If you've watched the Fire this year, you know that Mapp has turned a corner. He just toyed with New England this past week and made defenders and midfielders look silly and slow. I've said it a hundred times before I think, but I'll say it again. You have to really pay attention to players right around 20 years old. It seems like right after a 20th birthday, a player will either take off or stall. Mapp has taken off. No surprise, based on how much fun it's been to watch him with the Fire, that European teams are starting to take notice.
The rest of the thread is two-fold: 1. questions the source- it's a guy who claims to have an inside-source, who he later reveals to be his uncle, who knows people in scouting at PSV. Some posters seem to be willing to believe him, a few not. 2. questions Hiddink going after a virtual unknown in a foreign league with little respect. However- most posters seem to agree that such past scouting have brought them Farfan and Beaser, and are willing to trust that PSV's job is to find diamonds in the rough- players they can develop and later sell. I get the sense that if true, this is a very preliminary evaluation of Mapp.
Usually, stats give you a decent indication of what a player really contributes. In some cases, its deceptive, because a player can get into the right position, do the right thing- but not have enough talent on the other end to make the play (I think about Adu in the 1st half of last weeks game vs. KC- he made an absolute brillant, quick cross to the far post. 6 yards from goal, it landed- perfectly swung to where the goalkeeper had no chance, and had to scramble across goal. Perfectly weighted around the last defender, and right there for an attacker to head in near corner. However, Jamil Walker stayed in the middle- stayed guarded...instead of running to far post, open space. I'm convinced that in Europe- Freddy's cross is a goal...a more sophisticated attacker 'sees' what Freddy sees and gets there An unsophisticated fan would say, "oh Freddy just slung over a cross to no one in particular." Not at all- Freddy is just at a different level sometimes. He sometimes looks the worse for it) I think Mapp is similar. Sometimes, he makes the right ball. But no one is there. Also, Beasley is one proof that stats can be deception. His MLS production numbers were underwhelming overall..
Oh you want people to base their opinions on how a person is playing currently? These are the USA boards. We don't care how someone is currently playing than how he looked years ago when he played a game against a specific team because obviously how someone played once upon a time is a clear indication of their abilities for all times. Mathis may need another look at forward because he played well against Mexico way back when. Keller is one of the top 5 keepers in the world because of a game against Brazil. JOB is a "must have" player for 06 because of how he played in Korea in 2002. Convey was great at the world youth cup a couple years ago so must still be today. Reyna is crap because he got taken out of his game in France in 98. Ed Johnson has had a very hot start to his national team career (against bad opposition) so he could tank worse than Mathis and people will still say he needs to be in the team. etc.
Yeah - crazy concept, I know. But sometimes I lurk in a place like the DCU or Chicago team forum and read comments that maybe applied to Mapp a year ago, and I wonder if people just stopped watching. This year, Mapp's been phenomenal.
Ditto. Not as athletic? Not as much creativity? We watching the same guy? The Chicago-NE game is up on MLSNet. Watch it, as it's a great indicator of the type of player Mapp's been this year. Mapp is more athletic and creative than Convey ever was or will be.
I don't think so. I'm not saying the gap is that huge though. But I do count endurance as a part of athletecism. Mapp has improved there this year but he's still got a ways to in playing 90 minutes. But he's still got a better combination of skill and technical ability than any winger we have
I watched most of that. Thats why I made my prior comment of "God's gift to Soccer". I just disagree. At this point, I think Mapp is gonna turn out into a better player though. but thats not for this thread anyway.
But I think it's useful comparison. When Convey left MLS, he was riding on the promise of unfulfilled potential - at least when it came to playing for his club team. In hindsight, it may have been foolish for any of us to believe at the time Convey was all the sudden going to turn it on and start producing at the club level just because his jersey changed. Had Mapp left MLS last year, it would have been the same thing. He had lots of potential with little club production to show for it. This year, though, he's blossomed, and his potential has turned the corner into real production. I think Mapp could have a legitimate shot at playing time at a club like PSV, if he maintains the level of play he's shown the better part of this MLS season.
Endurance is part of conditioning and Mapp does not look out of shape anymore. BTW, Mapp is 6'1"/160 with superb explosion and ball control. Bobby's what, 5'8" in high heels?
Points of comparison... Mapp, 1 goal, 5 assists (7 points), 1361 minutes played The roundly criticized Adu, 1 goal, 4 assists (6 points), 636 minutes played The un-realized Convey 2002; 5 goals, 3 assists (13 points), 2248 minutes played 2003; 2 goals, 1 assist (5 points), 1576 minutes played Don't see how he's particularly distinguished himself based on those #'s...
I wasn't gonna touch his statement because I've been staying away from Convey issues, but I have to say i think you are totally right. Mapp is bigger, faster, and stronger. He has better change of pace, a better shot, is 2 footed (unlike Convey), and delivers a better penetrating pass. It's difficult for me to believe that anyone would think Mapp is less athletic and less creative. If anything, you might argue that Convey is more "steady", but that's about it.
True, but when you say "athletic" people read "speed" and Mapp is faster than Convey. It's tough to say how fast he really is because he runs so effortlessly, but watching Joe Franchino chase him at top speed and lose ground with every step despite Mapp having the ball at his feet... I think that's the thing about Mapp's speed. He's extremely fast, and doesn't appear to lose any of that speed when he has the ball. I don't know what they did in Mississippi to give him that level of comfort with the ball, but we need to do a hell of a lot more of it. Another data point where our most aggressive attackers come disproportionately from out of the way soccer backwaters (Fort Wayne, Nacogdoches, Mississippi). But it still comes down to effectiveness. We know he is just swimming in talent, but hell we knew that two years ago when he torched New England as a sub in the Conference finals. But can he string those bits of talent together into a player who wins soccer games? To an extent I think you're seeing some of him doing that with the Fire now. Would like to see a bit more (particularly shooting on goal), but then again the Fire are currently winning and he seems to be the one pacing their offense, so...
Because production means a lot more than "statistics." You want to tell me that the 2002-3 version of Convey is anywhere near as productive as Mapp is right now, fine. We can end the discussion now, because we'll never reach anything close to an agreement. As for Adu, I'm not among his detractors. But he isn't playing as well as Mapp is.
It'll be interesting to see if he plays against AC Milan. It's possible he might get the All-Star bonus, but I doubt he'll make the squad for Fulham. (IIRC, they name an extra set of 'All-Stars' for contract bonuses to match back when it was East v West).
I couldn't agree more. In fairness to the truth, DaMarcus Beasley did suddenly turn it on and start producing at the club level just because his jersey changed. The difference between DMB and Convey, though, was that DMB had previously shown that he could be excellent against senior international competition, while Convey had not. Bobby wasn't terrible with his senior caps, but ultimately there was no there there -- nothing you could really point to that was special about his game. Now Justin Mapp, on the other hand ... whew.
I see the greatest obstacle for Mapp as his consistency on the field. Yes he has talent, speed, etc. Does he put in superstar performances day in and day out? Unfortunately no, I don't think he does. Not taking anything away from him as a player, but teams like PSV or any European team in general, will scrutinize an American player twice as hard and if the enormous workrate needed to play in these top leagues is deemed too much, well then there are plenty of other young talented players from other countries that can compete with consistency. The greatest difference when Americans move abroad according to Beasley and Bocanegra (of course I've lost the link to their interviews so my memory will have to do) is the intensity that is brought even to practice and the speed of play increasing dramatically. I don't know if Mapp is up for that kind of grueling commitment yet.
Chicago's Record: 11-6-2 DC's record: 6-6-4 (and better without Adu) DC was piss poor with Convey in 2002-03. I think one of the points people are making is that Mapp is making his team better. He has emerged as one of the true catalysts and weapons on the Fire team. I am not sure the same can be said about Adu or Convey when he was with DC, and this is coming from a DC fan. I saw Mapp play in the 1-1 draw with DC toward the beginning of the season. I remember thinking, "Man, who is this guy" When he turned it on he seemed to effortlessly get by the DC defenders. I spent the whole night cussing at him, but I saw first hand how dangerous he can be.
People who say Freddy hasn't played well this year are either (1) holding him to a different standard than every other player on DC or (2) haven't seen him play. For the umpteeth time (posted on other thread), as of 2 weeks ago, Freddy was the highest rated field player in cumulative game 'ratings' from DC fans- and the DC thread has been as critical (or more) than Freddy than other places. Maybe Wilson has passed him in limited games, but Freddy still is competitive against the best DC field players this year. 2- Freddy is still a project, but he's had some spectacular stretches this year (where he's owned the field for 15-20 minutes at a time). His production is pretty good, and quite frankly, if the supporting cast was better (when he's on the field), his numbers would be better too. He's had at least a couple assists snatched from the jaws of victory by weaker players (in mind, vs. Columbus 2 months ago- puts a ball right on Walker's head 5 yards from goal, and all he does is hit a weak header right at goalie. Most forward even in MLS coulda put that in). Freddy's done fine this year. Not great, not average, but somewhere in between. In your analysis, anyone has to consider how much he gets jerked around (positioning, not getting a stretch of games) and the fact (or...only slight, but its there) that Gomez/Moreno just don't try to make it easy for Freddy- they make little effort to give Freddy the ball easy, or in best positions.
Neither Beasley nor Convey were impressive shooting in MLS. They just weren't. They have kinks in their form, and didn't always seem to have the confidence to pull stuff of. Since going to Europe, they've gone different directions. DMB HAS gotten better- be it due to a comfortable situation or a coach who knows how to let him success/doesn't demand too much, or just flat out practicing/better confidence.. Convey continues to show no ability to score. With guys like Beasley/Convey (2000-2004), maybe its just a crap shoot whether or not they can step it up (shooting). Maybe you just can't tell- who is going to raise their game or not. But you know they all aren't. Maybe Mapp is in that category (maybe he's gets better at shooting, maybe not). I do agree, though, that he is a better all-around 'ball-er' than Beasley. That won't necessarily make him a better player..just he's got the potential to do more (more weapons). We'll see.