"It's really shocking that a head of state who has a seat in the United Nations can say such a thing," said Jose Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission, the executive body of the European Union. He said the speech "calls our attention to the real danger of that regime having an atomic bomb." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/14/AR2005121402403.html
I'd also like to say that while most of what that Nekounam is saying is based on bitterness towards Israel, there is a point to what he's saying somewhere if you read between the lines. I personally find it embarrassing to compare Europe's post-war treatment of the jews to that of the stateless Roma people, notably. It seems no-one ever speaks up for them. That said there is no excuse for Holocaust deniers.
And I believe that there's an ongoing saga of some guy in Germany imprisoned for this. The whole point of this thread is, holocaust denial is mainstream in the middle east. And the usual Iranian suspects here have validated that. This is one reason that I have a hard time being optimistic about Iraq after we leave. You can't just transplant good sense into people saturated with hate.
And when they dove in to the realm of garbage and bigotry, their colleagues promptly isolated them for the crackpots that they are. Tell Dan Loney that you think David Irving is an esteemed historian. Really, it was quite fun the last time someone did so.
So 6 million Jews didn't die, that's awesome!! Where are they at, though?? Hanging out with the 6000 who didn't show up to work on 9/11 I guess?? FWIW, I don't think Holocaust denial should be illegal. Even if you accept that bigotry should be grounds for imprisonment (which I don't), it's theoretically possible to be a Holocaust denier without being anti-Semitic (not that any Holocaust deniers aren't, of course, just that it's possible in theory).
Being saturated with hate isn't the only explanation for it though. If you grew up learning that 2 plus 2 equals 10, it'll be hard to accept that it doesn't later. But change has to come from within, they don't need us telling them that holding such views on the holocaust isn't acceptable. It would be great to see an Iranian poster on here criticise Iranian leaders for a change. I guess that's my main problem with that part of the world (and I include Israel): there's an enormous lack of self-criticism.
First of all thanks for the info. I didn't realize that it was a crime to deny the holocaust in some countries. As for Irving, however, perhaps my memory is faulty but was he criminally prosecuted for denying the holocaust? IIRC, he lost a libel/slander lawsuit in England against an Emory professor not too long ago....during which his views were ridiculed...but was he criminally prosecuted elsewhere?
That's when he sued wotshername who wrote a book about him being a nazi sympathiser wasn't it? I looked it up, he was fined in Germany in 1992 Irving when a Munich court ruled that he had violated hate crime laws by asserting that Auschwitz gas chambers were fakes built after the war to attract tourists to Poland. It was only 10,000 marks though (about 5,000 USD)
He sued Professor Deborah Lipstadt....who teaches at Emory University here in Atlanta. It was fairly significant news here....because of the local ties and because of the more stringent burdens put on the defendant in libel cases in the U.K. Despite that burden, Lipstadt still won.
I saw his response on Lehrer last night. You could see him starting to swell with anger the more he talked.
Actually according to a susubsequent poster he was; but I didn't say so... I just reacted to an Irving-inclusive list of accomplished historians who held high academic posts... I believe the lawsuit was a sort of landmark in that the deniers chose the optimal venue to try to get a win on the board and lost anyway... I don't actually htink that denail should be illegal anywhere; but I worked in an office with a German woman several years ago who was quite distressed to discover that it is not illegal here. I believe the Ontario law was subsequently overturned...
The most interesting aspect (to me) of the holocaust deniers is why they feel the need. What difference does it make whether some died in gas chambers vs starvation vs being shot ? There is irrefutable evidence that during WW II the German government developed an elaborate system of state-directed genocide against people of a specific religion. Does anyone logically beleive that if the holocaust didn't occur, somehow Israel's existence is lessened ? Or that the Israelis would just pack it up and leave ? For reasons that I (and most Americans) can't fathom, the existence of a bunch of Jews in the Middle East somehow pisses off a certain percentage of Muslims in such a fashion that they do crazy stuff...like deny irrefutable facts, and occasionally blow themselves up.
Re: Huh? Try the Damon-Esquire to English translator on Babelfish. P.S. This was one of his more eloquent posts.
Re: Huh? A petition is being sent to the UN by the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Feel free to sign: http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps...KKJRMoEbIMKPNnHeINKMNnG8IPKXOuEeKJIVMyGiJXJaJ
There used to be. The Japanese government itself denied that it happened at all up until 1990, and alleged that the brothels were run by private contractors from then until 1992. They've only acknowledged responsibility, and even then just 'partial' responsibility, for the last 13 years, and they allege that all compensation issues for it were solved via treaty in 1965 despite the fact that the agreement did not include the PRC, ROC, or DPRK. There's a reason that the mere mention of the words 'comfort women' is enough to make a Korean fighting mad. They've got a pretty legitimate beef, considering that the issue of the 위안부 is likely to never get solved.
Wikipedia comes through. Also, I don't know about you, but the above description definitely reminds me of certain posters.
Re: Huh? Translation: Jews killed the injuns, took their diamonds, then invested the proceeds into taking over the world banking system, which they now use for world domination.
Re: Huh? Wait a second...didn't the Jews ALREADY control the world banking system ? Did they lose it and have to buy it back again ? Who owned it in the mean time, the Carlyle Group ? Is there a stock play here that we should all get in on ?