Does anybody know how the traditional position numbers started and evolved? For example, when Italy plays qualifying matches (outside of final tournaments), they always use the 1-11 scheme on their uniforms. Assuming they play a 4-4-2, it ends up looking like this:- ---------- 1 (keeper) ----------- -- 2 ------ 6 ------ 5 ------ 3 -- -- 11 ------ 8 ------ 4 ------ 7 - ------------ 10 ---- 9 ---------- I think, in ancient days, teams played with just 2 "fullbacks", so that's where the 2 and 3 originated, and the 7 and 11 were "wings" on a 5-man front line. But I'm curious if anybody knows the full history of how this evolved.
The traditional numbers are......... ________1__________ 2___4_______5_____3 7___6_______8_____11 _____9______10_____ That's certainly what's used in Britain anyway, I don't have a clue how that cam about but I've always wondered.
The original shirt numbering was based on the 2-3-5 system. 11--10--9--8--7 ---6----5---4 -----3----2 --------1 The advent of the W-M formation saw this shift to 11-----9-----7 ----10----8 ----6-----4 --3----5----2 -------1 The two inside forwards played deeper and the centre half dropped in alongside the full backs. This eventually developed into 4-2-4 with one of the inside forwards moving up front and another half back moving in with the back line. 11--10---9--7 -----6---8 -3--5-----4--2 -------1
Eh, I'm not too sure. Come to think of it, it's pretty difficult. When was the 4-4-2 as we know first widely used? Early 70s?
I'm not that sure, but I believe he did. If he doesn't count, then what about Giggs? Sorry for the Man Utd connection, but I cannot think of many great left-wingers from that time period to the modern day.
4-2-4 came to prominance in the late 40's/early 50's in Hungary and spread to Brazil in the mid 50's. It was probably around the early to mid 60's that the wingers became more midfielders than attackers and 4-4-2 as we know it camed into being, although I don't think it is easy to identify the shifts as it was from 2-3-5 to W-M to 4-2-4.
im just trying to compile a list of the best wingers of alltime(my favorite position) giggs has to be up there from when he was in his prime, as is figo, but i want older players. and i always hear different stories about best actually being a winger or a CF, same for garrincha, charlton started on the left, but i dont think for very long. i guess when it comes to alltime greats mostly i know of all the playmakers and center forwards(what everyone talks about), but not so much wingers, dmids, defenders, a regular CM.
Huh, interesting that things evolved slightly differently in England and Italy (and elsewhere, I'm sure). Alessandro Nesta wears a 6 in Italy's qualifiers, so 6 is defintely a central defender in Italy (along with 5) while the two central midfielders are 4 and 8 instead of 6 and 8. But I'm sure it probably followed a similar progression to the one lanman described.
Left wing: Gento, Czibor, Orsi, Finney, Dzajic, Rivelino, Blokhin, Gainza, Kolev. Right wing: Garrincha, Matthews, Kopa (for a time), Amancio, Jose Augusto, Hamrin, Jairzinho, Rahn, Molowny. Most of these are "old-school" wingers from the 50's and 60's.
Stanley Matthews definitely wore 7 right up to when he retired. But really they have to go back to the traditional number scheme. Zola wears no.25? instead of a damn 10? Beckham, 23? rather a 7? most of you won't feel me on this...but the "Simplest Game" has become "Contradicting Charlie" c'mon already!!!
I think England under Alf Ramsey was the first team to introduce a strict 4-4-2 in a World Cup. In Germany, the 4-2-4 of the early-/mid-60s developed into a 4-3-3 by the late-60s. The numbering in the 4-3-3 was like this: --11----9-----7 ----8---10---6 ---3---4---5---2 -------1
It wasn't 4-4-2 in the sense of a flat midfield but more of a diamond. --------Charlton Peters-----------Ball ---------Stiles Charlton and Peters regularly exchanged positions but no-one played particularly wide hence the nickname "Wingless Wonders".
Apart from the players already mentioned, here are a few others: 1930`s: Lehner, Zischek (right), Evaristo, Puc (left) 1950`s: Ghigghia, Julinho, Finney, Budai II, Wisnieski, Abbadie, Corbatta (right), Vincent, Schäfer, Lefter, Zagalo, Fenyvesi, McParland, Skoglund (left). 1960's: Jairzinho, Luis Cubilla, Mas, Held, Lapetra, Farkas, Simoes, Porkuian, Chislenko.
I don't know how it evolved, but the traditional numbering when I was growing up in Argentina in the 70's was something like this, as I recall: (Assuming a 4-3-3, which most top teams played back then) 1 - Goalkeeper 2 - Central defender/sweeper 4 - Central defender/stopper 3 - Right defender 6 - Left defender 5 - Defensive Mid 8 - Midfielder 10 - Creative midfielder/playmaker/withdrawn forward 7 - Right wing/forward 9 - Centerforward 11- Left wing/forward I think the 1978 WC starting line-up was numbered like this: ....................1 Fillol 3 Olguin.....2 Pasarella.....4 Galvan.....6 Tarantini ......................5 Gallego .....................8 Ardiles (Larrosa) 7 Bertoni..........10 Kempes.............11 Houseman (Ortiz) ....................9 Luque (With Olguin and Tarantini starting attacks on the wings, Passarella joining the attack, Gallego covering, Ardiles as playmaker moving all over the field, Kempes as withdrawn forward, and two wings. A very offensive formation. Larrosa might substitute for Ardiles for a slightly more conservative formation, as he did for the final. And Ortiz was another speedy wing)
According to the Book "Best of Enemies: England vs. Germany", by David Downing, the numbering system came about in 1936. I will quote the book: "The FA`s most meaningful contact with Germany in this period followed a visit from a Universities side in 1936 which cabled ahead that its party 'numbered thirteen'. The British misread this as 'numbered to thirteen' and assumed it was a request to number to this effect the kit they were supplying. Numbering was rare in those days, primarily because of its association with supposedly lower-class activities like greyhound- and horse-racing, but the International Committee watching the subsequent tour match found the numbers useful in identifying players, and were more inclined thereafter to promote the practice." Interesting to see these continental differences, especially in the defence. The left defenders are traditionally #3 (right defender #2), the sweeper/libero/CB is #5 and the stopper #4 over here.
Just a side note - when numbered shirts first came into use in Britain, the home side wore 1-11 and the away side 12-22.
I think it's like that: -----11----------9------ -----------10------------ 8-----------------------7 ------------6------------ 3-------4-------5-------2 ------------1------------ I'm not sure about 7 & 8 tough..
lanman's account of the numbering emerging from the old 2-3-5 is spot-on with all I've read on the subject -- also the 4-4-2 emerging with England's 'wingless wonders' in the 66' World Cup. I believe the M-W was favored in England and on the continent from the '30s to the '50s, with Hungary playing a withdrawn forward in the '54 Cup in an M-M formation: 3-2-3-2. Brazil never had much luck with 3 backs at this time, and went to 4 in the '58 Cup for their famous 4-2-4, which became the rage as other national and club teams tried to emulate Brazil's success. Of course it was bound to be transformed, and England set the tone with their success in '66, and the 4-4-2 took over; England in the '70 Cup showed further adjustment into the more familiar lineup we see to this day. 'Wingless Wonders' is a bit misleading; the England right and left backs were adept at getting forward into the attack, and just as adept at getting back on defense. I imagine their workrate was as high as the two Brazil mids in '58.
The players you listed only changed numbers because they weren't available when they came to their respective teams. Someone at Chelsea had 10 when Zola arrived, so he took 25. Now, at Cagliari, he has 10. At Real Madrid, club icon Raul wears 7, so he wasn't going to give it to Beckham. Beckham took number 23 in honor of h is favorite athlete, Michael Jordan.