US men, women going opposite direction

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by Namdynamo, Feb 3, 2008.

  1. Namdynamo

    Namdynamo Member+

    Jan 1, 2005

    ...while the men’s game in the United States continues to progress, the women’s game is not going in the right direction.

    Jorgensen noted that the women’s game was a “beautiful game” in the 1990’s, but it has since digressed. He feels that women are trying too hard to replicate the physicality found in the men’s game, which is actually taking away from the appeal of their creativity. Men in the United States are developing into more technical players, while women have shifted to a mentality too focused on winning...

    ...the men’s game has recovered from that a bit with their progressive style, the women’s game is now being hurt by it. As evidenced by the last two Women’s World Cups, Jorgensen said that the rest of the world is catching up, with the athleticism of American players being the only thing giving them the current edge. This athleticism is something that will continue to progress in other countries, and leave the United States in the rear view mirror...
  2. BlitzSpiele

    BlitzSpiele Member

    Sep 7, 2007
    Give me a frickin' break. One could argue the USMNT does not focus enough on winning with the WC rolls around (especially when its held in Europe).
  3. htide

    htide Member

    Jul 28, 2007
    in terms of their technical game, i do not think the us men are even the slightest bit closer to closing the gap. I was in france during the last world cup and it was really interesting talking to my french friends about their perspective on the US mens game. They ALL said the us mens team has no technique. The interesting thing is they said they seem to do better then one would expect because they play well as a team. However I think that has more to do with the fact that they play together a lot more, because even under the mls schedule they still train together far more often then the euro national teams.

    As for the womens team, the technique is there and i think the sudden change in playing style under a new coach shows that. The us women are always going to be a top team. I honestly do not think the us men can ever sustain a top international position because unlike the rest of the world, our best male atheletes are weeded out by football, basketball and baseball. Unless that changes, i think all the training, development, etc. will be in vein.
  4. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    that's more than a year, a coach, a few retirements, and a new team ago. the usmnt does have technique. not brazilian technique (who does), but ussoccer is still in it's infancy, and it's getting better all the time. so a year is a lifetime in terms of team evolution.

    but it is true, and i as well as others said it long before this jorgensen interview, that the rest of the world is catching up, and may have a better chance than we do of getting their best athletes in the game (our best female athletes are in track and field and basketball). that will make us perpetual silver and bronze medalists (if not lower) if we are not careful.
  5. JanBalk

    JanBalk Member+

    Jun 9, 2004
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Nat'l Team:
    Unlike on the men's side not many nations get their top atheltes on the female side into soccer, so with the big poulation advantage (in pure number) US have to all other nation on the womens side (except China) that shouldn't be a problem.
    The tactics is a different story, I do believe Pia is on the right track. USWNT had for a while been relaying on just their better fittness.
  6. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    what i was saying is that they have a chance to get their best female athletes into the game as women's soccer becomes more popular, and women begin to see it as a career. the uswnt will then be at a disadvantage because basketball pays better money and gets better athletes.

    as has been discussed here before, demographics has much less effect on soccer power than culture (see holland). we have the demographics, they have the culture. chalk up the advantage to them.
  7. JanBalk

    JanBalk Member+

    Jun 9, 2004
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Nat'l Team:
    And what I am saying is that the same disadvantage exists in pretty much all of the competition, because popular sports in the rest of the world in many cases pays better for women than Soccer.

    And they have a cultural that Soccer is a game for men (in all of Latin America and most of Europe), that more than enough compensate the cultural advantage. And we are back to your demographical advantage.
  8. Dom. FC

    Dom. FC Member+

    May 10, 2004
    Central US
    Sorry to inject information into a well reasoned point but only 10 of the 22 players going to Houston for the USMNT match with Mexico this Wednesday are playing in MLS, two notable exclusions (Johnson - recent transfer, and Beasley - injured) are also not playing in MLS. Others, e.g. Altidore, Guzan, Edu, will likely not be completing their careers in the domestic league. Also 2/5 of the domestic players on the roster (Moor?, Parkhurst?, Davis?, Holden?) may be 'fill' (practice players) for this match and have better possible replacements (mostly abroad) that were not called for this match due to injuries etc.

    To answer your somewhat incorrect generality with one of my own (probably also incorrect ;>) ). I think the key difference between the men and the women at this point in time is that in the women's game there are maybe 10 or 12 'top' teams (on a good day) and it drops off rapidly from there. In the men's game at any given World Cup there are probably more like +/- two dozen 'top' teams with a chance to win it all.

    Now I know this forum is a 'tough room' so let me be clear that I do not intend any of that as sexism or excuse making but rather (imo) empirically observable. Unfortunately most of the world doesn't regard their women athletes as well as we do (and we still need improvements) hence only a few top teams. In the men's side we're not just a little home-schooled team trying to compete with all of the post-secondary powers, we're getting educated too. The problem is we face teams with incredible depths of tradition and at least in some cases better domestic leagues. All that aside for the Men's WC in 2010 we may actually break into those top two dozen that going in have some chance to win it all. Conversely for the fast approaching Olympics the USA's Women are not just one of the (limited number of) top teams, they are expected to win gold.

    Roster (scroll down):
  9. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    This argument has been talked to death on the men's side, but I'll insert my two cents here too. The body types that lead to success in soccer and basketball are different. Basketball rewards height, soccer rewards a low center of gravity that can change direction quickly. Taller athletes (men and women) don't have the lateral quickness that shorter athletes do (see Gooch). So if women's soccer is losing potential players to the WNBA, it is the guards (not the centers and forwards) they are losing. Having said that I'm not sure the WNBA is going to pay significantly better than the new women's league will and the top women's soccer players certainly seem to have more commercial endorsement opportunities.
  10. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    i understand the point you're making. i just have some disagreement with it. so we probably have to agree to disagree. my thinking is that the u.s. already has a positive view of women soccer players and as such has very good women athletes playing the game. other countries have already begun changing their view of women's soccer and so are now beginning to get their better athletes in the game. if they begin paying them to play (which we are already doing) they will get even better athletes in the game.

    as i've mentioned above, that view is changing slowly but surely. add that to the fact that they have an innate sense of how to play the game and the demographics will have the same effect as it has on the men's game at the top - little or none.

    it's exactly those guards and some of those forwards that i'm talking about. unbelievably quick, fast, shifty. the kinds of body types that can be female ronaldos - impossible to stop.

    your commercial endorsement point is well taken. but only a very few soccer players get those commercials. and i will be very surprised if the new women's league pays anything close to the wnba salaries. not if they want to survive this time around. even third round wnba picks made more than $30k for their first year in 2007. if the new wpsl tried anything close to that they'll fold after the first few weeks. even mls doesn't pay that.
  11. htide

    htide Member

    Jul 28, 2007
    i have to agree with luv that the womens team isnt going to pay close to what the women make in the wnba. Because unlike mls the NBA has lots of money. The NBA (at least right now) is committed to the wnba and is thus willing to carry the league even though i doubt they could ever bring in enough revenue on their own to supplement the costs of the league( at least right now). Basically its the nba thats shelling out money because they want to and can. MLS is struggling enough as it is to be of any real help in terms of income and thus the womens league is going to carry the burden of coming up with much of the revenue on their own. If this thing takes off and they are self sustained ten years down the line, who knows, but right now, speaking financially, an athelete out of high school who is contemplating soccer versus basketball on the basis of what they can live off of, is probably inclined to go wnba.
  12. JML11

    JML11 Member

    Dec 1, 2007

    Excellent point which raises the following question:

    Why are there a plethora of male soccer players that are 5'10 to 6'1 and have very low centers of gravity and are extremely agile (EX. Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and C.Ronaldo) and women soccer players at these heights are not?

    I have assumed that it is because of physiological differences. Can anyone conclusively confirm this?

    Whatever league pays more is irrelevant because the earning potential is so low in both sports that it doesn’t persuade any females to choose one over the other.

    By demographics I think you mean population and by culture I think you mean youth development.

    Plenty of countries have culture that are not great soccer nations (EX: Ukraine, Ireland, Scotland, ect..)., While Holland is the only country with a small population and Excellent development.

    Population is still very important. In the modern game, the only countries that have won a Men’s world cup are those with both great youth development and a large population (Brazil, Germany, Italy, Argentina and France)

    While the technique gap between the US MNT and the top MNT’s is still very large it has been closed by a considerable amount. The US WNT only has good technique in comparison to other WNT teams and the technique gap has been significantly closed between the US WNT and other WNT’s.

    For US Soccer it is a numbers game. Our coaching and player development lag far behind the rest of the world. This is why the MNT has improved as the amount of Males that play soccer in the US in comparison to the rest of the world has increased while the WNT gone downhill as the amount of females that play soccer in the US has decreased.
  13. madnetic redded

    madnetic redded Red Card

    Nov 4, 2007
    What opposite direction? what has the usmnt done other than beat mexico in their home with their refs in friendlys? NOTHING lol. USWMNT< usmnt serioiusly lol.
  14. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    are you kidding me? if you don't want to go the 9 to 5 route as a female athlete you'd definitely choose basketball over soccer. good basketball players can make $80k+ playing in the wnba, and then go overseas and make another $350k more - as sue bird did last year. and she was not even the highest earner.

    no, i mean the almost indescribable sense of how to play the game. i mean the ability of brazil to almost completely ignore the women's team and then throw them together a few weeks before the wwc and make the finals. that's what i mean by culture. nothing about youth development.

    czech republic, croatia, portugal - top soccer playing countries with small populations but with a lot of soccer culture. there are a lot of countries with a lot bigger populations and youth development who are not as good.
  15. JML11

    JML11 Member

    Dec 1, 2007
    Czech Republic: 1 world cup out of a possible three where they have never been passed the group stage and two solid Euro Performances. This hardly makes them a top country.

    Croatia: One third place World cup finish, twice eliminated in the group stage and 1 quarter final Euro performance, Croatia will also occasionally steal a player from another country like Eduardo

    You can't really say that these are top soccer playing nations.

    Portugal is also very streaky. They have had a very good past 10 years starting with their golden generation but it will be interesting to see if they can stay on top (It also helps that they steal players such as Deco)
  16. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    With the possible exception of Brazil and Argentina, who develop more players than they need, everybody steals players.
  17. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Sporting Kansas City
    This article is sooooo 2004.
  18. JML11

    JML11 Member

    Dec 1, 2007
    Not true, Spain (Although they did try to get Messi but then again Messi lived their since he was 13), England, Holland, Germany don't steal players.
  19. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    There has been an open discussion in England of possibly capping Arteta and Reina when they become eligible for citizenship, if they aren't capped by Spain first. They also would have capped Giggs if he hadn't committed himself to Wales and they have capped Owen Hargreaves who was born in Canada. Holland, like France, has benefited from dual citizenship of players from former Colonies. Edgar Davids and Clarence Seeddorf, both of whom were born in Suriname are the best examples and though he was born in Holland, Patrick Kluivert's father was also from Suriname. With respect to Germany, I don't have any good examples, but I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't picked up a Polish or Austrian player or two in the past.
  20. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I knew Spain had picked up an Argentine in the 1950/60 era, but I couldn't remember who it was. I had to do a little research to find it, but di Stafano played for Spain.

    We are however, drifting slightly off topic for a thread in the Women's forum.
  21. Morris20

    Morris20 Member

    Jul 4, 2000
    Upper 90 of nowhere
    Washington Freedom
    umm . . . Lukas Podolski?? (and of course Steffi Jones was the daughter of an American serviceman)
  22. suncraver03

    suncraver03 New Member

    Oct 3, 2003
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank you, Andy, for finally saying what should have been the second post of this thread. The WNT team played one horrible game in four years, it just happened to be against Brazil, a team that they had beaten handily just a few months earlier. I'm sure most of us could agree that a large part of the problem was the coach not having them ready. Players play the style the coach tells them to.

    The coach's confidence level also rubs off on the team...anyone else remember the huge nervous sighs Greg Ryan was caught giving on the JumboTron? I don't think they had a huge physical problem in the WC, they played scared.
  23. Timon19

    Timon19 Member+

    Jun 2, 2007
    Akron, OH
    Piotr Trochowski
    Jermaine Jones (sorta)
    Kevin Kurányi
    Oliver Neuville

    Clarence Seedorf
    Khalid Boulahrouz (sorta)
    Romeo Castelen
    Andwélé Slory


    Mariano Andrés Pernía
    Marcos Senna

    Aside from that, you're absolutely right.
  24. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    the czech republic is almost universally acknowledged to be a top soccer playing country. plus even if you disagree with the fifa rankings, they don't get ranked in the top 15 in the world continually just because they win occasionally. in fact they are currently ranked 6th, above france whose population and youth development is way ahead of theirs.

    see above posts. plus, currently ranked 10th, once again playing way over their demographic and youth development heads.

    again, see above posts. plus eusebio's team was more than 10 years ago. and i'm sure i'm not remembering half of their players and good teams. they are not any more streaky than many of the world's other top teams.
  25. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey guys, do this on some other thread.

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