UEFA Competitions 2023-2024 Referee Discussions [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 23, 2023.

  1. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    Couldn’t help but chuckle but I don’t think Griezmann’s shin guard gives much protection. IMG_3638.jpeg
     
  2. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    This seems overly simplistic, following Hummels' reasoning: "I go in for the tackle, I clearly get to the ball first, I change its course and then I make minimal contact. But this is football, I am sorry, zero penalty."

    I think getting to the ball first is important. If you don't, wiping out an opponent in the area is a PK.

    But is getting to the ball first sufficient (to avoid a foul/PK)? In my opinion, no, Hummels' circular hand motions notwithstanding. And if not, you have to look at the follow-through.

    Tillman doesn't have to be injured to draw a foul, he's allowed to protect himself (and get out of the way). You have to look at the angle of the challenge, its recklessness, its likelihood of causing injury.

    What surprised me is that the referee wasn't called over to take a second look. He may have thought in real time that Hummels did not get the ball, or (more likely) that Hummels' challenge was more violent than it was.

    Can the referee communicate that he wants to take another look? Or must he be asked to go and take another look?

    Circling back, many players seem to express the attitude that getting to the ball first absolves them of whatever happens next. It doesn't.
     
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  3. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    Really unimpressed with Serdar Gozubuyuk performance in Porto vs Arsenal..I understand I may be biased, but it definitely felt like the game was start stop, felt like every touch was given as a foul. Stats show 36 fouls called between the two teams. It was not a dirty game at all. Ball was only in play for 51.9% of the time according to the stats as well. Just did not feel like it was called at the same level other professional games get called at that level.

    Again, I recognize the bias I may have in this.
     
  4. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    He just isn’t very good.
     
  5. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    In PSV-Dortmund, the expected decision is no penalty imho. It's not a clear-cut foul. PSV-players were visibly laughing and so did their captain after the game. I can understand why Jovanović whistled it live though, based on his position. More interesting: can VAR send it down for an OFR?
     
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  6. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought he was poor but obviously I'm biased as well. I'll add, he wasn't the reason Arsenal lost---we were not good on the day. But he seemed to really buy into every Porto tumble and scream. The match was one of the worst start-stop-start-stop in the CL this season.
     
  7. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands

    It’s a fair point. For me as a neutral viewer, Porto-Arsenal was dreadful to watch and Gözübüyük contributed to that. He’s always been a poor and hesitating referee. As of last season, he’s been working with Björn Kuipers' AR, who is making him look less poor. But he’s still poor. Gözübüyük wants EURO and therefore it seems he adapted his style to a strict and a bit too ‘safe’ line. The fact that he is working with Zeinstra and Van Boekel - both have a friend in the Refcom - will probably bring him to the EURO. Whether that would be deserved: I rest my case. 1 or 2 GS games and bust.
     
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  8. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    #433 Orangebarista, Mar 3, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2024
    This weekend I had a discussion with a mate about the UEFA final candidates 2024. This year, in particular the UEFA Champions League final seems more unclear than ever imo.

    Anthony Taylor, 45 y.o., could have the political advantage as the Champions League final is hosted at Wembley. Taylor is dependent on English teams and hasn’t refereed any Italian teams since his Europa League final, yet. Furthermore, the main concern could be his form level.

    Secondly, Slavko Vinčić. 44 y.o. and he will blow the whistle in München next Tuesday. Just returned from an injury. Obviously has a lot of political support from Čeferin and Šajn. Moreover, he has the advantage that he is fully neutral and can referee all teams in competition. I don’t recall many controversial incidents. However, is he really thát good? In Lazio-Milan, PSG-AC Milan or Inter-Barcelona, he didn’t convince most of us. Just seems to miss that X-Factor in topgames. Is he a safe pair of hands when it really matters? The gap between Vinčić and Orsato + Marciniak is massive IMO. Not just considering their authority and personality on the pitch, but also their technical accuracy.

    And then Makkelie, 41 y.o. He will be dependent on PSG, among other things. He didn’t reach his top level last season. I heard from second hand that he had been injured since the World Cup, but didn’t take a rest. An injured Makkelie is ~60-70% of his normal level. Clearly visible in Sevilla-Juventus... He could barely run. Last fall, he was approaching his top form again. The appointment in Newcastle-AC Milan was a direct result of that. Makkelie in form has the ability and personality to do very well in topgames. Although it is still unclear how UEFA rates him atm. In my opinion Rosetti uses him as "a Cakir"; let’s say, a sort of firefighter in sacrificial games. Coincidentally, both Makkelie and Cakir were coached by Jaap Uilenberg, but that aside :). In 2024, I think Makkelie has started 'mediocre'. Not as good as last fall. On his Instagram page you can see that he ran the UEFA fitness test last Monday, while his colleagues did this (I assume?) in Cyprus. Makes me wonder whether he’s carrying an injury again.

    And finally, Kovacs, 39 y.o.Too inconsistent imo, Porto-Shakthar was examplary of that. Moreover, Kovacs belongs to that pool of referees to always officiate a 1st leg, which are considered less difficult, less tense, players behave better and so on. Kovacs’ last return match was in 2021. Given his age and the way he’s been used, he first will be in the running for the Europa League final I guess?

    In short, I can find arguments for all referees why they are not possible in a CL-final. Therefore, it wouldn't surprise me if they eventually have to give the CL-final to someone who already refereed it.
     
  9. Dayton Ref

    Dayton Ref Member+

    May 3, 2012
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    33' BAY v LAZ the referee slips and gets hit with a ball just outside of the PA. That should make the rest of us feel better
     
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  10. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah I felt that one.
     
  11. Tigerpunk

    Tigerpunk Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    That had to have been the quickest offside var review in history
     
  12. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    One of us, one of us!
     
  13. Brilliant Oranje

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Mar 4, 2023
    Amsterdam and Marbella
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    AremRed repped this.
  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not just a big decision for the tie either. Germany and England are likely fighting for the final additional CL spot next season and the winner of this tie could be huge for who gets in for 5th place.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    State media weighs in:



    Well, actually it's very clear he's annoyed he doesn't have the same silly stenographic access that he has with PGMOL. So "state media" is misplaced here.

    All that said, I think he's right on the reason it was rejected. But... surely having two arms up in the air like that unnaturally negates the clause, no? I guess not, given the result here.

    It's all so stupid. That's a penalty if the opponent kicks it but not if the defender kicks it? Why? The ball is going straight up in the air anyway. Either it never should be a penalty because it's accidental and there's no real consequence OR it should always be a penalty because the arms should never be up like that and if you take a risk playing stupid games, you win stupid prizes. Pick one, IFAB/FIFA, et al. Parsing it over who last kicked the ball results in a farce like this, where two very qualified elite UEFA referees differ on a game-deciding decision.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Arsenal : Porto - TURPIN (FRA)
    Barcelona : Napoli - MAKKELIE (NED)

    Atletico Madrid : Inter - MARCINIAK (POL)
    Dortmund : PSV - ORSATO (ITA)

    One could say the big guns are out this week in the UCL.
     
  19. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    As soon as the draw was completed, we all knew that Marciniak would referee that game, didn’t we?

    It is kind of worrying(?) they don’t have an alternative.
     
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  20. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    I don't think they are bad appointments but imagining that ≥ 2 referees have a disaster for whatever reason this week, then UEFA are in quite big trouble for the remaining rounds. Okay, with VAR that is much less likely than it used to be, but still.
     
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  21. Orangebarista

    Orangebarista Member

    Feb 22, 2024
    Netherlands
    Indeed, and I’m not sure they really HAD to appoint Turpin and Orsato this round.
    There will be at least 7 high profile teams in QF. Three top clashes expected and the QF that involves PSV/Dortmund will be the “easiest” one on paper.

    Marciniak is #1 firefighter for sacrificial games, it seems. Imagine he has a tough game this week and PSG draws Atletico/Real/Inter in the QF’s. Ouch. UEFA will regret the appointment strategy.

    I also considered the possibility that PSG plays the final against an English team (Taylor/Makkelie out) and Vincic not available for whatever reason. No final candidates left. I foresee a serious problem then :D
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a nightmare scenario, isn't it?

    No one from Germany, Italy or Spain is ready. Letexier is the top remaining referee from a "big" nation who hasn't done it and he's out. And it's slim pickings in central and eastern Europe after (and maybe including?) Vincic.

    Kovacs is it at that point, right? And that's rather dicey.
     
  23. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    A lot of glass ceilings and "unwritten rules" have been broken over the past couple of years (i.e. doing CL semi-final and Final, WWC semi-final and Final, etc.).

    I wonder if/when will someone get a second CL Final?

    PSG vs. Man City screams for Orsato and/or Marciniak.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe. The more I think about it, the more I realize it would probably default to Zwayer, though. He's been around so not a newer name like with Italy or Spain. He's back to being Germany's #1. Right place, right time, and all that.

    I don't see UEFA passing up an experienced German who is likely going to EURO 2024 to give Orsato or Marciniak the match twice. But it might be tempting.
     
  25. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    Orsato also did the final during Covid, with no attendance. While UEFA is not the FA, the FA did use that as an excuse to give the 2020 FA Cup Final referee a chance to "do the full experience right" - it may work as a "one-off excuse" this time for Orsato.
     

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