Tokyo 2020 Olympic Referees & Discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Apr 22, 2021.

  1. Howard Maxi

    Howard Maxi New Member

    Jun 28, 2021
    Even more so considering Roi Reinshreiber is AVAR.
     
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  2. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah I saw the AVAR assignment and missed the 4O assignment. Very interesting.
     
  3. Mi3ke

    Mi3ke Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    New Mexico
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Would it have been better to call the PK after any decision was made on the GK staying in or subbing out? Go look at the monitor but don't point to the mark until the injury was cleared. Just thinking out loud.
    Cheers, Mi3ke
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Went back and watched this. It's a really weird/interesting one for a lot of reasons.

    I'd actually start by disagreeing with @sulfur to the extent that Alves "wisely used the delay." I mean, she has to do that. She'd be crucified if there was a waiting recommendation from the OFR and she didn't handle it until after the injury was cleared. To that end, I actually think the recommendation took too long to make. The VMOs had enough information to make the recommendation much earlier than they did. It would have been better if Alves could have left the scene of the injury much quicker after getting the medical personnel on to start the OFR, rather than lingering for a decent amount of time and then going. It would have made the award of the penalty a little less surprising (if it was--that part was hard to tell) and the whole thing would have been more seemless.

    At the monitor itself, I've got to say I like how she was being very clear about what angles and speed she wanted/needed. I think she was a little too focused on the slo-mo at one point, but it's still better to have a referee new to VAR directing the process rather than having it orchestrated for them.

    Once the decision is made, it is tricky and your suggestion is not without merit. Just like you don't card a player on the ground, I think one could argue there might be value in an unwritten rule about not calling a VAR penalty against a goalkeeper who is still potentially seriously injured and being treated. At minimum, her formal style of making the signal off-field and calling it just wasn't necessary, but again, I think a lot of that has to do with a referee who is new to VAR and the mechanics. So, how do you deliver the penalty decision? I think a lot of it could be done privately. Honestly, in MLS and other leagues, the 4th knows what's going on because he's on the comms and is often letting the more aggrieved coach what is happening or likely to happen so that he can get ahead of issues. I could see a scenario where the fourth informs the coaches the restart is going to be a penalty and Alves lets the captains or nearby players know. Then everyone knows what to expect and the signal itself can be made once the injury is dealt with. However...

    The only real reason not to make the signal is to not disrespect the injured player in a stadium environment and prompt thousands of fans to cheer or jeer while she lay injured. Here? No fans. So, is it really a problem? Not in this case, honestly. I think the lack of spectators makes the way she handled it fine (with quibbles as noted above). But yeah, that same exact scenario in a match with 60,000 people? Referees need to be instructed well in the best ways to proceed.

    I will also note that the lack of much protest over the initial decision illustrates some of the big differences from the men's and women's game at this level. Generally, you see less dissent (though that does not always hold true). But specifically to VAR, a men's team would be asking for it and about it there; the women aren't used to it, so those habits haven't been developed yet. I think that fact--that Japanese players weren't asking for intervention--is another reason why this all felt a little weird, too.
     
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  5. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Small additional note on Japan: they have the 2nd youngest team at the tournament; most are fairly inexperienced at the international level. Plus, out of all the women's teams at the tournament, Japan generally would just be the last to make appeals to the referee or show any dissent. From the USWNT or a European team? Sure. From Japan? I'd be more surprised if it were to happen than that it wasn't.
     
  6. Mi3ke

    Mi3ke Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    New Mexico
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What made me think of the question was, if knowing the PK was coming, or not, how does it impact the decision to leave GK in, or not. It is a very weird mechanics situation.

    Hindsight being 20/20, ball don't lie , save made and GK subbed out minutes later.
     
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  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #32 MassachusettsRef, Jul 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021
    I think you've lost me here. Is the suggestion that a partially injured goalkeeper would be more likely to sub out if there's a PK? Or less likely? I think I reject the premise either way.

    But perhaps more to the point, if that information would affect a coach's decision, why should it be hidden from the team? It's the next restart. Both teams should always know the next restart. Now that I read both of your posts, I don't think I'm following what the issue would be.

    The mechanics and public conveyance of the decision are all very interesting. But if the idea is the restart decision should not be divulged until a decision on a substitution is made... no, absolutely not.

    In addition to the principle I'm expressing above, there's actually a technical reason why that can't happen. Substitutions are not allowed while a VAR check or an OFR is occuring. Because what if an OFR leads to a red card? It's not hard to imagine a scenario like this where the goalkeeper gets sent off after the OFR. And now you just allowed her to be substituted before you conducted the OFR. See the problem?
     
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  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Jovanovic had 12 yelllows (including one 2CT), Barton had 7 (six to Germany, including a 2CT) and Conger had a 90+7' red card to a substitute who came on about 5 minutes earlier.

    Sounds like there's some fun stuff to go watch from the first day of the men's tournament.
     
  9. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Somewhat off-topic, but it looks like the Olympic replays are on Peacock starting at 5 AM CT the morning after the live matches are played. So for example, Brazil-Germany will be available on Peacock at 5 AM CT Friday. Gives me something to watch on my day off tomorrow!
     
  10. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Brazil vs. Germany, Ivan Barton [VAR: Fù Míng]

    26' - SPA vs. DOGSO?
    https://streamable.com/91w59l

    35' - Violent Conduct?
    https://streamable.com/p7icq9

    +46' - Penalty to Brazil (handling)
    https://streamable.com/7id9li

    63' - Second Yellow Card to Germany no.8 (SPA/Reckless)
    https://streamable.com/yt6atl

    89' - Potential penalty to Brazil (tripping / charging)
    https://streamable.com/3zrs6s
     
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  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    100% correct.

    I don't think so and I don't even like the foul going against Germany there, but Richarlison's reaction probably pushed it in that direction.

    Correct.

    Correct. Though mechanics can be debated.

    I don't see it from that clip. Barton also panics a bit by saying there was a push to justify the DFK coming out, but he needed to find a way to get out of the handball and I think you can say there is a foul (just not a push).

    If those are the 5 big KMIs, looks like he did very well.

    I have heard Jovanovic was perhaps not quite as lucky--or good.
     
  12. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    At least in this scene, "not quite as lucky" sums it up well.

    https://streamable.com/1fzo31
     
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  13. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Agree - he solved those five incidents as I would have. Would only add that the instant cards at 63' were actually necessary for managing the game, and a much better choice than dogmatically waiting for Arnold to get up, letting everything inflame around him.

    Barton did well overall, would recommend watching in full this very challenging game. The Salvadorian ref smartly managed to guide everyone through the match, keeping control and preventing the always-brewing big confrontation.
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now that I think about it, I guess the big issue here is the first caution on the 2CT. It just registered that 35’ is the incident in question. I think Barton gave that yellow for the foul by the German, not for the “accidental stomp.” And I just don’t see it. The foul seems like it’s on Brazil. Do I have that wrong?

    A player must know he’s on a yellow and that’s not an excuse for the second one. But when evaluating the overall performance if the first caution of a 2CT is wrong, that’s relevant.
     
  15. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    I am >95% sure Barton reacts to the stamp. His whistle is responding at exactly that moment, and he makes a small 'cutting the grass' gesture, which seems definitely to react to the stamping.

    Deliberately stamping on an opponent with the ball not in question is not always a RC nowadays, too (I remember an incident involving Makkelie in an Eredivise game last season where KNVB, following the UEFA line, strongly supported him giving a YC in some kind of similar situation).
     
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  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough.
     
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  17. elonpuckhog

    elonpuckhog Member

    Dec 29, 2009
    I'm curious about an incident right before halftime in the ARG - AUS match. As I was only paying half attention, I might not have all the facts correct, but this is my understanding. Ball is out of play for a corner. There is the normal pushing and shoving, ref blows, talks to a couple of players, then decides to caution one player per team. The ARG player is already on a caution, so he walks. ARG plays down a man for the rest of the match.

    Watching the replay, I didn't see anything that rises to the level of a caution. Perhaps the cautions were for dissent? They certainly didn't seem needed at that point (again, I was only paying half attention so maybe I'm wrong, but the game didn't seem overly hot at that point).

    I've seen other refs in similar situations only card the player without a card when they would normally card both. What are your thoughts on carding both players when one is on a yellow? For me, I'm either carding both or neither.
     
  18. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Women's Tournament Matchday 2 (July 24)

    Chile – Canada
    R: Esther Staubli (SUI)
    AR 1: Katrin Rafalski (GER)
    AR 2: Susanne Kueng (SUI)
    4O: Maria Rivet (MRI)
    VAR: Muhammad Bin Jahari (SIN)
    AVAR: Abdulla Al Marri (QAT)

    China – Zambia
    R: Melissa Borjas (HON)
    AR 1: Shirley Perello (HON)
    AR 2: Chantal Boudreau (CAN)
    4O: Lucila Venegas (MEX)
    VAR: Abdulkadir Bitigen (TUR)
    AVAR: Nicolas Gallo (COL)

    Sweden – Australia
    R: Edina Alves (BRA)
    AR 1: Neuza Back (BRA)
    AR 2: Monica Amboya (ECU)
    4O: Salima Mukansanga (RWA)
    VAR: Tiago Martins (POR)
    AVAR: Mahmoud Ashour (EGY)

    Japan – Great Britain
    R: Anastasia Pustovoitova (RUS)
    AR 1: Ekaterina Kurochkina (RUS)
    AR 2: Sanja Rodak (CRO)
    4O: Ndidi Madu (NGR)
    VAR: Bibiana Steinhaus-Webb (GER)
    AVAR: Chris Penso (USA)

    Netherlands – Brazil
    R: Kate Jacewicz (AUS)
    AR 1: Kyoung Min Kim (KOR)
    AR 2: Seul Gi Lee (KOR)
    4O: Yoshimi Yamashita (JPN)
    VAR: Erick Miranda (MEX)
    AVAR: Pawel Raczkowski (POL)

    New Zealand – USA
    R: Stephanie Frappart (FRA)
    AR 1: Manuela Nicolosi (FRA)
    AR 2: Michelle O'Neill (IRL)
    4O: Laura Fortunato (ARG)
    VAR: Marco Guida (ITA)
    AVAR: Adil Zourak (MAR)
     
  19. Mikael_Referee

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    https://streamable.com/1fzo31
     
  20. Scrabbleship

    Scrabbleship Member

    May 24, 2012
    It looks like he warned several players / everyone in the area not to hold before the ball is in play. Two players kept holding so he figured that'll be an easy caution except he doesn't realize until after the fact the ARG player is already on a card.
     
  21. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah that was such an oh crap moment on his face.
     
  22. Englishref

    Englishref Member

    Jul 25, 2004
    London, England
    Yep, saw the highlights of this game, and he definitely went in aiming to give cheap YCs without somehow realising he'd booked the Argentinian player 45 seconds earlier. Looked a mess. Pretty sure in hindsight he'd have chosen not to do that had he realised the Argentinian player was booked.

    Things didn't get much better for him straight after half time as he went to book someone and realised he didn't have his YC so had to go to the 4O to borrow his!

    Not a game I reckon he'll want to remember...!
     
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  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is going to be fascinating to watch how Jovanovic responds both at this tournament (if he gets a chance) and in UEFA going forward. Quite simply, that is the type of moment and game that can break a referee. He's reached the Olympics, after FO duties at the EUROs, has his moment to shine at a FIFA event and has a poor game puncuated by an "unforgiveable" mistake that was entirely of his own making.

    This is where so many of the off-the-field intangibles like character, integrity, perserverance, humility, etc., come into play. Anyone can blow a whistle. And anyone can make a mistake. How he reacts, responds and hopefully recovers from a situation like this plays a huge role in whether or not he's toiling in the Europa League for the next few years before fading off the scene or if he's doing late round UCL matches and whistling at the next EURO. The UEFA graveyard is littered with the names of referees who made it to about the exact place Jovanovic is now without ever making that final leap to being a trusted UCL knockout referee and EURO/WC referee. This is now a fork in the road for him.
     
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  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I'm curious how much this debacle by Jovanovic will really matter going forward in his refereeing career at UEFA.

    How much does UEFA care that he screwed up an Argentina vs. Australia U23 match?

    Obviously, the conversation would be different if this was a CL match or CL qualifier match or a Euro World Cup qualifier match.

    We saw Irmatov practically invent a new law at a Confederations Cup in Brazil and he not only went to the World Cup the following year, but went to another one as well.

    The Olympic Football tournament is in a weird zone of importance. It kind of matters, but it doesn't because they don't typically send the highest referees from each confederation. They send more of the next guys up.
     
  25. Mi3ke

    Mi3ke Member

    Oct 18, 2011
    New Mexico
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be honest, neither do I.

    Cheers, Mi3ke
     
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