Tokyo 2020 Olympic Referees & Discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think they care one bit. I think it's all about how Jovanovic reacts. I've certainly had a mistake or doubtful decision on my mind from one competition when I was about to work in another. It's all an off-the-field question for him.

    I actually thought of exactly this incident when I was posted, perhaps because it came up again recently. The difference, of course, is that Irmatov was already what could be classified as a "made man" in FIFA, so they weren't tossing him overboard (even though they should have and he never should have been there, but I digress). Jovanovic is different. Though this is ultimately just a bad exercise in judgment on matchday one. Maybe FIFA will give him another match, given the "weird zone of importance" this tournament holds that you pointed out. It would be a good way to help him get any lost confidence back.
     
  2. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
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  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Glad you posted this.

    I think it's a reminder of how bad VAR can be when it's in inexperienced hands. And, consequently, a reminder that we are still along way off from a world where the VAR duties can be shared widely at a World Cup.

    That's just not a clear and obvious red card. The referee is looking right at it and plays advantage for the player who allegedly is guilty of SFP! No one complains--not a soul. And every replay makes this look accidental. For me, the Spanish player is fouling the Egyptian by charging him from behind. The fact that the Spanish player's leg slips under the studs of the Egyptian attacker's studs doesn't turn this from a foul on one to a red card on the other guy. Every thing about this is wrong. The VAR is looking at things only in slo-mo, reacting only to the result, and trying to shoehorn a "clear error" into a situation where no one on the field thinks there is one and no one expects a red card.

    Somewhat reassured the referee didn't accept the recommendation (though part of me wishes he didn't even give a yellow, but I can see why a referee in that situation would feel that was a bridge too far). But it really is another reminder of how difficult VAR instruction and practical application can be. At this point, I'd be surprised if we had more than 10 people called to act as main VARs in Qatar next year. It takes regular practice to both get good at it and have a feel for the role.
     
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  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    @Mikael_Referee do you have the Conger red card clipped? The NBC highlights package makes it a bit tough to discern how the whole mass con was handled.
     
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  5. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #55 kolabear, Jul 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
    Comrade, I am told that at the next Party Congress, we will be asked to form a Committee and formulate official Party Doctrine on the Tyranny of Slo-Mo.
    :)
     
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  6. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    I'm glad you posted a detailed reply - I was so confused the first time watching this clip. I finally figured out the VAR was sending down this: ouch.PNG
    Can you tell from this frame #10 white is more deserving of a caution than #9 red?
     
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  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had to watch it three or four times. White challenges red from behind with limited chance to play the ball and it wasn't that far from being SPA. And we're going to turn this into SFP the other way?
     
  8. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Until the end, I thought the review was for possible SFP on the white elbow to the red head, and I was thinking that was poor use of VAR. The actual use was even worse. As @threeputzzz 's still shows, this is a perfect example of why a still is useless on many decisions.
     
  9. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Big VAR call in the 6th minute of the Brazil/Netherlands match. Hand ball called for a PK is overturned and rightfully so.
     
  10. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At this point I have no idea on handball. I'm kinda surprised to see the OFR to be honest. The arm was out shoulder height, but it's also an unexpected ball. I'm not sure I'd call it a clear error though.
     
  11. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    I didn't just see Macario sub on wearing a watch, did I?
     
  12. FlaGrandpaRef

    FlaGrandpaRef Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2020
    It sure looked like it.
     
  13. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    I'd have contacted Frappart on my headset, but alas I'm only a Grassroots Ref.
     

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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Elfath has Brazil-Cote d’Ivoire with his trio and Jurisevic as VAR. Jovanovic happens to be his fourth.

    Penso AVAR again, this time to al-Marri, the Qatari who gave the peculiar recommendation in the Spain match above. So that could be a weird clash of approaches on Egypt-Argentina.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just watched this. The OFR was for offside--interfering with an opponent. When the header comes in, a Brazlian attacker is in an OSP. She then makes physical contact, as she clears back upfield, with the Dutch defender who ultimately is called for the handball. It's slight, but it definitely occurs. And that has to be a punishable offside.

    If the offside didn't occur, that penalty for handball was standing. VAR would not overturn that. But, sort of piggybacking on where @code1390 was going here, that's not a really great call. Someone misses a header and it hits her arm and goes out for a corner kick. This is one of those where the handball can be defended per letter of law, but no one really expects a handball there--I know there were some appeals, but just look at everyone's reaction.

    And to that end, VAR in the women's game can be so bizarre. It's only been a few years, but we've become so accustomed to how a lot of it works in the men's game. Here, the penalty is set, goalkeeper, kicker and all other players are ready to go in position, and the referee is still communicating with the VAR, with no indication that it might be overturned. In a men's game, the likelihood is that the referee is still in discussion with some of the players (because, of course, at least a few will be protesting), and you're not getting the penalty set until the VAR gives the "check complete" and the referee conveys that to the players. I'm not trying to indirectly encourage dissent, but conversation and communication is more natural than what you saw here. Add in the fact that it took forever and it is just a weird scene at this level of competition.

    Oh, also... the Olympics is a stark reminder that guys like Twellman can be very tolerable when compared to people who aren't announcing elite competitions on a regular basis. Some of the commentary and confusion from the broadcast teams in matches I've looked at so far has been amazing.
     
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  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Didn't catch the game, but two reds for Elfath.
     
  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    How did Elfath not give that DOGSO red to Brazil in real time? Such an easy call live.

    Trying to really wrap my head around what considerations he used to justify a look of a red other than it's the 12th minute and it's against Brazil?

    That's a really poor decision from a potential World Cup referee.
     
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  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://streamable.com/v8qbb8
     
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  19. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    I always try to find a rationale for a "surprise" decision, but I just cant find one here.

    Once you decide it's a foul, it becomes the most obvious DOGSO you could find.
     
  20. USSF REF

    USSF REF Member

    Red Bull NY
    United States
    Nov 6, 2005
    Rochester, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We've been hearing and discussing underpunishing on purpose when there is even a chance it might be something other than red.

    We can all agree this is red.

    But, the last second move away from goal as he draws the contact might have given IE the mind to go low and then if VAR looks and has the mind to change it they can, as was done here.
     
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  21. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://streamja.com/BBM3k

    Here's another one in the Germany versus Saudi Arabia match. Dogso or serious foul play pick, your poison. Probably shouldn't have needed an on field review in my opinion.
     
  22. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    The G-SA one is more understandable I can see not being sure of SFP live, and I can understand being doubtful about likelihood of possession from the Rs angle.

    maybe it’s just me, but I like getting rid of the wave off of the yellow before showing the red. Was never really necessary for in game communication of what happened on these VAR upgrades to red.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think it's necessarily "go low," because getting DOGSO wrong is different than, say, over/under punishing a borderline SFP tackle. I think the component you identify here is simply what gave him actual doubt.

    It is worth noting that Elfath hasn't really been having a great year on the accuracy of his big decisions. He's had a lot of OFRs in MLS this season. What helps him is that he's very good at using VAR efficiently, which we see here. But I wonder if/how that catches up to him with PRO or FIFA. Even the second red card in this match was very odd. Elfath whistled a soft, though absolutely correct, foul a little late as a second Ivorian player came through recklessly on a Brazilian in midfield. The reaction was almost non-existent initially and then Elfath just sort of dispassionately produced the 2CT. It wasn't wrong in any way whatsoever, but it was strange and he seemed somewhat rattled.

    Will be interesting to see where his trio goes now in the tournament. Just like in the 2019 U20s, I think his comfortability with VAR and good accompanying VARs will take him far, so long as something uncorrectable or truly unacceptable doesn't occur.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a nit-pick for practical reasons, but I think it's sort of a big deal philosophically.... it's clear the OFR was for DOGSO and not SFP. Given the SFP aspect is pretty clear on video and the punishment in most competitions is stronger, there really should have been a focus there first.

    Was thinking about this recently, too. On the one hand, I agree with you and the wave-off of the caution was/is cumbersome and clunky. The problem, though, is or will be situations where an OFR is for violent conduct that occurs after a player receives a yellow card. How will referees be able to communicate that the yellow card stands if it is now assume that a red card from an OFR wipes out a previously shown yellow? It's a weird little mechanical quirk.
     
  25. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Hmm. Another interesting quirk, I guess. Imagine the R had given the send off for DOGSO. I don't think we'd see a review for SFP, as the red was already given. So the player leaves the game with a one game suspension instead of a multi-game suspension, whereas if the R didn't sanction the DOGSO, he'd have the longer suspension from the VAR process. (I guess the answer is that would be left to the competition authority, but leagues seem to look at that much differently based on the call in the game.)

    I guess that part for me is a bit of a "so what"--but then I'm old school enough to prefer the old days when a second yellow was never shown. All that matters for the game at hand is that it is a send off. (And referees are still allowed to talk to coaches or captains.)
     

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