The U.S. Presbyterian Church, which just called for divestment from Israel, is now meeting with Hezbollah leaders as part of its "fact finding" mission. http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/4578_31.htm Elder Ronald Stone, who identified himself as representing the East Liberty Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh, said, "As an elder of our church, I'd like to say that according to my recent experience, relations and conversations with Islamic leaders are a lot easier than dealings and dialogue with Jewish leaders." Elder Stone went on to praise Hezbollah: "We treasure the precious words of Hezbollah and your expression of goodwill towards the American people." If there was any doubt about the bigotry in the Presbyterian Church's divestment decision. This erases it.
There is no US Presbyterian Church There is no Central Presbyterian commitee. If you are going to comment on the disvestment get it right.. here is a faq put out by PCUSA http://www.pcusa.org/israelandjewishrelations/faq.htm as far as the church leader who met with hezbollah...He represents himslef and unfortunatley the parrisioners his local church.He doesnt represnt all of US presbyterianism (niether does PCUSA and their general assembly, i was raised Presbyterian and our church wasnt part of that body) as far as that elder and his church.. to me you are trying to imply bigotry on him, his church and presbyterians as a whole... as someone who was raised a presbyterian I am not happy that this guy is saying and doing what he his doing under the Presbyterian name. But he has every right to, and I doubt very much that he is a bigot... check out his church's website.. it seems to be a very diverse and multi cultural place.Probably in truth very liberal (a rarity i will add in Presbyterian churches) http://www.cathedralofhope.org/ I am sure If I dug around I could find some pretty nasty Jewish religious leaders who's statements could be viewed as bigoted.. will it prove anything? will it show that Judiasm is a religion of hate filled extremists? of course not.. because Juaism doesnt have a central authority.. there are many "rogue" factions that say and do what they feel.
Anyone who meets with and praises Hezbollah as part of a "fact finding mission" is pretty clearly a bigot. From what I gather, the leaders of PC-USA are at least somewhat embarassed, because it underlines the bigotry in their divestment resolution. Other members of the guy's church in Pittsburgh are distancing themselves. PC-USA may not have encouraged such blatant brownosing of Hezbollah leaders, but the Presbyterian Church's anti-Israel policy, underlined by the most recent outrageous resolution on divestment, inevitably leads to this type of stuff. There will always be some extremists in any religion, including Judaism. But the church's recent actions were pouring gasoline on the fire. Lastly, I recognize that not all Presbyterians think this way. The PC-USA pissed off a lot of cognregations by doing this, and several Presbyterians at the rank and file level have voiced their opposition, in some cases going so far as to withhold their apportioned funds (I don't know if they call it dues or something else) to the central body. Good for them.
Not trying to start a riot here...but my understanding is that Hezbollah has pretty much gotten out of the terrorism business. How different is Hezbollah today from, say, former Mau Maus in 1970?
Give me a********ing break.... I support Israel and their right to exist.. I am on their side 9 out of 10 times in the whole issue.. But there are SERIOUS credibility issues with many of their actions and behaviors.Heck.. there are Jews who are very critical of Israel.... how about posting some links about their bigotry.. FUKIT.. Ill do it for you... http://www.nkusa.org/ http://www.jatonyc.org/ are these people bigots because they question Israel.. PCUSA has questioned Israel and its methods in the occupied lands.. they have called for corporations to be wary of investing in the region. they have every right to.
Well, it would be weird if PCUSA thought about divestment in Zimbabwe to try to push for a solution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Their position is clear and I'll add it is a reasonable and a very good one. i agree with most of it. Only the latter seems a bit... but hey, they're christians it's obvious they tend to sympatize with christians. Anyway I don't see the demon here. Can the christian organizations and churches have their opinions and be active only if they are proisraeli? What's the use of a fact finding mission listening to only one of the various parts of a conflict? "Don't cry 'wolf', shepherd boy," said the villagers, "when there's no wolf!" They went grumbling back down the hill.
I agree. Did PC-USA meet with any members of the Israeli government? Doubtful. The flowery language you site in the resolution appears to have balance. Of course, when you realize that the substance of the actions, divestment, is only directed toward one party, it's clearly inappropriate. As usual, Sardinia rushes in to bash Israel.
The idea behind divestment (they are free to do what they want btw) is to try to induce Israel to change its policies. I don't think there's much to divest in the occupied territories. It's their legitimate opinion and I happen to agree with them. p.s. Bash Israel? i just stated my opinion on your attempt to demonize that church. You should cool off and restart reasoning before posting. When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is NO wolf!"
I'm not demonizing the church. I'm pointing out the bigotry of the individuals and officials who supported this terrible resolution. I went out of my way to praise the Presbyterians who have stood up to this madness. Amazing, an elder of the church meets with Hezbollah, and you whine about there being "no wolf." That armband of yours is a bit too tight today.
sardus_pater - What's the use of a fact finding mission listening to only one of the various parts of a conflict? JPhurst - I agree I thought this was already case closed. What should they have done? Contact the israeli embassy in the USA for infos on hezbollah? if you go in a fact finding mission in ME it is much probably because you don't entirely trust the unbias of the sources you can find while at home. When they will fund them or they will congratulate them if they launch a rocket in the shebaa farms again I think you can have a point.
Next up, Sardus Pater leads a delegation on a "fact finding mission" with Al Qaeda, "to hear both sides of the story." "We treasure the precious words of Osama Bin Laden and your expression of goodwill towards Western Civilization" said Sardus Pater.
there was a great two-part article on hezbollah in the ny times book review about three months ago. for anyone seriously interested in the issue, and not trying to have an orgasm at the merest mention of anything middle eastern, it is worth a read.
hezbollah is not al qaeda. And not only because hezbollah is shiite and al qaeda is sunni. hezbollah is not in any way linked to al qaeda afaik. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah The fact g.w bush put hezbollah, iran little friends, in the evil list is no surprise. he is the one who invaded iraq as a part of "war on terrorism". p.s. anyway I did listen to what al qaeda said, i didn't cover my ears am i guilty of something?
The main difference is that Al-Qaeda has his sights on battling Western civilization to create a regional Islamic Caliphate, and Hezbollah's hatred is largely limited to Jews, although they've killed Americans as well. The Sheeba Farms claim is a pretext. Israel was repeatedly told if they left Lebanon, that Lebanon would patrol the border and ensure the peace. Israel withdrew, completely. The UN even certified that they complied with all relevant resolutions. Despite that, Sheba Farms all of a sudden becomes sovereign Lebanese territory (which is a joke, because Syria is de facto occupied by Lebanon, so anything that Syria says it gave up is still controlled anyway). What this shows is that even when Israel essentially agrees to surrender terms, its enemies will come up with other reasons to claim that they are oppressed. How anyone could defend PC-USA meeting with these racist thugs is beyond me.
You should have added that Hezbollah intentionally targets anyone in Israel, man, woman, child. Makes no difference to them. Sounds to me like they meet the definition of terrorists. I know, they actually have "soldiers" who battle IDF forces. Woopee, ******* do. So they have five real soldiers and the rest are murderous thugs.
Ah and tell me then which terrorist attacks they performed in Israel lately? Hezbollah doesn't target "anyone in Israel", the attacks are usually mortar shells or missiles against shebaa farms, most of the times, if not always, against IDF positions. the attacks are infact sporadic and light compared to what they used to do during the 22 year occupation of South Lebanon and match very little with the notion of terrorist attack. http://english.people.com.cn/200209/01/eng20020901_102417.shtml http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/05/14/mideast.violence/ http://www.politinfo.com/articles/article_2004_06_8_2849.html I understand you don't like hezbollah nor i am going to defend their attacks but given that they are still a part of the conflict I don't see why their points shouldn't be heard by a fact finding mission. Again, it is not a congratulating or incitating mission, it is a fact finding mission. You're overreacting. Funnily so because you're somewhat being a bigot accusing others of bigotry. "They should not talk with them, ah they did listen to the evil incarnated, the enemy thus they are..." Above all because we all know that what really drives you mad is the divestment idea. get back to reason and yours "I agree" as a reply to mine "What's the use of a fact finding mission listening to only one of the various parts of a conflict?" Finally, why don't you speak clearly? Are you accusing the presbyterian church to be antisemite?
The author fails to understand that the divestment is intended to solicit israel in order to finally find a solution of the conflict. It's a practical method for a precise problem not a choice of life which should be applied anywhere. Divestments in China wouldn't be of any help regarding the israeli-palestinian issue. You don't have to be a genius to understand it. That's why I suspect the author's seemingly incredulous approach to the question "are presbyterians antisemites?" is just a playwriting trick. PCUSA is right, israel must feel that much of its policies are wrong. Helping without questioning anything which is US policy now don't work. Still I don't understand why some ppl asks other ppl to think about something else when they approach the ME conflict in a way they don't like. They tend to talk as if they are the only legitimate ones to care about and that being them jewish or not. Mr unknown catholic man has said that the presbyterians are antisemite, all of you take note. The antisemitic presbyterians are invited to convert to catholicism as soon as possible and let those evil worshippers alone.
No, but it would help Tibetans, Taiwanese, practitioners of Falun Gong, and several other people who have suffered even though they don't send kids drugged out on hashish with bombs strapped to their chest to kill civilians who committed the war crime of having lunch at Sbarro. But apparently you, and PC-USA, only care about purported "victims" when they are trying to kill Jews.
Hizzbullah is involved in multiple kidnappings, and regularly shells the northern Israeli city of Kiryat-Shmona, with Katyushas dropping all over the place. That they do this less now than they used to a couple of years ago does not mean much. And if Hizzbullah has no connection to the Palestinian groups, then tell me how meeting with them helps PCUSA dude understand "both sides of the situation"?
This argument is silly, JPhurst, excuse me. And USA what is doing to solve those problems in China? Why USA loses times and efforts with roadmaps and so on while ignoring Tibet? And the anti defamation league? Why american evangelicals are not battling for tibetans rights instead of throwing away money for Israel? http://www.cfoic.com/index.asp?mainpage=press&id=115 Supporting directly the settlements policy... wow... this is the attitude we all like and appreciate. But I am not going to say that evangelicals racially hate the arabs. Nor I am suggesting them to think about Tibet instead. Their opinion is totally wrong and I don't really like what seems to me weird fundamentalism but they are free to have their opinions and be active if they think they should. I feel like Zidane in a one vs one match against Materazzi sometimes.