UEFA Competitions 2023-2024 Referee Discussions [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 23, 2023.

  1. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Same

    I wasn’t advocating whatsoever for multiple refs with multiple whistles on the field. Was Just asking why soccer doesn’t accept the projected multiple whistle issues that all the other multiple whistle sports have accepted (differing opinions, dissenting to ref 1 for ref 2’s call, conferencing for a no man’s land call, ref 1 calling something in ref 2’s “area”) and prefer to have one person running everything. It’s interesting to know that they have actually tried this and it was a complete disaster, so clearly soccer’s culture just doesn’t want it.
     
  2. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it would probably be more successful now (or at least less of a failure. There's a much better culture of working together on the field and allowing the AR to make major calls. Of course comms have helped with this a lot.

    But here's the bigger problem. You know the whole "we don't have enough refs" thing? Let's just take England. Tomorrow IFAB snaps their finger and the 2 ref, 2 AR system is approved for next season. So now every pro and semi-pro match needs an additional referee across at least six levels of the pyramid. So now the junior ref in League 1/2 was a National League ref this season. Supply league ref is now in the National League and so on...

    Oh yeah and now lets say The Championship adds VAR eventually. There's another ref and assistant gone for 12 matches a weekend.

    I suppose you could have the 4th official become the 2nd on field ref. In an era where bench behavior is near the top of IFABs list of things to address that would be a hilarious outcome.
     
  3. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Was it the then-UEFA Cup that had the AAR experiment?
     
  4. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Still in the laws - I don't know of any leagues that use them but it's still in there
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It wasn’t really an experiment. UEFA adopted them as an integral part of the officiating team for all major/senior men’s competitions. They were at both EURO 12 and 16. And every UCL season from 09 through 17 +/- a year.

    Oh and they spread to Brazil and elsewhere. FIFA resisting them for WC14 was actually pretty impressive in retrospect. It VAR wasn’t on the table for WC18 I’m sure you would have seen AARs by then.
     
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  6. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    2016 Copa Libertadores final, the last Asian Cup... not with great success in either case to be honest.
     
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  7. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I wouldn’t expect 2 whistles with 2 AR’s to filter down very far. But if you can have one R with no AR’s and can have 2 Rs with 2 ARs, then it would seem you cajole also just have 2 Rs . . .
     
  8. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Any news on the assignments for MD6?

    Curious to see if Marciniak and/or his VAR get assignments after what happened in MD5....
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's not working Tuesday. I don't think he'll work Wednesday. He can't go in Group E or F. And he's not needed in Group G. The only match he could get is the big Porto-Shakhtar one and Shakhtar just had a Polish referee in MD5 (which isn't everything, but when you're talking about one big match and you can use any of your top guns... Marciniak just doesn't seem to fit there).

    But, again, he's already worked MD2, 4 and 5. The top referees usually get 3 matches with the bigger names sometimes getting 4. And it's quite rare for anyone to work 4-5-6 (Marciniak, oddly enough, being one of the two exceptions last year). Marciniak not being on MD6 doesn't say anything because everything sort of looks like he was never supposed to be on MD6.

    Marciniak isn't going to be thrown overboard for one penalty decision. The VAR in question was back in action that Thursday. Given the chaos that was handball around MD5, I think you're more likely to see an attempted recalibration heading into the KO stages than punishment against some of your top officials for confusion that UEFA has helped cause.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is probably worth noting, however, that Espen Eskas has Manchester United v Bayern.

    I know Man United are down right now, but they are still one of the biggest clubs in the world, at home, with a must-win match against Bayern and they get a relatively inexperienced Norwegian referee instead of a huge name (I mean, Orsato has the other game in this group!). Both weird AND a huge vote of confidence for Eskas, who I haven't seen yet. He is just coming back from doing the U17 WC Final.
     
  11. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would imagine that if UEFA finds a non-Big 5/Big 6 (I'll include the Netherlands here) country referee with high potential that they would move mountains to get that referee in a position where they see if they can make it work. It's the Marciniak effect where UEFA knows they have a top referee with zero country neutrality issues.
     
  12. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Marciniak is in Saudi Arabia for the Club WC and therefore won't appear in MD6.
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh right!

    Which would, of course, be a main reason why UEFA planned for him to have a big MD5 match.
     
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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems worth noting the following appointments for Wednesday:

    Dortmund : PSG - NYBERG (SWE)
    Newcastle : Milan - MAKKELIE (NED)
    Porto : Shakhtar - KOVACS (ROU)

    The Kovacs appointment is pretty massive and probably should be acknowledged insofar as a potential race for the Final goes.

    Nyberg is quite interesting. It was already clear he supplanted Ekberg but this seems to confirm both that he's going to EURO 2024 and there are probably big plans for him this season in the club KO stages.

    And Makkelie's appointment belies the argument that he's somehow been seriously sidelined as a top official. I suppose it's possible he's more of a Cakir at the moment, where he's a trusted/sacrificial lamb for the toughest matches. But that's still something.
     
  15. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Nyberg only 31' in but he's been fantastic.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Amazing.

    On one hand, you have to fault the AR for even having offside their initially. It's such a bad miss. How do you have offside there?

    On the other hand, I think this falls on the referee. The AR must have been telling him "delay, delay, delay," and then the referee must have said put the flag up only to change his mind.

    7 years in and elite referees/ARs still don't have a consensus of when to do delay and when not.

    Honestly, on this one, I think you have to put the flag up.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One of the best parts about this… are we sure the goal scorer was onside? I assume his lead arm is not ahead of the ball. And I assume they checked. But it’s closer than “yeah this is obviously on because the flag was atrocious.”

    I actually wonder how MLS would handle it given the subjectivity of offside review. If onfield decision is no goal… yeah the actual flag is clearly and obviously wrong. But what’s then the standard for assessing the second potential offside where a decision was never made. Does it default to onside or is offside still controlling? This seems like a very realistic scenario so hopefully PRO has instructions on this.

    But to this particular play I’m not even sure what to believe or what happened. Did the AR completely lose his thought process and put the flag up even though he said delay? I guess that’s most likely? Or did Kovacs go rogue on his own and say it needed a delay? Or did the AR change his mind one way or the other during it all?

    I do like how Kovacs gives the caution to the coach before the final adjudication.

    Two other thoughts.

    First, robot AR doesn’t get this wrong.

    Second, Kovacs crew is probably out of a potential final after this right? There are very few mistakes a crew can make that creates VAR problems than the other way around. And they found one of them. With such fine margins for picking your final referees I’m not sure how this isn’t a massive strike against them given the match and the nature of the mistake.
     
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  19. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    You're could be right, but are we sure he's done. It is pretty bad, but Porto ended up winning comfortably anyways so it didn't affect the result per se.

    Final candidates have survived far worse (see last year) so I doubt a premature offside delay flag in a group stage match that didn't eliminate a team should finish you for the Final unless the aggrieved team was PSG...
     
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  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you talking about the off-field issue for Marciniak last year or was there something onfield I’m forgetting?

    Because, if it’s the off-field…

    A) he was already the named final referee and
    B) that’s different

    This is one of those unacceptable mistakes by either an AR or referee. I mean Makkelie was held to account for performance in Sevilla v Juventus. This seems to be in that ballpark and it’s not like Kovacs was a clear top pick anyway. If merit matters, others are going to be ahead of him.
     
  21. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hmm, I'd say an affirmative offside decision being impossible to make on the field, the de facto call on the field is "no offense." You would need clear and obvious offside position to overturn it at that point, which you most certainly do not have by MLS standards (at least from the look I had at it earlier).
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That’s definitely one way to look at it. But when a referee headed to the monitor the controlling decision would be “offside”. Just a different offside. And reviews are theoretically about whether a goal is valid—not individual offside decisions. So is the review about checking off all possible evidence to get back to good goal or is it about reversing the first incorrect decision and then restarting from the premise of good goal?

    I think it’s tricky. I can see both arguments.
     
  23. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Everything I've seen would treat these as separate on-field decisions, meaning that either must be a clear and obvious error to overturn. The only difference here is that there was no opportunity to make a decision. It's almost like it's a missed incident.
     
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  24. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I don’t think it is any different from a ref giving a PK for a trip and there is a possible HB. If the VAR concludes there isn’t a trip, the HB is a separate call. Same here, there are two independent calls. To me, it’s pretty obvious that each call has to be assessed separately and there can’t be a generic OS decision.
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a good point.

    The only counterpoint is that offside (in MLS) has a grey zone where VARs and referees are supposed to say "that's too close, call stands." So if the second offside decision fell firmly in that grey zone... I do (or did) think it's a tossup on whether or not "call stands" means "this incident was never called offside, so it's a goal" or "the onfield decision was no goal, so we're not messing with it." With all that said...

    An MLS AVAR told me last night, in response to this question (and he saw the UCL incident) that his understanding of the protocol is that the Referee would simply make a decision on the second incident once at the monitor. Even if it's 51/49 in one direction. He supported that with the "everything is reviewable once you're at the monitor" mantra. Which I think is the most sensible approach.
     

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