The TIVO Challenge: reassessing Marvelle Wynne's game

They're certainly not moot. Imagine what he would be like without them. That said they quickly approach moot when he comes up against an Arjen Robben, Aaron Lennon or, heck, a Landon Donovan who has the pace to least make Wynne's advantage negligible. And while still not moot, even slower players with an advanced understanding of the game can easily expose his tactical naivety.

His physical gifts are a great, I just question if he'll be able to elevate his technical skills and game awareness to even the modest level that would allow him to use those physical gifts to any effect at higher levels. I hope he can.

 

uuuuuuummmmmm...... many of are midfeilders not just HAD horrible crosses and passes, but they usually do that all the time and for people to point out wynne it's pretty freaking ridiculous and just let's you people's soccer IQ

 

Aww, I miss the days of posting while drunk.

First, whether our midfielders can cross adequately is irrelevant to a discussion about Wynne. What would be relevant would be how his crossing stacks up against Cherundolo's and Spector's. The answer: not well. Not well at all.

Second, I don't think anybody doubts that Wynne's athleticism is a major asset and is truly world class. The question is if it's enough to make up for his short comings.

 

I meant more in the "But how else was the play, Mrs. Lincoln" sense. Some people are arguing that the rest of his game is so irretrievably flawed that his physical gifts aren't relevant because he'll never make it as a full-fledged international. I'm agnostic. I don't think he's there for this cycle, but I'm not ready to write him off yet.

 

I am very Mike McCarthy'ish on this - a coach can't defend his players mental mistakes as theirs and not his by claiming to have told these particular players not to make them.

And what he meant by that is this, "No matter how often you tell someone not to do something, you keep telling the same thing until it is learned".

MLS soccer in general is very poor fundamentally, so much of this is on Wynne's MLS coaches.

However, the guy looked ready for prime time after a few weeks with Nowak and Kubik at the Olympics.

If he looks less ready under Bradley, Arena, Carver or whoever else, then that coach is indeed responsible for his shortcomings.

When he signed with MLS after the 2005 U-20 WC, he claimed not to be ready for Europe.

Four years later, he is still not ready for Europe and, at this pace, he may never be.

But I wish someone somewhere took a chance on him.

 

Im actually not concerned with players getting caught upfield per se. I just wasnt happy with how he read the game even when he was in position. You want defenders who force the attackers into the positions that the defenders want them in.. not nescessarily to shut them down, but to control where they can find space. I just felt that Wynne wasnt able to do that, and he was giving the attacker options that you expressly dont want them to have.

Ideally you want your outside backs channeling attackers into the corner flag or moving away from goal. If I were to watch the game again (need a copy of it to do that) Id be looking to see how often he is able to turn his man toward those desired areas, and how often his man is able to advance himself or the ball with ease toward the goal. My sense is that Wynne took up postions that allwed his man to many opportunities to move toward the goal, when he wasnt caught upfield because he took up positions that didnt deny the right types of movements.

 

When a fullback ventures forward - as he should in the 4-4-2 practiced by Bradley - his spot in defense is taken usually either by a defensive midfielder or by a rotating centerhalf (whose own normal spots may need to be taken by a defensive midfielder).

So, what you don't want is your fullback walking back at a leisurely pace but, at the same time, you can't expect him to be at two places at once.

 

No doubt Marvel's speed and strength is what allows him to even be in the mix at this level. He also seems to be a player this is going to give his best, and is a team player, attributes that are also important. About two years ago I watched him in a pre-game warm-up with Edu where they were juggling the ball back and forth to each other with 1 and 2 touches. I was surprised how much Marvel struggled with this and kind of felt bad for him. But, it was clear he was working on improving a weakness as he was listening to the tips Edu was giving him and kept trying. Credit to him for caring more about improving than how he might look in front of a pre-game audience.

He wasn't the worst against Honduras or the reason the US lost. It wouldn't bother me if he starts against El Salvador. I don't see him going to SA or anything like that, but maybe he can make a case for himself in 2014. Maybe his touch has improved and obviously he has some skill or he wouldn't be in MLS and with the USMNT, but in general I still see him as tentative and a bit slow to bring the ball under control. Same with recognizing situations on the pitch and reacting to them. Makes it difficult to play quickly that way. But, no doubt he can make up ground once he kicks it in gear. I' have no problem cheering him on when he plays for the US, even if he does make me a bit nervous.

 

took cherundolo a while to be good at crossing, as a matter of fact, i would say that he has gotten more skilled in his last years, and yes, spector is great at crossing but as a defender lacks many things, so if we are gonna compare him with others this debate will never end, plus, that isn't most people's argument, they are saying that he sucked and he really didn't! SACHA sucked, rogers sucked, Jimmy sucked!

 

He's not ready for S Africa, but I'm glad he's still in the mix. He's 23. Defenders often improve their understanding of the game and defensive positioning in their 20s. This was a low risk way to get him some minutes in a position where we have good options for S Africa.

I wonder if USSF could set him up with a positioning specialist coach to work on just that part of his game -- sort of like some athletes who benefit from a sports psychologist. With a few tweaks, he could quickly turn into an amazing asset for the squad next cycle. (And without, he shouldn't be on the field.)

 

With his workrate and athleticism, I wonder if he'd be useful to mark a single star player out of the game. Forget all the positioning stuff, just stick with ******** and leave the rest to your teammates. Has he ever been in that position?

 

Ahhhh, Marvelle Wynne. If only we could have gotten you into Ajax's youth academy when you were 14 or 15, what a difference it could have made in your life and career.

I'd wager that he has as much pure athletic talent as any player in the US pool, but his skill current level and tactical acumen are just too low for International soccer.

 

I think the real frustration with Wynne is that he makes fundamental defensive mistakes. He does not play a basic give and go pass very well. He watches the initial pass instead of dropping to cut off the return pass. In addition, he dives in at the wrong time much to much for my liking. He did that at least twice against Honduras and the attacking player blew by him. If Lennon gets behind him, he's going to be real hard to catch.

 

That's what Frankie Hejduk did against Luis Figo in that WC'02 US opener.

Figo would fake Frankie out of his shorts but, a second later, Frankie would be right back in front of him.

The Portuguese coach screwed up a tad by letting Luis pick up the ball that high and not closer to the penalty box but that was his game and Frankie did his job that day.

His touch has improved but this is something that his college coaches - at least, by the time it was clear he was going pro - should have spent countless hours on.

Covering positionally is something that needs to be taught.

But juggling the ball requires technique and repetition.

The fact that it was Mo Edu "teaching" him is a pretty effin' sad commentary.

 

figo realized after 3 minutes he better switch sides...

cherundolo isn't dead yet, so he'll play unless his bundesliga form is terrible...

and speaking of frankie...the odds are he might be on the roster, given lack of alternatives

 

Then why hasn't it already been addressed? Defending a give and go correctly is something he should have been (and probably was) taught as a youth soccer player. But he's always had his speed to fall back on, he could simply run the player down. Unfortunately, at the international level there are players he can't give a 5 to 10 yard head start to and still catch.

 

wynne played at ucla and had access to the best of college coaching...

soccer instinct and iq are learned in ones formative years, not after you've been playing for 10 years or more

 

He lacks Wynne's speed, but he reads the game a hell of a lot better than Wynne does. That's the reason Spector's at West Ham and Wynne is at Toronto F.C.

 

Just for fun..

EPL speed rankings contest by Nike.

 

Although the bit of the leprechaun in me has always admired Mick McCarthy, I am not quite as certain as you regarding his philosophy. Mick has struggled more than occasionally with some hard headed laddies. For example, who can forget Keano going back to the auld sod without having stepped on the field in '02.
per the easy to find account at Wikipedia: McCarthy took the nation to the 2002 World Cup held in Korea and Japan. However, their tournament was overshadowed by a very public and bitter spat between McCarthy and the team's star player Roy Keane, who was sent home without having kicked a ball on the eve of the tournament. The conflict occurred after Keane had questioned the quality of the preparations and facilities the team were using

and
Criticism of McCarthy in the media became increasingly intense after a poor start to Ireland's qualifying campaign for Euro 2004. In particular, his persistence with several players and tactics that some perceived to be inadequate did him damage, as did a 4–2 away defeat to Russia and a 2–1 home defeat to Switzerland. Under mounting pressure, McCarthy resigned from the post on 5 November 2002.
The areas in bold, btw appear to be criticisms levied by some toward the Bobster.

Although selfishly, I wish someone would take a chance on him, too, it would have to take a brave coach indeed to contemplate Wynn's tactical decisionmaking and not realize that criticism toward the coach would not be forthcoming. We have heard it suggested that something might have been missing in Freddy's tactical develoopment. It might be said the same toward Marvell.

 

Statistics just don't tell the whole story.

Poor positioning, poor anticipation, leads to numerous continuation of plays, space to exploit, extra attention from the CB's to help cover for him....he may give up an extra 30 meters of space he didn't need to give up, opening up space for the opponents midfield, or dragging one of our CM's out of position, and his marker makes a square pass and the play continues.

None of that shows up in your 'stats', but it is conceding possession or build up to dangerous plays or taking away from the overall effectiveness of the team.

If our RM has to play hesitantly or less offensively cause he's constantly concerned about Wynne.....how does THAT show up in the stats? The slightest hesitation or not playing with confidence can alter an entire play.

The guy is NOT ready from a decision making perspective. Period. Sorry.

 

Actually, it's something that his first ever youth coach at the AYSO level should have addressed. And its something that a player should work on in their own free time, juggling in the yard, practicing one touch passing against a wall, ect.

A couple years ago I was privy to an interview with Thierry Henry. He spoke about his time at the Clairfontaine Academy in France. He remembered how boring it was, all the repetition. Hundreds upon hundreds of repetitions trapping a ball with the outside of the foot, inside of the foot, chest, ext. It wasn't until he left the academy that he realized just how much farther along he was as a player than everyone else.

There are far too many youth coaches in this country that are more concerned with teaching tactics at an early age than they are with just teaching basic technique. Why? Because the youth soccer culture in this county is obsessed with winning.

 

but no one is saying that his speed makes up for everything else.

this ^ is what some people, including me, are saying.

 

none of us will know unless we ask him, but it doesn't appear that it has been addressed. perhaps he is a slow learner, perhaps he'll never get better, perhaps he will. there are a lot of question marks about his game, but, there are also some glimmers of hope that suggest that maybe there's something there. maybe someday.

 

Top speed :

--------------w/out & with the ball

Agbonlahor - 21.1 MPH - 20.8
CRonaldo - 21 ----------20.7
Rooney - 20.8 ----------20.9
Walcott - 20.5----------20.6
Adebayor - 20.6---------20.4
Torres - 20.5------------20.4
Bentley - 19.6-----------21.3
A.Young - 20.6----------20.4
Martins - 20.5-----------20.1
Lennon - 20.6-----------19.6

Now, who wants to convert it to the 40 yard time as they do in the NFL?

Mike, not Mick.



OK, the theory doesn't always work.