out of chaos. That can take the form of imposing order or ordering chaos and imposing it on the opponent. You call Nagbe boring and I call him highly consistent. Pass him the ball, he will keep it, and he will get it to a teammate who can chose to keep it or attack. That builds trust. Good teams string as many of those positive moments together as needed to open up a defense. Having players who can do that together is key to establishing control of a game and imposing your team's order.
I agree with you about second viewings. I think Nagbe just frustrates you because you're looking for the player you think he should be and not the player he is.
This is a pretty good articulation. We played very direct and at a very high tempo yesterday and Honduras couldn't handle that. Part of being able to do that with trust is having the counterbalance of a disciplined, technical, strong, fast player like Nagbe who holds, possesses, and circulates the ball. We haven't had much of that in a player for a while in the same way we haven't had a running creative force like Pulisic. And also Bedoya who anticipates changes in possession so well and understands the leverage they represent. And also Bradley who cleans up after everything with his engine. Although he is very, basically...untidy at times. Which good teams can punish. Let's appreciate that Dempsey-Pulisic-Altidore looking like such badasses with so much space was in part because of the trust they had in the consistency of the players behind them. (And Bruce's capability in defining those roles for players who would succeed in them). I think Nagbe-Bradley-Bedoya played just as well.
i loves me some Nagbe. every time he gets the ball i feel confident in the following actions and happenings. he can maintain possession under duress, and this will be extra valuable when facing even more difficult opponents. too bad Llegett got injured. i feel like hes another, possession guy. maybe the two of them would help Bradley and limit his mistakes and turnovers. since our coaches are too afraid to move on from Bradley and try others. usa is in this funny state. we play weaker concacaf teams and can win with Bradely and Bedoya types. but how do we ever advance or play better? wev all mentioned higher possession and creative players. nagbe, llegett, i believe provide both. still think kljestan and benny would be of service. back to the match, there were gaps in the midfield. from the D to Bradley, from Bradley to Pulisic/Dempsey. Honduras wasnt good enough to take advantage of it. i feel like we could have had more width. Omar was horrible. hated that our 3 subs were Bedoya, Zusi, Ream gimme Zimmerman get us some dam FBs both JK and BA have failed. wish we would try Dax at DM instead of Bradley. we'll never know if we dont try. we'll never get better doing the same Bradley + Jones we have been which is exactly what im expecting in the next game Bradley + Jones yuck
There is always a gap. Spain, for example, during their pomp left a gigantic gap between the keeper and back line. Gotta give to get. Replace Zusi with Nagbe then we advance past Belgium.
Mr. @darlingtonnagbe gave a subtle, sophisticated performance for the #USMNT Friday night. An appreciation ⚽️🇺🇸➡️ https://t.co/mXlk2vp49a pic.twitter.com/x9RdwSGMR4— John Godfrey (@godfreyhjohn) March 26, 2017 Well worth your time to read. Good stuff, as always, from @noahedavis. I thought Nagbe wasn't flashy but very effective vs. Honduras #usmnt https://t.co/EOmuiR89B1— Brian Sciaretta (@BrianSciaretta) March 26, 2017
[QUOTE="neems, post: 35276217, member: 146029"Bradley played better as the match went on and had one of the best performances I've seen from him in a long time. [/QUOTE] And do you know why that is? Because Bradley was playing as a defensive midfielder, his best and most natural position! Duh! Making him an attacking midfielder was the dumbest move ever, and Klinsmann was behind it. He is not and will never be an attacking midfielder. Sure, he can score goals, but he is best as a deep lying defensive midfielder. He provides good linkup between defense and attack. His goal against Honduras was nearly identical to one he scored for Roma.
I think the most controversial of your observations would be those regarding Nagbe, though I don't think that "controversial" is really synonymous with "wrong," but rather "debatable." In general I think is good, thought-provoking work.
I thought this was his worst game he's played for us and was the second to worst performance after Gonzalez. I'm not sure he starts on Tuesday. I'd assume Jones is going to play and I'd have a hard time playing nagbe Over Bedoya. I also find it hard to believe that Hyndman doesn't put in a more impressive performance than what Nagbe did the other night. He had a couple of nice moments... the run early on where he cut across the field, putting heavy pressure on defender in the corner to win a throw in, and a decent ball into space for Pulisic in the the second half. It's isn't enough though. He had the least impact of the front six and didn't appear is he was trying to have an impact. How does a wide midfielder in this game not connect more with Altidore, Dempsey, and Pulisic. You don't need his skill and physical tools to make a bunch of square and back passes. His play/decision making was slow a number of times believe that what happened on times he turned the ball over. I'd be curious how many of completed passes were unnecessary balls back to Howard that were just cleared or headed balls to Pulisic's head while under pressure and resulted in us losing possession. What I like least was what appears to just be effort. He didn't show well for the ball many times and it ended in a pass not getting to him. He didn't track back well on many occasions. Attackers he was defending got off crosses with little effort. He didn't follow the play forward and simply stood and watched (after heads the ball to Pulisic on the Dempsey goal in the first half). I don't think I've seen a less impressive/dominant 6-0 game. The result was basically moments of brilliance from Pulisic, Altidore and Dempsey. If we played like that in our first two games, I'm not sure the results are any different. I'm not sure it will be enough to get a result against Panama on Tuesday. Team Statistics 9 Shots 11 8 Shots on Target 4 1 Shots off Target 5 0 Blocked Shots 2 0 Corners 7 3 Crosses 30 2 Offsides 2 15 Fouls 8 1 Yellow Cards 1 0 Red Cards 0 431 Total Passes 446 83 % Passing Accuracy 81 % 47.7 % Possession 52.3 % 52 Duels Won 54 17 Tackles Won 19 4 Saves 2 41 Clearances 2
Anyone criticizing Nagbe after that performance loses all credibility when it comes to evaluating players. Their opinion is worthless. He was nearly flawless in the role he was asked to perform, and clearly to any seasoned set of eyes, the 3rd or 4th best player on the pitch for us.
If that was the role he was asked to play then Arena is wasting a spot. I'd say the ASN community has the relative order right with general inflation across the board. Arena's rating of 9.8 is absurd. Our defense looked pretty ragged and we gave up way too many decent opportunities in this match. Dempsey, Pulisic, Altidore, Howard, Lletget, Bedoya, and then Nagbe tied with Bradley for 7th best performance with a 6.6. Brooks and Cameron not far off at 6.5 and 6.4. Villafana, Zusi, ream and Gonzalez pulling up the rear. http://americansoccernow.com/player_ratings
I only re-watched the first 26 minutes so far until the Bradley goal (I prefer a re-watch a little at a time and rewind a bit) and there were several times where a player like Dempsey or Pulisic or Bradley is in a tough spot and, rather than kick it up at Altidore, gives the ball to Nagbe in a worse spot. THEN, in a horrible place to keep possession, Nagbe keeps it, gets out of it, puts the ball right on the foot of somebody in space, switching it to Cameron, back to Gonzo, over to Bedoya, patiently waiting for a short pass back to Bradley. You guys talking about "he always passes backwards," do you see the value in him keeping the ball? Having 3-4 Hondurans try to trap him in possession and then Honduras becoming completely unbalanced when he gets out of it? Do you think he should naively go forward when there's a tactically responsible position he has to keep? How do you think Pulisic had the space he had? Why didn't Dempsey have to drop back to encourage possession like he normally does? Why didn't Altidore look exhausted as the hold up guy? Why did Villafaña look so assured? 100% credit to all these guys as individuals, but look at the subtleties of the game and you'll find Darlington Nagbe knitting all those things together.
Exactamundo. I can't believe I just saw a poster state to bench Nagbe in favor of Bedoya. How many times have we seen Jones, Bradley and Bedoya out there against decent-to-good competition and we look disjointed and lose the possession game? A bunch. We have better options now, one of whom is Nagbe.
Nagbe is alot like Claudio Reyna...his technical skills suggest the promise of so much more but he just isn't wired to deliver the end product. There is a subtlety to his game, though, that is very valuable and prized by Bruce Arena and should be by supporters as well. One of the things I remember Bruce emphasizing upon his rehire was the need to establish more technical control/better passing ability in the midfield...hence Lletget getting the start along with Pulisic and Nagbe. For this reason alone, I think he probably sees Bradley and Jones as incompatible though he may choose to bite the bullet on Tuesday due to the overall injury situation.
I really don't have any expectations for Nagbe. I've encountered a lot of fellow supporters be quite overzealous in their estimations of him. Personally, he just hasn't met those expectations set by his admirers. I said elsewhere that I am looking forward to seeing more from him because he does have good qualities. In this match, I took issue with people implying ignorance of anyone who didn't think he was really special or overly effective. He didn't give the ball away often and he's comfortable moving it around which is great. At some point, we will need more in the left attacking part of the field and that's my number one concern when we put up 6 goals. I think that is a fair evaluation.
The problem, after rereading it, I was writing it late after viewing the game 1.5 more times. IT sounds a little like I'm ragging on him which isn't my intention really. There were a lot o f players expressing themselves on the pitch and I was disappointed not to see Nagbe really make an impact in the attacking third. I definitely don't have all the answers and look forward to seeing more. Which, luckily, is the first time I've been able to say that about the pool in awhile .
Just about anything that Bedoya can do, Jones can do better. (EDIT: Oops, did I really say Nagbe? Brain fart.)
I agree that's fair. It's good to have a player like him as an option. We also have Fabian Johnson. We also can invert Pulisic on the left if Bobby Wood plays and Dempsey goes middle. I think a lot of people would agree Nagbe often disappoints for Portland. But I don't think he disappointed on Friday, and I think in a specific, defined role like Bruce put him in he can be really fantastic for us internationally.
He played an ok game, but nothing special. I like what he brings but is too passive. I rewatched the first 26 minutes too and he had some nice moments and I saw a few moments that I think he could have done better or made a better decision. I'll watch more later, but think he became more passive as the game wore. Again, he played fine but when every other midfielder scored and/or assisted just circulating the ball might not be enough to get the start in the next game when a key player is returning. Almost all of the positives were when he moved inside, ran with the ball or moved the ball very quickly... 2:10 nice diagonal run with ball 8:15 cuts inside plays to Bradley, receives back from Lletget plays out wide to pulisic 12:35 nice cross field pass 18:50 accelerates forward and tries to play one-two with Pulisic, but doesn't get pass back 19:10 nice ball wide and provided nice support and receives ball back 19:30 calm on the ball and plays nice square ball to Bradley 23:35 put heavy pressure on defender and wins throw in Moments that could have been better were when he was more tentative and very safe. 7:40 plays ball out of bounds (not sure how this isn't an incomplete pass) 8:35 doesn't show for ball and Bradleys pass is intercepted. 12:40 receives ball centrally and passes back to central defender instead of switching to wide open Bradley 15:10 gets caught in trap and is forced to play back to villafana 19:15 unececessarily plays ball all the way back to Howard who has to clear it... he is deeper on this one so playing safe has merits but looks to have enough time to open up and play ball to Bradley.