Ukraine Football (and the inevitable stream-of-conscienseness NSR)

Wikipedia contained the same numbers as any other half-serious publication on these. I was not discovering America. Mind you, your intelligence levels probably prevent you from comprehending a simple set of numbers.

 

First of all, Werth quotes the numbers of T-34s and KVs that are nearly identical to those of Liddell Hart, whom you dismiss as being out of date. These brand new tanks arriving at the military districts in the period just before June 1941 are not particularly likely not to be in working order, like the BTs and the T-26s. Secondly, did you ever bother asking yourself as to why only 27% percent of the light tanks were in operational order (eventually, the ones in working or not working order are mentioned in the Russian losses for the battles in the West). Did it ever occur to you that they could be in the process of an overhaul for bigger and better things. A family acquantance of ours (you see, the war was a much closer to home issue for anyone growing up in the Soviet Union than for someone growing up in the States and my grandfathers were all military men) was a junior officer in the airforce in the West just before the start of hostilities and he stated that aircraft were being moved to forward airfields in the weeks before June 22 and three weeks before the German attack all the Air Armies in his area had their aircraft being overhauled and prepared for action - this process was incomplete by the start of the German attack and a large proportion of the planes were not battle-ready and thus the losses suffered were ridiculous - the process was supposed to finish by mid-July. Similar things, he says, were going on with the armoured formations. This is just an example. The documents coming to light in the early nineties (these were not available to Clark, writing in mid-90s) give even more weight to the offensive deployment of the Soviet forces in the West - something that can be seen even if one just takes a step back and looks at the effing map. There is the famous secret speech by Stalin on 5 May 1941 saying a war is imminent and a directive he signed on 15 May 1941, finalising the final parts of the preparations. Even your beloved Vokogonov mentions plans for an offensive on the Germans in his book on Stalin but goes into no detail.

To suggest that the Soviet Army was not ready/obsolete/rubbish/blah-blah-blah is absolutely ridiculous. This is the same army that annihilated the Nips at Khalkhin Gol, the same army that learnt extremely (if costly) lessons in Finland which led it to being actually prepared for a war in winter conditions, for example - an excuse that some historian use for Germans being defeated by "General Winter" is just plain old stupid - the Russian army was in no way naturally predisposed to fight in winter but it learnt lessons in Finland that a lot of observers (including German) ignored.

RE: Glanz's comment.

Yes, muzzle velocity is important. Where did I deny that? BUT WHERE ARE YOUR STATS ON THE 20MM GUN OF PZKW MARK II??? WHERE??? He also mentions that Mark III/IV were better than T-26 - where did I deny that? Also, MOST = between 50.01% and 99.99% and even then "equipped" is not the same thing as "fully equipped". Nowhere did I say that Mark II's were the main equipment of the Panzer formations, there were also Mark Is and the Czech models, which did not measure up to the MArk IIIs and IVs - in fact, I mention that the number of German medium tanks was roughly equivalent to that of the T34s and KVs available. Of course, the deployment made a bit of a difference, you fool. Who is denying that?

As for the preponderance of MArk IIIs, I am just gonna dig up some numbers that make up the German battle strength of 3300-3600 tanks at the start of Barbarossa.

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ADMITTED THAT YOU WERE TALKING UTTER CR8P WHEN REFERRING TO THE NUMBER OF ARTILLERY BT7s AS PART OF THE TOTAL BT7s POPULATION.

It is hard to treat your regurgitation of information with anything other than contempt.

 

Uhmmmmmmmmmmmm :

Can we like ... have a poll - who's right and who's wrong on this marvelous quest for Soviet preparadness for Nazis in '41 and be done mit it once and for all?

No thread reading required.


My vote's mit "Z" - simply 'cause he has never insulted someone else's team, oh.. and cause... , no that's really it.

 

You have just complete sat on your own argument, oh one not very bright American - which army in its right mind would do that? The Soviet Army was preparing itself and got caught right in the middle of its preparations - the most vulnerable time. It was not "ready 100%" per se in that particular moment in time but it certainly the wheels were on motion as the swiftness of mobilisations shows. You did not serve in that army and how many of those who served in it have you come across living in across the ocean, basing your "knowledge" upon the "popular" history books. For example, from historical point of view my mates at Oxford who studied history would not touch Beevor with a bargepole as it is written for your average man in the street, not for any serious study of history.

By the way, the numbers for the Barbarossa tanks from the most detailed source I found so far is:

Mk 1 - 410,
Mk II - 746,
SdKfz265 - 141,
35t - about 200,
38t - 664,
Mk III - about 1000,
Mk IV - 439
giving a grand total of about 3600.

On that note, I leave you to your bullsh8t, popular literature and the wonderfully exact quantitative terms such as "most", as well as your hordes of artillery BT-7s and the all-powerful 20mm gun. It is nice to see that Zenit "fans" embarrassing themselves in all fields...

 

You have a kind heart, old Jew, so I understand that you are feeling sorry for that imbecile...

 

Oxford - best place to study history in the UK and actually one of the tutors in our college wrote the first significant Western book on General Vlasov.

 

Where did I say that the German army was mostly made up of Mark IIs? A quote, please.

As for the BT7As, should I provide your quote once again or have you been embarrassed enough, my thick American friend? Sorry, what was the number of BT7As, again?

 

Sure, he does.

 

I knew 2 Oxford graduates - 1 American - Rhodes scholar - couldn't meet a nicer, humbler and down to earth fellow, mit a sense of humour to boot.
The other one - pompous, stuck up Brit fin de alter gelt, ran a large company selling crappy product - I refused to deal mit him , which somehow convinced him that he was my best friend - couldn't freakin' avoid him.
One evening mitout any prompting he sits next to me at a fancy, schmancy bar and starts confessing (at least he was gassed) to most shocking acts of sexual deviancy , thank goodness I recognized someone and got away.


Hmmm, whose dorm RS stayed at ???

 

Dorm??? We never used such terms as a "dorm".

As for sexual deviancy - hmmm... the gay part of student comunity became much more noticeable, for shure.

As for basing your "knowledge" of Oxford graduate upon a population of 2 - well, I never thought Jews would be that silly.

 

I stated that not all tanks available to the Germans were medium tanks - far from it. In fact, as has been shown, less than 1,500 out of 3600 were medium tanks - the Skoda 38(t)s were hardly the medium tanks in the Pzkw Mk III mould, whereas you bang on about "preponderance" of Mark IIIs, which is just simply not true.

I then went on to say that when it came to the (German Medium Tanks) : (Soviet Medium and Heavy Tanks) ratio, it was around one. From the numbers I gave above, I see no inconsistency in my statements. You, obviously, seem to encounter great difficulty when it comes to reading comprehension.

 

The "Mr. Oxford" bit is a typical sign of Mr. Village partaking in the conversation.

 

No way am I voting for Zenit, dont forget he is American and thereby THE ENEMY... but wait, RS is jewish... bleh, oh help me my Soviet communist ideals in choosing the better of these two evils!

 

Just pick on the Ukrainian instead....

 

....who comes from Ukraine.