UEFA Competitions 2023-2024 Referee Discussions [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 23, 2023.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Remember (or, I guess, FYI), UCL appointments are sort of sketched out where the bigger names expect 3 or 4 matches in the group stage. Marciniak has already worked MD 2, 4 and 5.

    Having a referee work MD 4, 5 and 6 would almost never be the plan, though it does happen. Last season, only two referees did it. Oliver and... Marciniak.

    Long way of saying I don't think you can glean anything of real consequence from the MD6 appointment. Maybe he has the week off for the penalty but he could just as easily get the week off so he's viable for a wider range of R16 KO matches. Or, both. Also worth remembering that MD6 is where UEFA throws a few names on the more inconsequential games to get them more experience, which further lessens the need to have all the big guns out.
     
  2. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Seeing this happen to marciniak, the best referee in the world, I seriously wonder how Collina’s career would have gone if he was in modern VAR times.
     
  3. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    turpins face after one of the most egregious dives I’ve ever seen

    upload_2023-11-30_9-18-51.png
     
    feyenoordsoccerfan repped this.
  4. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Turpin is a very worthy heir to Kuipers as the referee with the best facial expressions in the European refereeing game.
     
  5. Wouldnot it be fun if he would grab into his pocket, and produce a card with the number 8 on it....for the execution of the dive:D
     
  6. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Yea the handling calls from this round could be a great video. The Newcastle one as an example of where it shouldn't be called (quite natural position, close to the body, arm not in the expected path of the ball) and the Havertz one as an example of when it should be (arm stretched out and an covering the path towards goal). But that would require the IFAB to have a desire for clarity and openness so I expect not.
     
  7. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    For good sakes, how are we as referees supposed to know what to call as handballs when this UCL match week has produced all of these gems that all contradict each other
     
  8. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you're actually being serious, just study the current version of Law 12, understand the considerations for handling decisions, and apply your interpretation as fairly and consistently as you can in the matches you referee. If you try to do the game justice, odds are you'll be just fine. There is definitely going to be more tinkering with the handball law in the VAR era and we'll see what interpretations and instructions come out next year. Then we'll adjust.

    The good news is that nobody in the world seems to understand what a handball is on marginal cases, as evidenced by this week's European matches. If you can justify your decision and explain why, and keep it consistent across your matches, nobody can have any real complaints.
     
  9. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I just don't get this "distinction." His arm is stretched out because absolutely no one runs or jumps like they're one of Michael Flatley's river dancers. I don't really see a distinguishable difference between this and the Newcastle incident. So it should have been a handball in both or a no-call in both.
     
  10. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    I agree with this. What I’d argue is that calls to get rid of VAR entirely should be replaced with calls to get back to the original intent.
     
  11. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    Sometimes. But in some cases, the decision changes when there’s another pair of eyes on the situation.

    Soccer overburdens a center ref in a way no other sport does with the possible exception of rugby. There’s simply no way to see everything.

    Where I agree with you is that we’re seeing a lot of cases in which the VAR crew is imposing its own subjective view on a play the CR saw just fine.
     
  12. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In theory, I agree with you 100%.

    In practice, the only thing that will happen is that we will see the scope of VAR expand. With the exception of one event (the NFL removing the challenges on pass interference), video review scope has never contracted. It has only expanded. And all it does is give the masses yet another reason to bash officials.
     
    ShayG and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  13. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration—other tweaks get pulled back when they don’t work. But I think it is absolutely a fair statement to say that while tweaks may go up and down in thr short term, the long term trend line is always for more. I’d love to hear a counter examples where a sport actually pulled back in a meaningful way and the pull back stuck.
     
  14. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Ajax always have interesting matches with Italian CRs (I remember the Chelsea CL match from several years ago, sadly). Yesterday's Marseilles -Ajax match had Sozza in his first European match with Iratti at VAR. There was an incredibly soft penalty at 1:25 when the Marseilles player goes down with the faintest of touches by Hato the young Ajax CB. At 9:05, Berghuis has a rash challenge on the sideline that is a YC but VAR suggests a review and Sozza comes back and upgrades it to a RC (personally, I thought it was a straight RC and I have no issues with the VAR review here). Finally in the dying embers of the match the Ajax GK, Ramaj, totally misplays a ball that seems to be going out and pushes the ball keeping it in play. He tries to go after the ball and the diving Marseilles attacker gets a head to the ball and Ramag may or may not be a touch too late but is called for a foul and the resultant PK ends up as the match winner.

    I think both penalty calls were dodgy and there were a bunch of other calls during the game that were poor as well (for both teams so this is not just a pro-Ajax comment). I don't know what UEFA will thing about this. I would be interested in comments about the two PK calls.
     
  15. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Yea but it isn't a case of "natural movement and the ball just happened to hit the arm, Havertz arm is stretched out and covering the same area as he does with his leg. There is barely room for the ball to pass between the arm and the leg.
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Watch the legs and not the arms. It's not really soft at all.

    I am with you on this one but got to say I am VERY surprised by the upgrade to review here. Maybe--just maybe--we're seeing a pendulum swing back toward more SFP cards in UEFA? Because there have been a few this matchweek that would never have been given via VAR in the past.

    This one is awkward/strange, but I wouldn't say dodgy or soft. He strikes his opponent in the head instead of the ball. The days when a goalkeeper can get away with this are gone (outside England, at least). I don't see any way how this can be avoided. And as you point out, the entire play is a mistake of his own creation. He screws up, his opponent beats him to the ball, and then he misses the ball and slaps/strikes/punches his opponent in the side of the head with the force equal to what it would take to play the ball away.
     
    Orange14 repped this.
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think a legitimate argument here is not that what Havertz did was natural, but maybe what Livramento did was unnatural.

    Now, I'm not saying that declaratively. But I think it's more open to discussion than some seem to believe. Does his arm need to be that high? Is it really a natural running motion as he goes back toward goal? Or is his arm raised to take away space for a dangerous cross? At the moment you freeze the play in the PSG-Newcastle match, all other Newcastle defenders are running back toward goal and no one has their arm like he does.

    You also asserted that the arm was not in the expected path of the ball. On that point, I absolutely disagree. This was not a shooting scenario. Maybe a cross would be low to the ground but, generally speaking, his arm was absolutely blocking part of the expected/potential path of the ball.

    But we could debate things like that forever, which is kind of the point here. It's always going to be impossible to legislate the handball law to the point where we can get certain answers on plays like these.
     
    socal lurker repped this.
  18. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know that there was a long-ago experiment to have a second onfield "center referee" calling fouls in US Soccer (was it in the Open Cup? Those who remember that can correct me) and that it failed pretty miserably.

    I know that MASL (indoor arena) moved from two onfield referees to three this season. I was watching a replay of a game last night just to see how the mechanics worked. It looked a lot like three-man basketball officiating mechanics, which I was expecting. What I did notice was one of the referees (who I knew and is in his first season as a regular referee in the "top-flight" MASL league if you can call it that) was calling a lot of the fouls.

    The argument against having more than one "whistle" on a soccer game has always been that calling fouls is so subjective that it's hard to get all three referees on the same page. Of course, I know the same thing could be said for basketball as well.

    I'm not writing this to offer any sort of opinion on multiple whistles on a soccer game. I'm just writing to document there have been instances of this being tried in "professional" leagues (I'm saying MASL is professional, even though I know pay isn't exactly top drawer).
     
    Beau Dure repped this.
  19. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    There was an experiment, many years ago (30?) with 2 Rs and 2 ARs. I don’t think the experiment was in the US. As I recall it was considered so awful that the experiment was ended before its scheduled time.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was worldwide in 1999-2000. USOC was, indeed, one of the competitions (2000 edition). It went so poorly that it was abandoned for the final.

    I believe Malaysia, Brazil and Italy also did this in their major cup competitions. I can't remember if it was used in a first division or not.
     
    AlextheRef and socal lurker repped this.
  21. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Can you guys explain why almost every other sport on earth uses multiple referees with multiple whistles up to professional and they get along for the most part just fine, but for soccer, apparently moving to a second referee with another whistle is just a complete disaster every time? Football, basketball, hockey, water polo, lacrosse off the top of my head all use multiple refs no problem. Yeah there can be frustration with lack of consistency between refs but it’s just an accepted part of the game. Whenever I have to do a dual soccer game I have the same frustration as we have doing other multiple whistled sports, but now I have the experience to know it’s normal among All sports
     
    mfw13 repped this.
  22. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why did it fare poorly? What were the issues? Genuinely curious. HS soccer in my state has used two centers and no ARs forever. Won't say it's great but curious about the more "official" try you reference.
     
    mfw13 repped this.
  23. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I saw one of these in 2000 and it didn't strike me as particularly notable one way or the other. It was an A-league team in Pittsburgh and had the chance to go out with the crew after the match. One of the referees was Alex Prus and he was very ambivalent about the whole thing.

    "not my favorite but I do what the boss tells me to do"

    With that said, I never heard why it was so bad it had to be abandoned without further evaluation.

    Conceptually I can see the problem but not sure if it created more problems than it solved.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #349 MassachusettsRef, Dec 1, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2023
    It's 23 years ago, so I can't cite chapter and verse. But there were definitely a few USOC games with double digit cards that were considered disasters. You had players going to the other referee to protest. Referees in the way. Inefficient communication with ARs. And then just general inconsistency of application on what's a foul, with referees then trying to compensate for each other. I cannot stress enough how much no one liked it. USOC abandoned it. I am pretty sure Coppa Italia abandoned it (as the final that year, at least, only had a single referee). I am not sure any senior competition saw it through to the end, but I can't say that with certainty. Either way, no one lobbied for it to continue or expand in 2001. A lot of the contemporary media from that time seems lost to simple google searches, but I'm sure you can find some good articles about coaches complaining if you have access to Nexis or a similar database.

    Look, I think one of the fundamental issues in all of this relates to what we discuss with VAR. Soccer is a sport where the referee takes up a ton of consequential subjective calls (even simple fouls calls outside the middle third are potentially consequential, as are certain boundary decisions) and, for well over a century, players and "the game" have got used to different referees having different thresholds and management styles. Teams adjust. Coaches prepare. So long as a referee is generally meeting expectations and calling the match consistently, the actual participants are fine (fans are a different story, of course). Phil Dowd wasn't Mike Dean. Baldo Toledo wasn't Chico Grajeda. Mateu Lahoz wasn't Cesar Ramos. Etc. etc. Some like one style over another, fine. And each of these styles can lead, on its own, to an individually bad match. But... imagine mixing them in a single match. It doesn't work.

    To the extent the laws are more consistently applied in the last 23 years and you have more AR involvement already and we're trying to get clear and obvious standards on certain big decisions... okay, maybe the game is more ready for multiple whistles. I don't think it is and that the issues with VAR only demonstrate that. I mean, we have VARs and CRs disagreeing on major decisions. What will happen when a VAR sends something down and the two CRs disagree? Or, more important in my eyes, what about when a referee disagrees with his partners on a more minor decision but he is sure he's correct? It's a recipe for referee by committee. For more stoppages and conferences. For more dissent. This isn't local high school soccer where a referee can (and probably should, all things considered in many situations) just sit on his hands while his opponent screws things up or gets something wrong. On globally broadcast matches, with referees who have huge egos about their skills, that's just not viable.

    I absolutely despise the thoughts in the post above yours, but I'm not surprised to see them written here, given the source. Different sports are supposed to be different. The "other sports do X well so we should do X" is so tiring. Are we supposed to be on a slow process to homogeneity? I just don't get it. People spend so much time and mental energy trying to "fix" a sport that they allegedly love.
     
  25. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting and thanks. To clarify, I wasn't advocating two refs. I just---for whatever reason---didn't recall that experiment and was curious about why it was deemed a failure.
     

Share This Page